There are certainly E. plums wider spaced than those two. Remember that plums ripen over a fairly long period and there will be overlap with that selection, I believe. If you have two varieties, I don't believe self fruitfulness is needed.

Based on Scott's experience, E. plums are much more difficult to protect the fruit than J's down there. I'll let him elaborate. To some degree it's also true here, with E. plums being very attractive to plum curculio compared to the J's.

You may not have that much choice of rootstock but if you get them from the west they could be on St. Julian which probably is not as good for your conditions as Myro, which certainly is good for clay. I have no experience with Krymsk but myro is what the commercial growers use around here and what I usually use as well. Castleton is not a very vigorous variety and you'd be taking a risk by using anything less vigorous than Myro IMO.

I don't know anything in particular about those two plums since I am not growing them, but Stanley is one of the most common here as well. I have found most Euro plums OK as far as curculio goes, but are much harder to deal with brown rot on than the Japanese plums, probably mainly because they are later and so ripening in more prime brown rot season. Make sure to keep them open pruned, and planted in an area with full sun and good air circulation. The Gage types are particularly prone to rot so it is good to avoid them unless you want a lot of work. Castleton being early will also be better on that front. The only downside on those two is there are better tasting plums out there, such as Prune d'Agen aka French Prune, or Coe's Golden Drop.

I haven't found a bad plum rootstock in my soil, some of which is heavily clay. Krymsk has the plus of more dwarfing and the minus of less years of experience so more an unknown. You can keep any plum short if you are serious on the summer pruning.

Scott

Of course, brown rot is not so hard to control if you are willing to run with some modern chemistry- say a squirt or two of Montery Fungus Fighter a month or so before they ripen.

Castlelton is actually a very good plum which gets up extremely high sugar and is the most reliable E. plum that does this here in southern NY state. I find E. plums to be maddeningly inconsistent croppers and some will perform well on one site or year but not on another, and yet Castlelton almost always gives you a crop all the places I manage it.

I haven't tried the ones Scott mentioned and they are not well trialed in the north or southeast to my knowledge, but Scott may know better on that as far as the southeast.

Harvestman, like the Belle Lucrative pear those plums were well-known varieties in the east 50-100 years ago. Agen was a big commercial prune plum and is a parent of Stanley, and its only fault is its relatively small size. It also has some strong modern advocates in the east: Ed Fackler has stated that he thinks its the only European plum worth growing. Coe's has also been widely praised for over a hundred years. It is not as widely adapted however, it needs a long season.

My comments about better tasting were primarily directed at Stanley; I don't know much about Castleton.

I would say brown rot can be controlled, but a spray or two MFF can fail some years, especially if the openness, sun, and circulation are not good. I have had problems in my back orchard which gets too little sun and I have decided to use MFF there in this coming year since my 100% organic approach requires more sprays than I have time for.

Scott

Scott and Harvestman - If you had a pick an "easy plum" to grow (European or Japanese) with minimal spraying, which two varieties would you choose? I had the impression that spring frosts were a major issue with the Japanese plums (equaling many years w/o fruit . . . not exciting). I do love prune plums, but brown rot is also something I am not excited about dealing with . . .

I believe Scott and I would both say Satsuma as the first choice for an easy to grow and delicious plum. The second pick for a J. plum pollinator would be much more difficult, at least for me. You'd definitely want to run with something that bears at a different time.

Scott, I will try to locate the Agen plum on myro and if I succeed, I'll trial it here- I wonder why Cornell lost interest in it and never list it in evaluations. Also, do your E. plums begin rotting more than a month before ripening? I know you haven't used MFF, so how can you be sure about how many applications are necessary?

I've always felt Stanley was mediocre, but not based on picking tree ripe plums as I've never actually grown it because I was directed to Castleton from the get-go.

I should have mentioned that J. plums are more vulnerable to frost than E's because they flower at least a week sooner. Here, in the last 10 years, I haven't lost a crop to frost and the J's have been more reliable because they consistently set fruit.

Lind, I have the same experience as Hman, the Japanese plums are much more reliable overall. Mainly the Euros take a lot of time before they decide they want to fruit, and they may not bear every year. I have never lost Japanese plums due to frost; that is an issue in some climates but not mine. In fact I have never even lost apricots due to frost, and they are even earlier. Japanese plums are also much less prone to rot since they are earlier.

Satsuma is indeed my favorite overall Japanese plum now, its very reliable and productive and tasty. It is mid-season. I don't yet have a top early one but Shiro is probably the one I like the most. Well, Purple Heart is pretty early and I like it more than Shiro, but it is also a red-fleshed plum so for something different Shiro is still a good choice. If you wait a long time to pick them they are quite good. Again it is super reliable/productive. Spring Satin plumcot is also proving excellent for me and its super early; the Satsuma should pollinate it well and I expect it will in turn pollinate a Satsuma, but with crosses like that its hard to be sure.

If I had to grow only Euros or Japanese, I would pick the latter. But, they are different so its like comparing apples and oranges.

Hman, the negative information I have on brown rot comes secondhand, from people posting here and other places about still getting rot in spite of MFF or similar sprays. I don't think it will be that hard for me to control it, but the timing of the spays may be important, and several could be needed.

Scott

Scott:

You really have a very favorable climate in terms of spring frost. Do you know how unusual it is to never lose apricot to spring freeze? Very. There are very few places that can say that outside of California.

What is the closest city to you that would have good climatic data, Baltimore?

Fruitnut, I am in the Baltimore city limits (barely). I may just be in a particularly good spot. If you look at the old maps of 150-200 years ago, the whole area around my house was an orchard, and maybe they knew something. We are on the sides of a hill of a river valley. Even in a "less lucky" spot in the mid-atlantic, things are pretty good here for cots based on reports I have heard.

Scott

I would imagine you could grow most (all?) Euro plums on peach roots?

Scott-

You live in a very mild area. Consider yourself lucky! You rarely go below 0F and you can hit 60F+ almost any month of the year.

Baltimore had a low of 36F in Nov this year and hasn't yet been below 33F in December. That's extremely late for a last freeze. It has been low 20s to upper teens many times here already and I'm really supposed to be 7b to 8a. It has been a week at 28-30F in Modesto where Zaiger works. Last week it was 26F in San Antonio and they average only 20 nights a year below freezing.

I'm sure this year is very favorable in Baltimore compared to normal. But the chances of that happening here is zero.

It also sounds like you are in a favorable micoclimate. A hillside is classic favorable fruit site.

Fruitnut, those sound like the city center temps, we have gotten down to mid-20's where I am (use Lutherville, MD as the best indicator of my climate). That said, the climate is indeed pretty mild here and we tend to avoid the wild spring temperature swings that many parts of the country get. That plus the nice microclimate gives me a good spot for 'cots.

Scott

I have had a Stanley growing for about 4 years now here in suburban MD (outside DC). I am not sure what rootstock it is on, though it is semi-dwarf. Even so, the tree is extremely vigorous (growing on clay, full sun and lots of air). It set early and has kept setting large crops. It is self-fertile. I have found that it is not nearly as attractive to plum curculio as my apples and nectarine tree are; it is also less attractive to oriental fruit moth. But they love nectarines, and it might be a lot more attractive if it is the only tree you grow. Its main problem is the one Scott mentions: brown rot. Here in MD it seems heavy rain comes always at the worst time -- just when you need to spray in early spring, or just as fruit is starting to ripen in late summer. The Stanley gets quite a lot of brown rot. I have not sprayed for this, but may do so next year. Birds and squirrels also like the fruit. I personally am thinking about shifting over to early Japanese plums to avoid some of these problems.

The Stanley is a prune plum, that is, designed for drying, but it tastes pretty good if you let it ripen on the tree -- certainly better than anything in the store. No doubt there are better plums out there, but it is a safe bet if you are prepared to spray for brown rot and get out the pruners each year.