Cool! I am sure they are using quince stock to get yields so fast, and also to keep the vigor down. It looks like about 5' spacing which I would say is a good spacing for pears on quince. Frank, I don't know if you can use quince, its not super hardy. None of the more hardy pear stocks are precocious.

Scott

Got to wonder if it would work up here. We get deep snowcover, so the rootstock might stay a little more protected? Have no idea.

It is amazing how fast they are getting huge yields.

One of the articles describes the spacing as 80 cm, with 3 meters between rows. That puts it around 2.6' spacing.

Scott- I recall from a previous post that you had some trouble with 2.5' spacing on European pears.

I also found another article (see below) which describes the spacing as 3.5' with 11.5' between rows. It says that Quince C rootstock is being used.

http://www.goodfruit.com/Good-Fruit-Grower/September-2011/Reviving-the-British-pear/

Frank- Intensive plantings seem to be the trend with apples in my area, but pears? Kind of reminds me of the new vertical techniques now being used for indoor produce operations. Thanks for posting those pictures.
Noogy

What rootstock do they use for these spindles if apples are to be grown?

Bob, my close spacing is in fact 1.75' - its two rows staggered back to back with 3.5' between trees, which makes it one tree every 1.75'. It didn't work so well but the area was low in light and I didn't prune the trees properly -- I tried to make them all into vase shapes and they were far too close to even try that. I have switched to a spindle system (no major branching) and that improved things. I also didn't use quince and some trees, esp. things on BET, are far too vigorous. Based on my experience I would say 2.5' in a row with quince and spindle pruning and good light exposure would work great.

Scott

M9 is the most widely planted high density apple rootstock. At least this is my impression from reading Good Fruit Grower since the 70s.

Would this method be viable when growing vigorous types, e.g., Northern Spy?

Scott, 2.5' sounds pretty tight, but it is tempting to get as many varieties as possible. I just dug holes for spring planting at 8' apart (one Quince A and the other OHxF333) and am tempted to add one in the middle.

Glib, yes, high density should work for Northern Spy, but you'll need to be careful to choose a very dwarfing rootstock given how vigorous it is. While some of the less vigorous spur-bearing varieties can go all the way to M26, you'd probably want to stay in the M9/B9 area for NS. You may also need to give it slightly more space, depending on the training system. I'm planning to use a mix of tall/slender spindle approach for the apples I planted this spring.

Tall Spindle with a pic of a NS on B9

Slender Spindle

Apple Training from Cornell

I am in the process of planning out an orchard for 5 acres and would very much like to be able to make a living (even if a meager one) from it within 5 years. So to plant so intensively (or even traditionally), how in the world do you afford to start it without going broke? In other words, what is the cheapest way to get this started? I do have some established trees, but I've never tried rooting any cuttings or doing air callused cuttings, or grafting (in which case I'd still need rootstock). I'm not even sure which fruit to grow, or whether to do a variety. I have a variety of established trees here already, a handful of each. If you have some tips on how to get started as cheap as possible, but within reason of what I can accomplish too (I doubt I can graft several hundred trees... but then again, who knows!)

Thanks so much!
Kathy in VA

If you want to see reasonable production in 5 years, I think you need to go with dwarf rootstocks. Grafting is probably the cheapest way to get those trees, but I believe it would mean adding a year to your payback horizon.

Let's assume 500 tress per acre.

500 trees/acre * 5 acres * $7.75/feathered tree (ACN) = $19,375

500 trees/acre * 5 acres * $1.75/rootstock (Raintree and Cummins had this price- you may be able to find even lower from someplace like Treco) = $4375

Of course 2500 trees is a lot to get scion-wood for, not to mention grafting. I have no idea how many source trees you would need for that type of grafting operation.

Keep in mind that there are many other expenses than just the trees. For example, a high density orchard requires additional staking and/or trellising. Dealing with pests (bugs and disease) is another expense. You may be able to save a bit on spraying for disease during the first (non-bearing) years with disease resistant trees, but you need to make sure someone will want to eat the variety. Having some Goldrush would be good though :)

How are you planning to sell the apples? Your own fruitstand, pick-your-own, farmer's markets, or wholesale? The below link makes a good read- I was shocked how low the wholesale price can be. Having several varieties will be important for anything but wholesale.

University of Minnesota: Before you start an apple orchard

All in all it sounds like a tough business. I'm glad I'm just playing around with growing fruit as a hobby and not depending on it for a living. The worst that could happen to me would be the disapproving looks my wife would give me for wasting so much time. :)

I would start off on a small scale and slowly work your way up, especially if you've never grown fruit trees before. You'd almost need a crew to handle 5 acres of fruit. An acre of high density pears can yield 20,000-40,000lbs of pears (at least in Washington State on OHF-87). I couldn't imagine dealing with that much fruit. A couple of pear trees in your yard should keep you in the pears for many months (given proper storage).

Thanks, Bob.

Bob and Frank touch on the most important issues: "where's the money?".

Kathy, you need a business plan, even though you don't yet have a business. It means trying to come up with estimations of costs and figuring out where the money will come from to cover them.

You're trying to find out now what your costs might be (cost of rootstock, fertilizers, disease and pest control, energy, labor, packaging, advertising, administration and more, and more, and more) and how many customers you have to have and where you're going to find them and how to get the product to them, and how much fruit you have to have at what price to get that much money, with a little left over for a modest living, and whether it's all doable within reason.

Without that kind of thinking you're experimenting. Nothing wrong with that, but remember that the outcome of an experiment is unknown. Five years is not a very long time in fruit-tree growing, so I'd suggest that you need to be very thoughtful and thorough in your planning before you commit yourself deeply. At the very least provide some minimum of steady income outside of your business attempts before risking very much.

Just thoughts, and the best of luck to you. It's not that these bold things cannot be done- they can- but that success is most likely for the best prepared.

M

I don't know how easy it is to replicate at home, though - some thoughts:

1) the trees are puny and need regular watering. Drip is a must, but even then, miss one watering, cause a lot of drops. And who knows whether they will not drop regardless, even if you water. So you need a soil test (some fertilization as well?), probably clear the grass too.

2) there is no thinning here, but then there is no bagging either. You have to spray.

Then there is the support building, with those concrete posts that you don't find at Home Depot. Am I missing something else? This is hardly relatively carefree home fruit cultivation. A semidwarf will make you wait, but then there is only a couple of sprays plus bagging.

So is it a general consensus that a meager living could not be obtained from a conventional fruit orchard on 5 acres? I would actually like a conventional fruit orchard with full sized trees because I plan on grazing hair sheep in the same area which will manage grass and weeds and diversify my income possibilities.

Since Mark asked, I will bore you with more details! ;o)
I do live at a GREAT location for having a farm stand and have connections with local specialty markets that are interested in purchasing my fruit. I run a small scale vegetable operation right now with my current focus on expanding berry production. Raspberries, black raspberries and blackberries all do phenomenally well here. Between berry production, specialty meat and the fruit orchard, I hope to be able to make a meager living. I have no debt, farm is paid for... so just need enough to pay for heat, insurance and such things (I grow almost all my own food and put it up for use throughout the year).

I have not obtained USDA organic certification, but have been certified by an alternative certification agency (CNG - Certified Naturally Grown). I started the USDA organic certification process but stopped mid way due to costs and paperwork but its definitely something I WOULD do before I'm in full production. And lets not make this a debate about whether I CAN do an orchard organically. I know I will have a lower percentage of class 1 fruit, I can process the rest and sell products (organic as well). I'm currently doing the berries and veggies all organic and do know what I'm doing when it comes to organic methods. Not only do I strongly believe in using all organic methods, but as you can probably imagine, this is also a way to maximize my income per acre.

I know its more work intensive at times, but I don't mind the work. I'm still under 40 and have my health and you know the saying... find something you love and you'll never work a day in your life! Its not really work to me... labor of love. Hard labor some days yes, but I can't imagine doing anything else.

This is me pictured on my farm's website (site built by me so its not perfect for sure!) http://www.abetterwayfarms.com/About.html

Anyhow, yes I do have some capital to invest in getting an orchard started but I'd rather not go broke doing it, ya know? I have a good variety of fruit trees right now, just no more than 12 of any type (for example, I have 12 peach trees, all different varieties of peaches) I have apple, peach, quince, cherry, jujube, pear... ummm... I think that is it (without pulling out my farm map!) lol.

So my peach trees are 2 and 3 years old and many of those trees gave me a few hundred peaches a piece this year. Of course these trees were purchased as 7 gallon potted 5 ft trees. That is where I was originally thinking if I could do air callused cuttings... I could save major money, and given that these trees are producing reasonably well in 2-3 years, was thinking maybe an air callused cutting could produce reasonably well within 5 years??? I don't really know... just not trying to put $20K in getting an orchard going... there has got to be "A Better Way" (thats my motto, and my business name!)

Thanks for your continued advice and expertise!
Kathy in VA

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.abetterwayfarms.com/About.html

Kathy, it does sound like you have thought about it a fair amount.

I would look more seriously at the organic fruit growing aspect, its a whole lot harder than it gets credit for. Currently I know of exactly 0 successful organic tree fruit growing operations in the mid-atlantic states. There are a couple starting up in Maryland now, but we'll see if they make it. It takes 3-5 years for the diseases and bugs to really kick in so I would not go at all by how hard you find it now. Also berries are trivial compared to tree fruits -- tree fruits have pests that are much harder to get rid of. If you don't beat back the curculio you won't get a minimal crop or a damaged crop, you will get nothing. I do encourage you to still go ahead with it, just be prepared for epic setbacks along the way. One other downside is the cost inputs are today much higher for organic fruit growing. I currently need to spend premium $$ on Surround, spinosad, and mating disruption in order to get a successful organic crop of peaches and apples. Surround in particular is about impossible to do without because its the only good weapon against the curculio. I also don't know how I would stop the oriental fruit moth without spinosad and mating disruption. The upside is you could charge a premium price because there is no local organic fruit at all now.

If you want to start with minimal expenses, about the only way is grafting. Rootstocks are cheap and for peaches and plums you can even grow pretty good stocks from seed. Grafting is easy compared to growing organic fruit so if you are willing to put the time into learning that I don't think thats a bad way to cut down on expenses.

Most importantly I would get some books that talk about the cost, planning, etc of an orchard and run through an exercise. You don't have to follow all their assumptions, but do make a good stab at the overall plan; you may decide to start with only one acre for that reason. I know that for organic apple growing Michael Phillips' book is a good place to begin, he has a chapter on planning. There are also good State ag publications on cost planning, but I don't recall where they are from now.

Scott

Is apple bagging even doable on five acres?

Glib-

Unless you have an INSANE amount of free time and a family of 10 :)

I gave up on bagging. If the top isn't completely sealed, PC will come right in. I had more bite marks on BAGGED apples then I did on unbagged. I wasted too much time. I'll spray pesticide (just 2 sprays this year) and deal with a few marks. PC larvae will not live if an apple stays hanging. It will crush the larvae. If the apple falls, its a different story. Just pick up and throw away any dropped apples.

I think hoping for standards or self rooted trees to be in production in 5 years is not a good idea. some will, many won't. And those that are will just be starting. I have some standards that are 8+ years old and still withholding on me!

Don't get me wrong, I like standards, but they are rarely precocious. Also (as I am learning) they are more difficult/labor intensive to manage. I also fully support and practice organic methods, but no one around me can do it a commercial level just us backyard/hobby growers. Having 5 acres of full sized trees to maintain in an organic manner.....well let's just say it would be ALOT of time and may not leave you much else to manage your other farm ventures without some additional help.

Given some time off over the holidays I had time for some reading and decided to go a little denser with the pears (as well as shifting them to another part of the yard, putting peaches in their place, growing apricots in containers, etc). While researching the topic I found some interesting things and figured I'd update the thread with what I've learned and ask a question near the end.

1.) Really tight densities are being used:
a.) I thought that the 2.5' spacing Scott suggested was tight, but these guys are going even tighter at 1-2.5'. Super Spindle spacing seems to be in the 1-2' range (page 39 in the link from #2).
b.) The super spindle planting seems the most productive (in terms of total pounds), but it seems to reduce fruits size to a noticeable degree (over medium density plantings of 4-5').
c.) There is even a double-row spaced at 12' x 4' x 2.5' (last two rows in Table 2 on the last page). This article also has a nice list of differences between apple and pear growth habits.

2.) There are some pretty hardcore methods which growers are using to keep the trees growth down in such tight plantings. This page uses flash, but it has a great quantity of info- see page 26 for details:
a.) Branch bending- the one item in this list I'm comfortable with...
b.) Breaking branches- after harvest (before the energy has been transferred to the roots) snapping off upright growth with bad ratios/angles. This increases light penetration and causes the tree to spend additional energy to heal the wound, than if it was just cut (ouch...).
c.) Stem incisions- using a chain saw to cut 1/4 to 1/2 of the trunk in multiple locations (spaced at least 30cm apart) to disrupt sap flow.
d.) Root pruning- cutting both the small and large roots. Another article mentioned that generally one side of the tree's roots is pruned at a time and it is not generally done in concert with stem incisions (but incisions or root pruning can be done with branch breaking).

A lot of this sounds too extreme for me- I could probably bring myself to rip off the waterspouts, but I don't think I would want to take a chainsaw to a tree that I like. I think I'll stick with a medium density of around 5' spacing, using branch bending and renewal pruning. This means I can add 2 trees to the 2 I already have on order (Honeysweet & Harrow Delight). I'm thinking about adding Magness and Fondante de moulins Lille (both on Provence Quince from Tierra Madre). The first 3 are all quite fireblight resistant. Fondante de moulins Lille is "moderately fireblight susceptible". I know some people in the forum (at least Scott) are growing this cultivar- how much do I need to worry about FB on this pear? Would I be better off with Belle Lucrative (moderately resistant) on OHxF333?

OHxF333 isn't ideal in that it may not be as precocious as quince, though branch bending should help. Also, I haven't found much info on using it in high-density. Evidently OHxF333 decreases fruit size didn't even make the cut for most of the high-density testing. While OHxF97 and 87 did OK, I suspect that lots of the actions from #2 could be needed, given their higher vigor.

Bob

Bob, thanks for those interesting links. FYI my pear row is in fact a double row, I usually don't mention that since it can get confusing. I have two rows zig-zagged with spacing of 3.5' in each row, meaning that is on average 1.75' between pears for the whole row, and I also have a few extras crammed in here and there. My main peach/plum row is also a double row. I am not a big fan of the double row, but it could be I did not know how to prune it when I put them in eight years ago -- it took me several years before I decided to go with a spindle, and I didn't do all the fancy branch bending etc.

I confess to have seen little correlation of supposed fireblight resistance to how it actually works out. The only pear I have lost completely due to fireblight is Magness, one of the most resistant ones I grow. Asian pears tend to be worse than any Euro pear for me. So, unless a pear is highly susceptible I don't pay attention to the FB rating. That is just based on my orchard and it may have something to do with the location I have the trees in. I have never seen any FB on my Fondante de Moulins-Lille and that pear is also incredibly precocious and reliable, it has been my best European pear. Note that quince rootstock is highly firelight susceptible and with a susceptible stock a strike to the top can kill the whole tree. I still think quince is the best rootstock in spite of the FB risk, it is so much more precocious and dwarfing.

The opinion in France on OH333 is only a few varieties get decreased fruit size and it is more popular there. In the US it now has this reputation for small fruit which I think is based on limited data and probably few cultivars.

Scott

I apologize for the special characters (the "A" with a little hat)- they were non-breaking spaces I added for indentation. It seemed to be working correctly when I was previewing.

Thanks Scott. That was exactly what I was hoping to hear- except the part about Magness. :) At least the difference between "moderately susceptible" and "moderately resistant" doesn't sound too significant.

OHxF333 (1/2 to 2/3 standard) should be in the same ballpark size-wise to Provence Quince (55% - one of the larger types of Quince). I think I'll still go for the preciosity- when the fruit is rolling in in a few years maybe I'll be more patient about slow-to-bear rootstocks.

Bob

What types of Quince stock would be suitable for Zone 5/5b?

Quince is rated to zone 5, so you may be OK. There is some new hardy quince rootstock which should be showing up in a few years.

Bob, my impression is quince is much better than anything else for precocity, and thats a big deal for European pears which can take many years to fruit. It also is much more seriously dwarfing. All my new pears are on quince.

Scott

On another board (but quoted here long ago) I think it was stated that OHxF 513 was found to be highly dwarfing ("bonzai") in Virginia I believe it was and that OHxF 51 was the best rootstock this gentleman had found.

I will know myself in a few years, but I wonder if 513 (said to be dwarfing), 51 (slightly dwarfing I think), or callery (a hair larger than standard I think I've read) give any precocity to pears in general. All have at least some FB resistance. I know that at least one pear each that I grafted to 513 and to callery in 2007 fruited this past summer, but I forget which selections.

OHxF 513 or 51, with some dwarfing and with some FB resistance would seem quite favorable if precocity accompanies for many selections.

Noogy, there is a wide range in quince hardiness levels, depending on the quince cultivar. This article describes how they are testing 50 different types and some of them are OK to -40 degrees. Of course, I don't think many are available yet- just a few such as Quince A, C, Provence, Adams.

Gonebananas, regrettably, OHxF 51 and 513 don't seem to be around either. Lucky_p was the one who referred to 513 as a Bonsai tree, though I think that may be more due to his local conditions. Pyrodwarf is another interesting new rootstock, but I haven't seen that available either.

I think for now I'll go with Quince and see how much of an issue FB is. I'll have one tree (Honeysweet) on OHxF333 for comparison.

Thanks, Scott and Bob.

Gonebananas, I have lots of OHxF 513 and did not notice any runting, or any precocity. My most precocious pears were on good old seedling rootstock believe it or not, it beat out 513, 333, and BET. I am not stating that seedling is any better necessarily, but I don't think any of these other rootstocks give any improvement over it.

Scott

I admittedly see nothing but vigor on 513 in the first several years now. I don't have experience with typical dwarfing rootstock and don't know whether they show normal rapid growth up to a reduced size or alternatively reduced growth overall.