VERY interesting. They are now recommending ammonium sulfate rather than aluminum sulfate.

Be careful though that you are not overfertilizing with nitrogen.

When soil bacteria change ammonium to nitrate they release protons, that being acidity. I don't recall seeing the process commonly being recommended before.

bananas:

I don't claim to understand all the soil chemistry. But I think when blueberries absorb ammonium ions the plant exudes a proton in it's place just as the bacteria do. That lowers soil/water pH.

I need a better way to measure acidity of the media. Anybody have a good pH meter?

Wow, well if it released a proton, a nuclear explosion would most likely happen.Well not always, when uranium throws off a few protons it becomes lead. Hence uranium's ability to do this, it is called radioactive. A nuclear explosion is more turning protons into energy, in other words, mass converted to energy. Protons are only located in the nucleus of atoms. Sulfur has 16 of them, if it loses any it's no longer sulfur. If it lost one it would be Phosphorus. Nitrogen would be carbon if it lost one. I guess by proton you mean hydrogen, but hydrogen is not the same as a proton, it has 1 proton, but it also has a neutron linked to that proton, well unless it's an isotope. But let's not go there.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Sun, Sep 7, 14 at 5:48

Steve, You must have ran out of rain water for your blues recently? Its been a couple years since Ive attempted to get soil ph as my plants havent displayed a reason to check. I had problems intially with city water and sulfer swinging my Ph one way or another. Every since Ive been able to store enough rain water the problems went away. I have ran out of rain water once a year so far and filled my drums with city water. Had to add 10mL of sulfuric acid to each drum and they never seemed to miss a beat. When I had Ph problems I would use one of those glass bulb Ph meters, cant recall the name of it but I would use DI water or RO water and place the bulb in the water stream coming out of the bottom of the pot. Not 100% sure how accurate it was but I can tell you when a plant was showing stress the Ph was either too high or too low. Never had a reading on a healty plant that was in either extreme. All healty plants were 3.8 to 5.3 Ph. Good enough for Government work I guess. Are you seeing chlorotic leafs or bright pink/yellow stunnted new growth? Thats the two signs Ive found that indicate too high or too low Ph respectively with blueberries.

Drew:

You know what I meant. An NH4+ is exchanged for a H+. More H ions means lower pH.

Blueboy:

I've had media issues and have been mislead by my pH meter. Around here we can't buy proper ingredients so have to make up things with what we can find.

I think Drew needs to check his drinking water!

(BTW: uranium casts off helium to become lead. Strange but true.)

Seems like it would be easier to over acidify with ammonium sulfate (than with granular sulfur) because the sulfur element is frequently reapplied. I apply granular sulfur once during planting and then lightly again in Spring. Water insoluble organic fertilizers for acid loving plants are then added through out the growing season.

Sulfur itself is water insoluble, doesn't that mean it isn't used by the plant directly (a good thing) and wouldn't it build up over time when frequently reapplied (not a good thing)? Adding acids to your water on top of that sounds more risky, and is another thing that I don't do.

Drew, et al:
For those inclined there is a concept of how nature is able to transmutate elements with out the energy used in nuclear fission. It is presented by professor C. Louis Kervran in his book Biological Transmutations available from www.acresusa.com ; the best source for eco-agriculture info.

fruitnut,
To help with pH lowering and nutrient availability in high pH soils consider using humates. This is a geologically stable (1000 years) humus in the form of humic and fulvic acids. It is a carbonaceous material half way between peat and coal. The raw mined deposit form is called Leonardite and has a pH of 4. Peat has humates in it and maybe largely the reason for its acidifying ability. Raw humates are excellent for use with western alkaline/caliche/saline soils. For eastern acidic soils, immediate activity, and for foliar use the hydroxide extracted form in aqueous solution is more appropriate. Humates are extremely large molecules with a huge amount of chemical activity having 16 distinct modes of action in soil and plants. For full explanation visit www.teravita.com and read the treatise detailing 40 years of Russian research and the source for humates made with the Russian patent in the USA.

A source for good pH meters (and refractometers to measure Brix sugar levels and the associated mineral health of the plant) go to www.pikeagri.com : Pike Agri-Lab Supplies, Inc. ,Strong ME

As for acidifying water; you may want to try using phosphoric acid so you will be adding a nutrient which will likely complex with soil Ca to form calcium phosphate or "rock" phosphate a stable non-leachable form of phosphorus that is slowly released as need by soil biota, especially mycorhizzae. I heard that for blueberry growing in Calif. in alkaline soils they use constant acid added to the drip irrigation water. For organic production I think they allow citric and /or acetic acids. You can make your own acetic acid (cider vinegar)if you have a lot of apple drops (or bad wine).

Another excellent way to acidify soil is to use coffee grounds as a mulch and it also has a lot of nitrogen available as it decomposes. Give your local coffee shop a 5 gallon bucket to dump grounds in to be collected periodically. If you have dogs restrict any access as they can ingest grounds and get very sick or die from caffeine poisoning. Or compost it first as it is a good compost activator/ nitrogen source for dry brown materials. Composting may buffer the acidifying action.

I would definitely avoid the use aluminum sulphate, as aluminum in excess is toxic, and any soil with clay(an aluminum constituent compound), would have plenty of aluminum if plants actually need it as a nutrient. In western soils the use of ammonium sulphate to acidify enough, would likely overdose on N, so I would only use it to supplement the acidifying program. Do not scrimp on calcium as it is needed for sweet blueberries. Just don't use lime (calcium oxide), slaked or hydrated lime (calcium hydroxide), ground limestone(calcium carbonate), nor wood ashes (with calcium, potassium and magnesium oxides, which when wetted become hydroxides = very basic. Use gypsum (calcium sulphate) which does not change pH, chelated forms of calcium, egg shells, ground lobster,crab, or seashells. Also small annual doses of calcium nitrate can be used if needed for a quick spring nitrogen source, and some calcium in addition.

Hope this is helpful.
fruitfully,
DanL

. A neutron walks into the bar and asks the proton bartender for a beer. The proton gives him the beer. The neutron asks "how much?" The proton says :"For you no charge" The neutron says "Are you sure?" The bartender "I'm positive".

As far as biorat's comments. Coffee is very acidic, but used coffee grounds are not, as the acid is leached out. Raw coffee grounds are too expensive to use on plants.
I doubt a dog would ever eat them too. I would put them on for the nitrogen source. Free fertilizer, heck yeah use them!
Acetic acid breaks down too quickly for long term use, so is not a good choice to acidify water. No need to add calcium if you use sulfuric acid. The problem we have is carbonates in the water.So no lack of calcium. We don't ever need to add calcium. Sulfuric acid will make gypsum out of them anyway. Acetic acid will not. Also the use of nitrates and blueberries is a no no as they have a hard time and limited ability to utilize nitrates. You can kill your bush with enough nitrates. A little won't hurt, but it's not good to add any on purpose.
Otherwise a lot of great info biorat, wow! Thanks!

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Sep 9, 14 at 5:25

Great information or just a link to a scam is my question. Where is the independent research that shows the efficacy of these products?

Humic acids are generously released in the normal process of composting and free arborist wood chips used as a mulch will drench the soil with them.

Folks are always looking for some inside scoop to magically transform them into super growers. Snake oil is much more common than the real deal and any legitimate agricultural product will likely be embraced by commercial growers if research reveals its efficacy.

Anyone with a patent for such a product stands to make a lot more money if they can take it to big ag but BS is easier to sell to hobbyists and small pot growers.

Here's a good article about PH, and they come to the same conclusions we all do, well at least I do. Use battery acid to acidify water. From North Carolina Cooperative Extension Service.
Although another good option is snake oil. ;-0

Here is a link that might be useful: Alkalinity Control for Irrigation

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Sep 9, 14 at 6:13

Harvestman, another product often sold is bacteria for peas and legumes. We talked about mycorrhizae before too. I think for blueberries for me the fungi is good, as none grow around here, so likely not in the soil.
Anyway for the first time I'm growing sugar snap peas. I planted them, and none came up. I read about the soil may need the bacteria so these plants can fix nitrogen. So I ordered some, but already planted a 2nd round of peas. Well all the peas came up this time. The packet arrived but I appear not to need it!? More snake oil?

Wow...fascinating thread. To build on what biorat said, in a place as alkaline as west Texas I'd be using a multipronged approach to maintaining acidity, or better put as acid-base buffering capacity. Some sphagnum moss mixed in the soil, some of the vastly more expensive humic acid derivatives. It seems to me that acidifying the ground/tap water with sulfuric acid is a good -short term- solution, but in the long term, you still want to be using the lowest ion water available...namely rainwater. Here in the rainy east my blueberries have never been fertilized, and they grow like crazy without any calcium supplementation. I'd worry that the acidified water used alone, will potentially build up higher levels of Ca and other cations in the soil, than what they'd prefer.

Drew51, I believe you're mistaken in your comment above regarding the interchangeability of "proton" and "hydrogen".

Hydrogen, in the form we most often see as protium, has no neutron. It is a single proton and electron. Hydrogen does have one stable isotope, deuterium, which has one neutron.

Hydrogen atoms gain stability in their electron shell by accepting 1 electron or losing its electron. Most often, it's the latter. Therefore, when we see hydrogen atoms in solution, as H+, we are in fact seeing a single proton. In this case, the terms are interchangeable.

This brings to bear that gardening and horticulture can be whatever you want to make of it. It can be a way to flex your science muscles, or simply a way to enjoy nature or good food. It can be as easy, hard, interesting or thought provoking as you make it. Ultimately, you reap what you sow, the proof is in the pudding, and your mileage may vary, etc. :)

Drew51, I believe you're mistaken in your comment above regarding the interchangeability of "proton" and "hydrogen".

I didn't mean to imply that at all. I agree, A proton and hydrogen are very different. Actually I was ribbing the other guys for just what you said.

Sulfuric acid is the long term solution It takes calcium out of the equation making it unavailable for the most part in the form of gypsum. Gypsum as far as I know doesn't really break down and is certainly neutral. I agree I use rain water only for my blueberries, but because of the environmentalists craze, the rainwater is now neutral. I have to acidify rain water! My rainwater is 7.0. So I try not to add any calcium at all. Currently I collect enough rain water for my blueberries. Other plants get city water when I'm low. I always keep enough for the blueberries.
It's going to rain tomorrow so everything gets' rain water today.
My rain water probably doesn't have any carbonates, so I really don't need to acidify. But the ground has too high a PH. And even though my plants are in raised beds the surrounding ground pulls hydrogen ions out, and the decomposing compost uses them too, so the soil needs a constant supply of hydrogen ions, i.e. sulfuric acid.
Last year I put enough sulfur in to get my raised bed to 4.5. I added no more acid, used rain water with no acid. This spring when i tested the beds they were 6.5!! So now I add hydrogen ions constantly. I want to be around 4.0 when winter hits as over the winter the ph will again slowly go up.
All gardening is local, in my area, with my clay loam, and local PH of rain water, this is what I have to do to maintain a proper PH, your mileage may vary.

Innoculating soil for legumes is an established and well researched method. Mychorizal fungus, on the other hand, is already well established in living soils and usually the product is worthless based on my reading. It has been pretty well studied.

I bet It would be useful if you were making your own blueberry soil, though, out of say, peat, sand and pine bark, Likely there,d be no mychorizal fungus in that. On the other hand, it would probably arrive from adjacent soil if you weren't growing them in pots not touching soil.

People are free to run with their own ideas and research is never absolute proof of anything- a lot of it in horticulture is downright misleading. I just think its useful to know what the research is saying- especially when someone is making claims based on observation without even any careful comparison (treating one and not treating another of two nearby plants- same species, same soil, for instance).

A lot of hobby gardeners don't want to take a chance on not applying the magic ingredient to any of their babies, in case it is helpful- I've been guilty of this more than once. Lately I've enjoyed taking a more studied approach. Getting ripped off isn't all that much fun.

I guess I just disagree because we could not get fungi as the only sellers were commercial. Many sellers of commercial products are all over the net. At last they offered to the home{{gwi:807}} gardener. The benefits are well established.Wrong place for the discussion though.

Blueberries are different, but fungi for all other plants cost about 5 bucks for enough innoculant for 250 plants.
So not a big deal as far as cost. Plus really no need to buy it as they are in just about every organic fertilizer already. Even put in the potting soils, Pro mix etc.
Everybody uses fungi these days.

This post was edited by Drew51 on Tue, Sep 9, 14 at 19:14

Drew, check this.

Here is a link that might be useful: mycho myths

Fruitnut, I use the Kelway soil ph tester. It has an accuracy rating of +- 0.2. However, the pH in a pot will vary from the top of pot to the bottom. In nature the ph of soils changes due to depth. Also, pH varies due to time of year and moisture content of soil. pH is a moving target. Even soil scientist have problems classifying soil types due to changing pH. Farmers are advised to take soil test for pH at the same time each year.