Am I willing to water (irrigation system) and fertilize and mow enough to keep it looking good? Yes.... so why else would this be such an issue.

Then you're fine. Rumor has it that fescue tolerates wear better, but I've found it patches out horribly unless reseeded regularly. KBG isn't quite so good in the wear department, but does fill in areas where it drops out.

I consider my lawn low wear; two people, three dogs. None of us run across it (except sometimes the dogs). No kids. I do walk through it constantly as I'm doing things and don't have any issues.

Nothing will tolerate a constant "path" through it due to soil compaction unless regularly aerated. Period.

You are dissatisfied with your current lawn ? Is the current lawn what the two landscaping companies as well as the local guy recommended ? If you want something else, then plant something else. Fine fescue is not wear tolerant. Nor is it draught tolerant. Rye, in my opinion, looks ugly in a fine KBG lawn in the heat of summer.
Everyone has their opinion. I love the look of my pure Kentucky Bluegrass. This is what an elite KBG lawn can look like in its second year. Moonlight, Bedazalled and Award (Midnight), in the foreground blended into a fine fescue blend in the back where shade prevails. Reason Enough ?
{{gwi:110325}}
Bill Hill

Bill, that is the blend I am seeding, great to see your pic! Was that taken in spring?

Curious what fine fescues you used - that is Plan B if the KBG does not establish in some partially shady spots by next fall.

That's the thing I Just bought 50lb of a KGB blend - 50% bedazzled, 25% each Midnight and Moonlight.

I like the KBG look a lot better - the dark color is great!

Parafly, I think I'm lost. Please explain why you came to this board, why you want to overseed, why you decided to plant KBG, and any other information you can offer, such as if you have dogs, children, the uses of your lawn and how much, if you have shady areas, what you want to accomplish, etc. So sorry that I don't recall everything. You've asked questions on many different threads and I haven't been able to keep up on your coditions and purposes. We've answer the questions but don't necessarily know your reasons for asking them. Also, please tell what state you live in.

Please give us everything here in this thread.

I'm getting confused too. I am getting totally lost as well LOL.

I'm in Massachusetts - Zone 5.

I bought a new house in May. My lawn, basically, sucks. There are areas where its good and areas where it sucks. I want to have a stellar yard -- the best in the neighborhood! I have been struggling and learning all summer where I went from Zero lawn knowledge to quite a bit after reading around here. I decided based largely on this board that I want to have a KBG lawn because of the look of it. I have a sunny property, roughly 13000 - 17000 square feet of lawn- i need to measure it off exactly. I have an irrigation system running on a well.

I want to do it right this year so next year I am setup for a beautiful lawn. I guess now that I am literally 2-3 weeks away from the ideal planting timeframe I am getting a little anxious and want to make sure I do all the right things procedurally, because I want ot make sure I have the best results possible next year.

I have no kids but I do have a dog (who pees in the woods thankfully!). He runs around on the garss and likes to drag sticks on to the lawn which I have to toss back into the forsest but other than that not much traction really except for me walking around there.

I get nervous because I know here are a bunch of lawn-o-philes and a lot of people i have talked to here are trying to dissuade me from killing my lawn and planting only bluegrass. My original goal was to just overseed into the lawn with bluegrass but as I have been reading more and more it seems like while I am putting all this effort into creating a great lawn I would be better of just doing it right the first time around.

Does that make sense? I wouldl be glad to answer any more questions. I just want to do what I need to do to get a good lawn.

So far I've come up with this procedure (now revised with killing the lawn included!)

1. R-Up the lawn
2. R-Up again in a week
3. Rake off all dead material from the property
5. Broadcast Scotts starter fertilizer 2 directions
6. Add Lime to soil (I have a little on the low side of PH)
4. Rent slit seeder
6. Slit-seed in 2 directions with the KBG mix I bought (50% bedazzled, 25% each Midnight and Moonlight) - I have 50 pounds which I think should cover me at a rate of 3lb / 1000.
7. Drive my tractor around the yard with compost and pile and rake 12 yard of compost across the property (to a depth of 1/4")
8. Water the lawn 3x daily for 5 minutes per zone to keep it moist for the first 2 or 3 weeks (untill germinated)
9. Water the lawn 1x daily for 10 - 15 minutes per zone for another week or two
10. Cut back watering to once every other day for 20 minutes per zone, and then after mowing once or twice cut back to every 3 days or so
11. Fertilize with more starter fertillizer about a month after seeding
12. In the spring, apply pre-emergent crabgrass to the lawn (when, in March or so?)

Anyways thats kind of my plan in a nutshell. Keep my fingers crossed I don't have any torrential downpours in the meantime.

7.

Unless you have a herd of kids and/or dogs, I don't think you'll notice much difference in how they wear.

As to the other, I think you answered your own question when you said you were willing to water as much as necessary. If you have a climate for cool season grasses, that is the main determiner between the two, imho.

I've read that TTTF on clay soils can have roots that go down feet, and therefore can be more drought tolerant and need some less water. But, if you don't mind a higher water bill and are in an area that doesn't have watering restrictions, I agree with you that it is hard to beat a straight KBG lawn for appearance. The only other factor that comes to my mind is that I have more disease issues with my bluegrass than my fescue. Of course, good cultural practices can reduce that concern quite a bit. But, fescue is generally less hassle in that regard for me.

Like many lawn choices, it is largely a matter of personal taste.

I've got a well so I dont' fall under water restrictions or hvae an issue with a water bill. Only electricity to operate the pump :)

Plus - If I am not happy with the results, I could always just overseed some Fescue into it,right?

I don't know why anyone would mix TTTF into KBG in MA other than to save money. I do think TTTF is slightly more tolerant of traffic then again it doesn't creep so it's a wash.

You mentioned wanting to have a stellar yard, which you can have with KBG but nothing all that unique about a dark green lawn in massachusettes. I think if you want to have a unique lawn that stops crowds, something like a bent grass would do it. Or for a lower maintenance alternative, a fine fescue blend (CRF & Hard), planted densely, mowed closely will also be a crowd stopper. This would look more like a short pile carpet with all those purty stripes as opposed to the plush ultra dark green of the KBG.

One dog does not heavy wear make. Athletic fields and golf courses use KBG and do just fine.

Three kids, a swingset, a play area, a dog, lots of outside parties and that kind of thing make for heavy wear. I'd call yours light or light-moderate and similar to or less than mine.

KBG is fine.

6-7: If you're going to add a quarter inch atop the soil post-seeding, you want the seed at the soil surface to begin with, not slit-seeded another quarter inch deep. Half an inch down isn't a recipe for failure, but it will delay germination until it can grow up through it and you will have losses.

The compost decays, but not in 2 to 3 weeks.

12: Whenever the forsythia just start to fade in your area is the right time.

Downpours won't matter during most of the steps. Post-RU, the roots are still holding the soil. Those take time to decompose, by which time your new lawn will be doing the job.

My big questions now are:

1. SHOULD I kill of my existing lawn?
2. So if I slit seed I shouldn't spread compost down? Are you saying I should just broadcast the seed out?

I forgot to add in a step there after slit-seeding of rolling over with a light roller to help press the seed in better. The slit seeder I can rent unfortunately is a Classen kind that has a seed hopper and dispurses seed in the front of the unit and then kidn of just rolls over it with the rollers.

You shouldn't need to roll if you're using a slit seeder.

Well, then, I can save that step. I just assumed that the slit seeder I would be renting would only do a halfway decent job of getting the seed to the soil. I guess the cheaper slit-seeders don't actually deposit the seeds in the furrow but just spray in front of the machine and you kind of hope that the grass ends up in the furrow.

Should I not put down compost right away? Maybe do it after 2 - 3 weeks and giving it a chance to germinate?

In my opinion, (1) Of course you want all KBG. If you are thinking bent grass, go talk to the greenskeepers at a few local golf courses first, as I doubt you really want to take on such intensive maintenance. No, you don't want to do TTTF in Massachusetts if you have an irrigation system and a reliable well that you won't run dry irrigating. (2) Yes, you should roundup the existing lawn unless everything existing is completely similar to what you want to plant -- which is probably not the case. (3) I think you should slit-seed after spreading the compost, not before. (4) Two to three weeks until germination is likely optimistic. Think three to five unless the weather is great. (5) Don't drown the seed/seedlings, just keep the soil moist. Grass plants also require air. (6) Note that good seed-to-soil contact will help, so with the relatively small area you are planting, I'd think about running a lawn roller (half filled with water) over the yard after the compost and slit-seed steps (not entirely necessary if you slit seed, but can only help).

Caveat: just my opinions, worth what you paid.

Lawn-o-philes.......I'm flattered.

Let me throw my wrench into the works. For the most part, you're doing too much.

1. Don't RU twice: once will do it. If by chance there's anything left (there won't be) the KBG will out-compete that stuff. Why? Because you're going to fertilize the KBG, and keep it watered.

2. Don't broadcast the 'starter fertilizer' two directions. You run a risk of over-fertilizing that lawn, and that lawn isn't even here yet. If you're sure, just plain sure (and I recognize that you have the 'compulsiveness' to be sure) that you're going to put down HALF AS MUCH each time, well, fine, go ahead. But frankly, if you're that compulsive, aren't you going to be sure to put the fert down evenly the first time around anyway? My guess is 'yes'.

3. You probably don't need the 'straw' or 'compost' layer. That layer is designed for highway crews. It was also, and you gotta give them (the lawn sales contractor guys) credit, a great idea, when one is dealing with your basic lazy no-longer-in-the-mood suburban homeowner who wants to actually attend kid's softball games, go on vacation, and work the overtime, if it's offered.

But you are in the mood. You are not going to walk away from this project. The grass has fertilizer, and the grass will get all the water it needs, when it needs it. You might lose some stems to overcrowding, but you will not lose some stems from drying wilt. We both know that. Skip the straw/compost layer. Get the max grow out of the max stems, stretching for max sun, with nothing in between.

And if you're in zone 5, the pre-emergent goes down end of April.

Get started now. Do a tad less. You want to get started, and we all know you want to get started, so do it. But maximize. It's gonna be great. Keep us advised.

"And if you're in zone 5, the pre-emergent goes down end of April."

Actually, zone 5 only addresses how cold it gets in the winter, not when it starts to get warm in the spring or when it starts to get cool in the fall, or how hot it gets in the summer. It only tells how cold it gets in the winter.

I'm in zone 5 (maybe even zone 6--the maps I've seen aren't very detailed and the one for Utah looks like it has snakes crawling around each other the zones are so intertwined). I think the proper time for pre-emergent around here is sometime in early to mid May, depending on when the snow melts off.

BillHill,
Nice Lawn. I have the same question for you as paulinct.

What fine fescues did you use for the shady areas of your Moonlight, Bedazalled and Award (Midnight) lawn.

Thanks

"go talk to the greenskeepers at a few local golf courses first, as I doubt you really want to take on such intensive maintenance."

Why would he do that? he's not making a golf course.
Not mowing at an eigth inch, not concerned with speed of play or any of that.

Because tall fescue is a more wear tolerant grass type than bluegrass, I might have been inclined to agree with the landscapers you spoke with. However, you have don't any wear issues to be concerned about at all, so scratch what they said. Besides, it isn't as though bluegrass is not wear tolerant at all because it is, and quite a bit so. Also, the best part about bluegrass is its ability to recover, which is much more than tall fescue, because it can replace itself while tall fescue cannot. Once tall fescue does endure damage it is gone for good (as was mentioned above).

Add Lime to soil (I have a little on the low side of PH)
I'm hoping a soil test has confirmed the need for lime and how much to apply.

Slit-seed in 2 directions with the KBG mix I bought (50% bedazzled, 25% each Midnight and Moonlight)
Wondering why this ratio of seeds

6-7: If you're going to add a quarter inch atop the soil post-seeding, you want the seed at the soil surface to begin with, not slit-seeded another quarter inch deep. Half an inch down isn't a recipe for failure, but it will delay germination until it can grow up through it and you will have losses.
I tried to explain this in another thread. You can topdress with compost and slit seed afterward. The seeds will be in perfect position.

Should I not put down compost right away? Maybe do it after 2 - 3 weeks and giving it a chance to germinate?
Dismiss this thought LOL.

Do kill twice because you're going to miss plenty the first time plus there are hard to kill weeds that will need it. The weeds are not transcolating this time of year, so they won't so easily go.

Like Philes says, fertilize only once preferably with broadcast spreader rather than a drop spreader. Broadcast spreader reduces the possibility of streaks/missed rows.

But you do want to topdress. It will help retain moisture among other benefits.

I'm amending your scheduled plan.......

1. R-Up the lawn
2. R-Up again in a week
3. Rake off all dead material from the property
4. Drive my tractor around the yard with compost and pile and rake 12 yard of compost across the property (to a depth of 1/4")
5. Broadcast Scotts starter fertilizer 2 directions
6. Add Lime to soil (I have a little on the low side of PH)
7. Rent slit seeder
8. Slit-seed in 2 directions with the KBG mix I bought (50% bedazzled, 25% each Midnight and Moonlight) - I have 50 pounds which I think should cover me at a rate of 3lb / 1000. (Still wondering why this ratio. Also, measure your lawn area before seeding so you know for certain how much to apply.)
9. Water the lawn 3x daily for 5 minutes per zone to keep it moist for the first 2 or 3 weeks (untill germinated)
10. Water the lawn 1x daily for 10 - 15 minutes per zone for another week or two
11. Cut back watering to once every other day for 20 minutes per zone, and then after mowing once or twice cut back to every 3 days or so
12. Fertilize with more starter fertillizer about a month after seeding
13. In the spring, apply pre-emergent for crabgrass to the lawn (when, in March or so?)

Hi Parafly9,

I am just repeating what I have learned recently here and on another board, so if I am wrong about this hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in, but here goes: The reason your locals are suggesting a mix of different varieties is that this is what has been done for a long time to best protect against disease outbreaks - if you encounter a disease that affects say bluegrass but not fescue or rye but not bluegrass, you won't lose the whole lawn if you have all three.

This is still good advice if disease protection is all you are looking for and you don't care how patchy it looks (and it sounds like you want better than that!). But in recent years grass seeds have been selected and tested for resistance to different diseases, and it is now possible to get good disease protection even when seeding only one type of grass - if the blend is put together well. And that is what Bestlawn had in mind when she suggested these three cultivars.

So the advice you have heard from your locals is not necessarily bad, just maybe outdated. If I have this right, I wouldn't be surprised to see your locals asking YOU for advice next year....

Good luck!

Paul

P.S. Think of it like this: the new reality of grass seed quality just has not penetrated to the level of conventional wisdom yet, so there is a lot of outdated advice flying around. Given how many people I still see lightly watering their lawns every evening, who knows how long this will take!

Oh, and many of the nice folks here are obviously certifiable lawn freaks (meant in the kindest sense), and probably know much better than your well-meaning friends and neighbors, who are probably just repeating things that they have heard for years, without having researched any of it to the level that some have here.

parafly9 - go with it. If it doesn't turn out the best in a year or two, then add a KBG/TTTF,creep fescue and whatever grows well in you area and see if that enhances things.

Certain varieties of TTTF (fine blade) are very dark green and blend very well with KBG, and as has been posted is very durable, depending on the variety. You be the judge, but if the pros around your area recommend a certain blend......

Bottom line is you've gotten a ton of good info to guide you, and a lot of it from folks in your zone, so go for it. Ain't nothing but money. (joke) Anyway, good luck. You'll be fine.

It all sounds good! Go with the KBG, you wouldn't be disappointed. Even a monostand has some staying power these days, and Bestlawn's recommended varieties that compliment each other beautifully and whose strengths match another's weakness.

But do please Roundup twice as your weeds won't care for it (and some of mine did require two to go down). Start now, 'cause you're impatient, like the above said. It's not too early now.

In my case, I agonized over killing it, finally did, and on Day 12 I have decent color and one or two patches that actually resemble lawn already. If you don't look too closely. And squint a bit.

Since KBG does take 14-21 days to germinate, I'm extremely pleased. The areas that haven't come in yet will do so...and even if they don't, I have plenty of seed to overseed with on the 1/8 of lawn that looks questionable today.

Now we see if it looks questionable in 10 days or so. Probably not.

Morhpheus, you have me cracking up.

This is really good stuff.......
So the advice you have heard from your locals is not necessarily bad, just maybe outdated. If I have this right, I wouldn't be surprised to see your locals asking YOU for advice next year....

I am loving this guy........
But in recent years grass seeds have been selected and tested for resistance to different diseases, and it is now possible to get good disease protection even when seeding only one type of grass - if the blend is put together well.

Wait, he gets better.........
P.S. Think of it like this: the new reality of grass seed quality just has not penetrated to the level of conventional wisdom yet, so there is a lot of outdated advice flying around.

Bravo, Paul!

Yes indeed. like KBG does not do well in the transition zone...

Wow guys (& gals!) thanks for all the great advice! This was what I needed to here.

Anyways, an update - four hours ago, I rounded up the entire front yard. I'm going to do the backyard tommorrow.

I'm on my way to KBG!

I"m gonna order the compost early next week.

Bestlawn, the reason I did the 50% / 25% 25% mix is because I read the NTEP reports and they seemed to prefer Bedazzled over the other two in terms of many things. I don't have it in front of me but it looked like it was a more favorable grass. I mixed in the other two otherwise.

Here's my question - I originally bought seed based on the assumption that I would be only overseeding. NOw that I have changed that path, should I be purchasing more seed? What pound / 1000sq feet do you put down on this lawn? Again, I Think I have around 14000 sq feet (I am trying to expand my backyard by 2000 square feet as well - hasn't happened yet)

Right now I have enough to meter our 3 pounds / 1000 sq feet.

Also - I did take pictures so I will post them at some point. PRobably after 2-3 days of my lawn kicking the bucket.

Right now I have enough to meter our 3 pounds / 1000 sq feet.

The preferred seeding is 1 to 3 pounds per thousand on new lawn, so you're right on track with that.

I'd be tempted to go around 2.5 per thousand so I had a bit of seed left over for the inevitable thin patches and places where it doesn't come in. Going just a bit trim from the top number (which is perfectly fine in terms of seeding) will give you about seven pounds remaining.

Bestlawn
Still curious as to your comments on the ratio.

I wish I could see side-by-side photos of the different types of KBG's.

I thought you had the seeds already, so I didn't comment.
I would have just ordered equal parts of each.
Midnight and Moonlight are the darker varieties.
Don't suppose it's a big deal though.

I did but I was thinking about ordering more just to have an extra 10-20 pounds around for whatever.

I was thinking in that case I could just order an extra 12 pounds of each and then I would have that 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 blend.

I can always overseed next year with Midnight :)

Bestlawn,

Hey thanks! You are a lawn guru, but if you are (or anyone else here is) looking for a new obsession, I can talk your ear off about coffee.

I mean, thanks to some other forums like this one (that I have frequented for a much longer time) I have a hard time drinking any coffee that I have not bought green and roasted myself. Yes, I went from being a guy who just liked coffee to a guy who now buys green coffee online and roasts the beans in a popcorn popper driven by an industrial furnace controller, all thanks to usenet and a couple of online forums. And the espresso that flows from my used, beat up old 3 group commercial espresso machine beats anything for miles around...

Definitely both yin and yang on the online forums, I mean, how much obsession is too much, who knows!

Anyway, I really appreciate all of your advice here, I feel I have learned a lot in a very short time thanks to your many helpful posts.

Best,
Paul

errr, I'm not sure I want to know there is something wrong with the sip I just took LOL. Or, are you saying there's nothing wrong, but buying green and roasting tastes better? I'm a coffee and tea freak - that yin and yang thang. And I like them both in flavors. Can't stand espresso though because truth be told, I don't like the taste of coffee, so espresso is way too strong. Clear as mud now LOL? The thing is, I like coffee *drinks*. You know, the coffee with my cream & sugar kind of thing :)

Ooooh, you can be converted easily. Once you see what kinds of flavors are available in just simple coffee beans, you'll never look back, and I apologize up front for that!

If you send an email to monaghan "at" shorelinelegal "dot" com, I'll send you some beans, and we'll see what you think!

Regarding espresso, that will come later. You may doubt it now, but wait...

Paul
"a coffee evangelist"

Some beans? I've no way to roast or grind them.

Oh, you would need a grinder. Just to hint at the level of insanity on the coffee boards, coffee goes stale within minutes of being ground. (!)