pkguy: If it is of any help... I have narrowed my list down to... - Lawn-Boy Platinum #10797 - Honda HRX217HXA The above are the only mowers that I have found in my local area that have... - Blade brake/clutch... which is essential to me when it comes to leaves/needles in the fall. As re starting the engine 25+ times every time I bag leaves/needles in my yard is such a nuisance to me. - Over head valve engine... I think this is the best bet since it is more efficient... which for me means I will get good performance out of it and it will be better for the environment pollution and fuel consumption wise. The two mowers above have Honda OHV engines... which I feel is a plus as well. I took a look at the Toro SR4 today... nice mower, well built, rolls well with bushings in wheels, sold by knowledgeable dealer with good local reputation. The way the bag attaches and detaches is solid once on... two metal hooks that latch around a steel bar. The hooks weren't as easy to hook in as the way the Honda bag went on (see below). The personal pace thing... looks solid to me and for me isn't a real plus or minus either way. But the engine on the Toro not being a side valve/lhv takes it off my list. You can get a Toro SR4 with a OHV... but it doesn't have a blade brake/clutch I also took a look at the Honda HRX217HXA today. I really liked the versa-mow selector for mulch/bag. I thought it would be a plus for leaves/needles... as you could set the lever in between and mulch/bag. I also liked how the bag attached/detached... sturdy and easy to do by feel - meaning you wouldn't have to look down or work at attaching it. The bag attach/detach was better on the Honda then on the Toro. Granted the slots on the Honda were solid/solid plastic where on the Toro they were metal. The bag frame on both the Honda and Toro were metal. The only things I am not sure of on the Honda after seeing it... the strength of the blade brake/clutch lever (seemed real plasticy in terms of the lever on the handle). The overall design of the deck... doesn't look like there is much room under it for the grass to circulate. Heard some comments from local dealers how Honda engines are solid but the mowers themselves aren't the best. The exterior of the transmission box looked pretty chincy... although it is inside of the box that counts. The wheels didn't roll or feel as solid as on the Honda as they did on the Toro. I haven't gotten to look at the Lawn-Boy in person yet... the two dealers in my local area don't have their shipment in yet (we still have some snow on the ground). My hope is the Lawn-Boy will take what I like on the Toro and spruce it up a bit. Specifically, the pictures of the Lawn-Boy show how easily the bag attached and detaches. From the pictures it looks similar to the way the Honda bag attaches/detaches... except that you don't have to mess with the hinged plastic cover. By the way... Ariens and Snapper don't have a blade brake/clutch. The Ariens SW21 is a solid piece of machinery in terms of how it is built... has a Kawasaki engine which is a plus to. The Ariens didn't have the blade brake/clutch feature... which takes it off my list. Besides... the Ariens dealer in my area is a Deere dealer... and his prices are full/full retail and their service rates are much higher then anyone else in the area (that's Deere for you). Troy-Bilt did or does (not sure)... but it has lots of issues according to the service guys. Besides... Troy-Bil is part of MTD and most if not all of their consumer mowers are total junk... throw away type mowers sold only at big box stores (not all of them... but the vast majority). The Toro blade brake/clutch is solid and performs well... as does the one on the Honda. Anyways... more then you probably wanted to know. But figured the info might come in handy to someone. -------------------------------------------------------- * Posted by pkguy (My Page) on Mon, Apr 9, 07 at 17:09 Like Easternupstate I'm also in the market and have looked at the Toro's LB's, MTD, Sears,other makes and Ariens. I just got back from Ariens today and they're carrying a new design lineup called Blade Runner along with their traditional looking deck models, all to add to the confusion. I've also got tons of leaves from 8 giant oak trees in the back yard along with all the associated twigs etc that fall off. The bags on the Arien LM21S are pretty easy to dump, on the new Blade Runners, not so easy because they have the attached bag cover, I think the LB's have the easiest with that fold away handle. Anyways, I'm still looking. Heck I'm spending more time deciding on a lawnmower than I would for a new car LOL

As a small engine mechanic I would have to say I would take the Honda motor over the Tecumseh any day. The GVC 160 is not a top quality Honda motor and does have one or two problems but the overall construction is way above the Tecumseh motor. The biggest favour you can do for that particular Honda motor is to put a thin layer of grease along the underside edge of the air filter to produce a better seal. That motor has a habit of pulling dust and dirt in under the air filter due to a poor air box design. As for the Chinese Honda knock offs?? Stay well away from them. Most of them you CAN NOT get parts for or even part breakdowns. They may look extremely similar to Hondas but they have a million tiny differences that you can't interchange parts. Finding a source of correct parts for the motors is next to impossible. Even things as mundane as air filters and carburetor kits are not available. If you must buy a Chinese knockoff make sure you buy two. That way you'll have a parts motor too.

Thanks yungman, As you described with a non-powered push mower, that's how they have to be turned around, for sure. The worst part is when I get into a corner and have to back up as well as turn around. How does a self-propelled mower such as the lawnboy 10965 do this? Is mower always trying to move forward? Does it lock the wheels when pulled backward? Or can it even be made to go backwards, without turning it off? I just read the manual on that mower and it said nothing as to how to back up, turn around. As you can tell, I know nothing of self-propelled mowers. The suggestion to get a zero-turn mower is really good, but from what I've seen, they are all more than I can afford. I agree with you about the Troy-bilt.\\ They actually had good stuff, before MTD bought them and now all they are are MTD's with the right's to the Troy-Bilt name and color. --MY old tiller was a true, Troy-bilt horse. Its engine finally gave up. I went to the dealer and was talked into, instead of getting a new engine, for as they said, such an old machine, why not trade in my Horse, down size to the "pony," and have a new engine as well as a new tiller. After much arm-twisting, I finally agreed. Sure wish I hadn't. It was the beginning of the 2d yr. that MTD owned Troy-Bilt. And the quality difference showed. The life time warranty that was on the Troy-bilt was voided by them. How dumb I was to give up my Horse. But I thought I was getting a real Troy-bilt. With MTD taking over, things sure have changed. Anyway, I hear you on Troy-Bilt. It was one of the best lawn equipment makers. Now it is, well, you know... I did look at the Toro equivalent of the Lawnboy. It seemed the same as the lawnboy, but one model had high, back wheels, which I think will make mowing my up/down/rutty back yard easier--but as I've asked before, with it being self-propelled, do I need to have a high wheel unit? Other than that, it looked like everything was the same, but more pricey. With maneuvering being the so important, if I get the self-propelled, am I going to have trouble (more than with a plain push mower) getting out of a corner as well as turning. Or are you saying it will be easier with the self-propelled, even if I don't have a zero turn, machine?

I am really tired today running between all the big box stores. At the end, I didn't option the lawn boy because I really can't justify the extra cost vs sears promo today. Plus, a technician at Rona's service center gave me a friendly warning about the Tecumseh engine, the supply of the parts might be good for next 2-3 years but can't promise anything at long run. I still have a thought that a good mower should last me 10 years ironed in my head... However, I really like the design of the lawn boy 10684, everything seems very well design and build quality is better than others. If it's around $350CND range and none self-propelled model, I would pull the trigger, no question ask. I went back to Sears and ordered the Craftsman 36933 model (3-in-1 with bag, side discharge, mulching), which has B&S 850 platinum engine (8.5 ft/lb torque), no choke and no primer needed. The price is just what I am aiming for, 289.99+taxes. The engine seems pretty well build but the rest of the parts are very standard, a regular every week lawn mower...