I read the interview earlier this morning. I laughed about the desccription of all of the sickly looking people in health food stores because I had noticed the same thing years ago in the food co-op, people using their last remaining strength to carry a couple of pounds of tofu home. I had no idea soy was once grown only for industrial uses (see links). If anyone has ever tried the soy products trying to imitate meat, the industrial waste link should seem obvious.

Anyway, I've bought less than 5 lbs of processed soy in my life, including the 2 lb faux turkey on sale two years ago. This total doesn't include soy milk which I no longer drink since lactose reduced organic cow milk has become available. Even when I was a vegetarian, tofu was a last resort rather than a first choice for alternative protien. I always thought soy was pretty awful and am glad to have some authority to justify my feeling that it just can't be good for you.

Only High Sodium Soy Sauce goes into this gut.....that I'm aware of anyways.
Just like Hi-Fructose corn syrup it'll eventually be in everything we eat & drink.

Interesting that rabbits and birds will go for leaves and stems but leave mature green pods/seeds alone. Seems to me that soya figured a way to keep herbivores away, at least in its reproductive stages.

I have a new lady friend who has subsisted on soy products and who has been undergoing reconditioning from me away from soy products in such quantities, even the organic ones. Hope she doesn't read this thread. :)

Good info - rabbits & birds won't touch it. I wonder if it could be used as a rabbit deterrent in my garden? At last, a good use for soy!

Anything you're willing to share about this new lady friend, Marshall? ((Nosey, nosey, nosey.))

Ofcourse he happened to mention that he has a new lady friend, Althea...he wants us to know...details please.

LOL, now you done it Marshall.
Alfie, I'll get back about that sodium benzo-ate.

How come I get to go confessional over my private love life while the rest of you choose to play possum? Huh? Huh?

She's a lovely woman of nearly appropriate age and with a similar educational background as mine; intelligent and inquisitive and affectionate and very private. There! Is that better?

That'll do! I'm happy for you Marshall (and her too). :~)))

What would you like to know?

I couldn't dig up much dirt on sodium benzoate, apparently it's fairly benign healthwise but the good news is that manufacturers can't add but a very tiny amount to food (as a preservative) because it does impart a bad after taste if over done.

Here is a link that might be useful: NaBenzoate (1 of many info sources)

This is the sodium benzoate dirt I'm referring to. But perhaps you needn't worry, not being in pre-school anymore :-).

http://nutrition.ucdavis.edu/briefs/Issues/JulAug04.htm

Food dyes related to hyperactivity in preschoolers

With all of the processed snack foods currently available on the market, many parents wonder whether certain artificial ingredients might be harmful for their young children. Some clinical studies suggest that food additives, specifically dyes and preservatives, might have adverse effects on the behavior of young children. However, most of these studies have focused on the effects among of children with attention deficit-hyperactivity disorder or other behavioral problems (ADHD). Thus, the implications for the general population are unclear. To date, no studies have examined the question, using a carefully controlled clinical trial in a population-based sample. The purpose of this study was to determine whether food dyes and a preservative (sodium benzoate) influence behavior of 3-year old children.

The study design involved a randomized, controlled, double-blind clinical trial. The sample was randomly recruited from the population of all 3 year-olds who were born between 1994-1996 and living on the Isle of Wright, U.K. From a total eligible population of 2878 children, 277 completed the clinical trial. The clinical trial lasted 4 weeks, during which time all children were given diets free of artificial colorings and preservatives. During the second and fourth weeks, the children drank a mixed juice that contained either 20 mg of artificial colorings and 45 mg sodium benzoate (active challenge) or only juice (placebo). Thus, all children participated in both the active challenge and placebo phases. In a pilot test of the methods, adults who drank the two beverages were unable to tell which one contained the artificial ingredients. Parents completed questionnaires weekly on changes in their childs behavior to assess the level of inattention, hyperactivity, fidgetiness, and impulsivity, which are all behaviors captured on the Weiss-Werry-Peters Activity scale (WWPA). In addition, research psychologists used the WWPA to assess the childs behavior during a free play session in the clinic each week The overall design of the study also took into account whether or not the children had hyperactive behavior or allergies (determined by skin prick testing) at the beginning of the study.

Parents reported greater increases in hyperactivity behavior during the active challenge phase, compared to the placebo phase (pConclusions/Implications: The authors concluded that artificial food colorings and sodium benzoate have an adverse effect on child behavior, detectable only by parents. More studies are needed in other populations to confirm these findings.
Note: Health professionals may anticipate some questions from parents about food additives and behavior, due to an article based on this study that will soon appear in a popular parenting magazine.

Source: Bateman B, Warmer JO, Hutchinson E, Dean T, Rowlandson P, Grant C, Grunday J, Fitzgerald C, and Stevenson J. The effects of a double-blind, placebo controlled, artificial food colourings and benzoate preservative challenge on hyperactivity in a general population sample of preschool children. Arch Dis Child 2004; 89: 506-511

Where is 'the Isle of Wright, UK'

Has anybody read the link Marshall cited? Mercola is talking about highly refined products, soy protein and soy oil, and at one point says:

I personally eat old-fashioned fermented soy products such as miso, tempeh, natto, shoyu and tamari and believe they can be healthy in the context of a varied diet. Tofu is a precipitated product and less healthy, but I still enjoy it occasionally at vegetarian potlucks. Edamame--the green immature soybeans--contains fewer of the toxins found in the mature beans and so can be eaten occasionally. People who are not allergic or sensitized to soy can consume these whole soy products safely at the levels eaten traditionally in Asia, which is to say in small amounts as condiments, not staples.

Tofu is good when it's cooked well.

Yeah, I marinate cubed firm to extra firm organic tofu and use in a variety of dishes, both hot and cold. I also use fermented products and produce (when rabbits allow) edame soybeans each summer for myself and customers.

Paul, I read the article. Didn't you read my post?

I like tempeh & miso. If there is tofu in something when I'm dining out or at a friends, I eat it.

Miso soup is my fav at the local sushi bar...although I'll leave the squarish tofu chunks in the bottom of the bowl.

Marshall I'm glad for you (the lady) (...of nearly appropriate age? Tell us you're not trying to intrigue us further...)

The argument that soy formula makes a bad diet for babies, and that middle-aged western men shouldn't eat soy food entrees twice a week - those I'll buy, but the evidence doesn't support the belief that soy is evil. Saying so - at least that seemed the tone taken on this thread - seemed quite a leap, one I suspect has a pro-meat agenda. A leap-taking agenda. We eat tofu a couple times a month, soy sauce often - Bragg's when we can get it, although it's very salty for a condiment with no salt in the ingredients list - and tempeh occasionally. Miso - blechh. I respect foods that are thousands of years old, though. Same with cheese. Overall I think it's a good thing that westerners are looking to forms of protein other than meat. Protein is way overrated in the western diet anyway - an idea from Diet for a Small Planet that made sense and has stuck in my memory (unlike the recipes).

Paul, let's just say that I married and had children young. I am a rather vigorous senior citizen with wide ranging interests and experiences. My grown children would rather see me with some grandmotherly type close to my 68 years and settle down. OTOH, my "interests" are still those of a younger gentleman. In truth I had sworn of serious dating and such more than 5 years ago. Who can predict when and with whom one loses his heart?

There likely are agenda directed against soya; but given that agribusiness dominates the field, I don't see this sort of criticism coming mainly from meat-producers. In Asia there are hundreds, if not thousands of varieties of soy bean, many cultivated for specific uses in specific places and seasons. OTOH major Westernized commercial production relies on relatively few "industrial grade" varieties now increasingly engineered to withstand assaults by bugs and herbicides. Human palatability can be enhanced by food technologists generating the many products containing soya.

In past years I posted material reporting unexpected mutations in gm soya, toxic levels discovered before the varieties were commercialized. There are folks who react badly to soya products even at "acceptable" levels of components known to induce allergic and other reactions.

I didn't think the article had a pro-meat agenda. I understood it as anti-advertising, pro-facts regarding the health claims of soy products. There are many people who believe if one doesn't eat meat, then they must eat soy, as if there are no other sources of protien. That perception is very good for the soy business, but not realistic.

Happy birthday Marshall! News gets around, you know. You may be a senior citizen but you'll never be an old geezer. And here's to romance at any age.

Yours, and your post Althea, remind me we live in very different situations. We're far removed from agribusiness here, let alone much in the way of arable land, and even further from health food stores. Being unemployed (temporarily I hope) also gives me lots of room to think about how and why the world is going to hell in a handcart. Overconsumption of meat is one the reasons IMO. The 'soy business' is news to me - in fact I've learned a lot from your posts.

Our choices at the grocery store are very limited - for example we can buy cheddar and mozzarella cheese any time of year, but brie is only available at Christmas. Forget about feta or gorgonzola or radicchio or whole nuts in the shell (I'm starting to get teary-eyed). Thus the suspicion about underlying agendas. Tofu and tempeh are treats for us.

Paul, thanks for the sentiments and my condolences to you over unemployment. I was last unemployed in 1974 and vowed never to be put in that situation again. So my long period of self-employment with all those attendent hazards to personal and family security.

I commiserate over that lack of choices and will refrain from gloating over the abundance of food and other choices here in California. If there is no local demand, you won't find much choice. So grow your own, encourage local producers, and in a pinch buy on-line.

I also run a organic market garden (urban farm) to assure my own supply of seasonal produce and hopefully make some money while selling healthy food directly to individuals, families, caterers, health clinics and other specialty outlets.

Anyone want a link to our website, send me an e-mail. I'd rather not post the link here without the permission of the site's owner.

Gardeners never get old...they just go to seed.
Happy birthday, Marshall- hope you had a great one! Congrats on the new lady friend!
Cheers- Sue

Paul, it never occured to me that you wouldn't have all of the foods I take for granted widely availabe. I concur with Marshall's suggestions. Have you thought about starting a market farm if that is feasible?

Also Paul, do you have any interest in meeting a friend of mine who will be traveling to NS this summer? I would have have sent you na email regarding this but, your email address isn't posted on your member page. Mine is.

Althea I'll email you - forgot my address wasn't listed.
When I'm not roaming around these opium dens (GW conversations and forums) I'm in fact working on a plan for a crafts/market garden business. We have fantastic produce and wild foods in season; what we need is for somebody to raise cows so we can make cheese.
Marshall if you ever wrote your life story I would surely read it.

Thanks Paul. Good luck with your business. Have you considered goats for milk & cheese? I visited a farm last spring that kept Nubian goats for milk & cheesemaking. They are cool goats, a type I would consider getting if I had to have goats.

I second Marshall's autobiography.

We'll start with chickens. Bantams, I think. But will keep Nubians in mind.
Still meaning to email...

Here's what we had last night:
Tempeh made from organically grown soybeans by Noble Bean, R.R.#1, MacDonalds Corners, Ontario, "Culturing Fine Tempeh since 1979"

What's not to like?

Again, very salty for a product that doesn't list salt as an ingredient.

I'll chime in against soy. I have an autoimmune disease, which my MD says was probably caused by my consumption of soy. I doubted her at first, but did lots of research and kept coming up with the same answers. I cut soy out of my diet (well, I do give into soy sauce on occassion). After being soy free for a little over a year, I feel so much better. Not cured, just feeling better. I can also function on considerably less medication.
This was reason enough for me to give it up.

CarrieTx

pAUL SAID IT RIGHT, SOY, IN IT'S RAW FORM IS AS USLESS AS TITS ON A BOAR,, HOWEVER FERMENTED SOY IS ANOTHER STORY ALTOGETHER, AS IT CONTAINS USEFULL ENZYMES, IS HIGHLY DIGESTIBLE, AND QUITE BENEFICIAL TO ONE'S GUT FUNCTION. BUT ONLY IN A FERMENTED STATE. mISO IS GOOD, TEMPEH IS GOOD, SOY SAUCE IS GOOD, NATTO (FERMENTED SOY CHEESE) IS WAY GOOD , IF YOU CAN STAND THE DOWNRIGHT SNOTTY TEXTURE OF IT, YUCK!!! tHE JAPANESE DON'T EAT FRESH SOY, IT'S ALWAYS FERMENTED, IT'S THE AMERICAN'S WHO MIS-READ THE ROLE OF SOY IN OTHER'S DIETS. FERMENTED FOOD IS GOOD FOR YOU, WEATHER IT'S SAURKRAUT, OR MISO, FRESH SOY IS NOT DIGESTIBLE BY THE HUMAN CONDITION.

Cochiseaz said it right (though it's hard to read all caps, LOL!). Fermented soy is fine, as demonstrated by millions of Asians who've eaten it for hundreds of years (The Chinese hardly seem to be exhibiting infertility problems!). American have totally misused and misunderstood the value of soy (and the dangers of it), using it in everything from soy milk to soy hot dogs, etc. Again, agree with Cochiseaz on that, and the fact that fermented foods are good for you.

I follow the common-sense guidelines to eat no more than 5-10 grams of soy protein a day, and to avoid fake foods such as meat analogues. Americans tend to be protein-manic, which I guess is why concentrated soy protein shows up in so many "foods" where it doesn't belong (that, along with the dangerous anticarb fad).

As a vegetarian/vegan for the past 30 years, I've been asked many times "but where do you get your protein?" and the simplest answer is that protein is in everything; if you are getting enough calories and not eating junk food, you are getting enough protein. Protein is a nonissue for vegetarians, and in fact many of the common chronic diseases can be traced to an overrich diet too high in protein.

In my experience, it is often new vegetarians and people who are trying to accommodate vegetarians who overdo the soy protein thing. I've done a vegan Thanksgiving with a friend for a few years, and she has insisted on having a Tofurkey at least a couple times, in addition to an abundance of wholesome vegan food. If it happens again, I think I will politely turn down the Tofurkey (it is just barely edible, as far as I'm concerned). Last year I had to change the pumpkin pie recipe at the last minute when I heard she was doing the Tofurkey -- from an easy one using tofu to a make-ahead pie using cornstarch; next time I'll look for a recipe using all whole foods. (Or even better, be proactive and start educating her now about overdoing soy.)

My one soy indulgence is White Wave Silk soy yogurt, which is wonderful with breakfast oatmeal and raspberries, but I eat it more as a condiment.

The article below is from Dr. John McDougall's newsletter.

Here is a link that might be useful: McDougall article on soy

Thanks for the interesting perspective and the link to Dr. McDougall article. I convinced my lady friend to stop consuming soy in quantity and believe her general health to be improving.

I am glad to hear a lot of vegetarians dont eat a lot of soy. We (my daughters and I) are turning vegetarian and we do get some of that fake meat when they want to eat a regular meal (like tacos).

How may prefer fresh veggies and fruits to cooked meals? We do tend to do a grazing sort of thing where we 'snack' on veggies or fruit with one 'real' meal only some days.

We hope to take cooking lessons to learn some vegetarian cooking.

Maria

Are'nt soy products just an over-hyped processed food? The Asian
connection is used as a marketing ploy to insinuate it is the reason
for their better health stats.Kinda like the commercials a while
back that showed 110 year old Hunzas(sp?)from the Soviet Union eating
yogurt.

Swanz

I have some first hand experience with the adverse effects of soy. I realized a couple of years ago that I was lactose intolerant. I also have to take thyroid supplements due to Graves disease, that required the removal of my thyroid. Well I had been on the same dose of thyroid medication for almost 2 years, finally had it requlated. And then at my next appointment, about 8 months after switching to soy, my levels were completly out of whack. This led my doctor to run other tests, which came back with upset blood levels. Primarily low platlettes, which function to make blood clot. This is often caused by an auto-immune disfunction, the body actually destroys the platelletes faster then you can make them. Well it just happened that we had the day before my appointment read a medical journal that published a report about soy preventing the absorbtion of thyroid hormones. So my doctor, who I am thrilled to have as she tends to not jump to conclusions and start writing prescriptions, decided to see if quiting the soy would help. In 3 months my thyroid levels regulated. However it took much longer for the autoimmune function to stabalize, almost the better part of a year, but with small improvements almost immediately.

I will occasionally eat things with soy, primarily soy beans or fermented soy products (miso etc), but in very limited quantities. I think all things in moderation is generally a good rule. My problem came from drinking a couple servings of soy milk a day (one with cereal and one with coffee). I also tend to believe that each person will react differently to soy products. It is just good to be aware of possible issues, so that if something comes up medically you can look to solutions that are simpler then taking more medications that most doctors are quick to prescribe.

The hardest thing for me to find an alternative to that doesn't have soy is a good mutli-vitamin. Read your labels, most multi-vitamins these days have the soy isoflavens.

If the maunfacturers had their way we would be eating a product containing:
Sodium Benzoate, Cyclamates, FD & C Red and Yellow, Aspartame, Saturated Fat, artificial flavor, artificial color, stannous fluoride, BHA, BHT, Arsenic, Lead, Mercury,Saccharin, Sugar, Sugar,Sugar,Salt,Salt,Salt.

Didn't you just describe the secret formula for a Big Mac?....after eating one of those there's no avoiding a Big Mac Attack.