stuffradio, your comment reminded me of a question that escaped me last night. You or anyone else can answer this question: when the catalog gives a ripening period does this refer to when the fruit will start to turn orange or when it is at its peak? And what do you mean ripe enough? I ordered a Giant Fuyu because the catalog said it ripens in October but I have since read that it ripens in November. If the ripening time means it will have good color and will continue to ripening on the counter the fruit will still be tasty...right? Or does it mean the fruit will began to color up until November? We may not have the heat to ripen the fruit in November and I have made a mistake in choosing this one. Which variety do you have, is your tree potted or in the ground, and when is your fruit suppose to ripen? Thanks guys

It may have not been the original question but the concept of sexual maturity in fruit trees is important to understand- or at least partially understand, which is all I've managed to accomplish. In peaches wood comes into the world sexually mature and a dwarfing rootstock of apple produces a similar affect on its scion. Vegetative wood is sexually immature wood and even a century old apple tree produces it in the form of water sprouts. I don't know if in water sprouts this sexual immaturity or determination to grow at the expense to fruit production is anything more that a heightened vigor brought on by greater access to nitrogen and water from the roots compared to what smaller more fruitful shoots get access to (there are a couple of other factors I'll let lie). Nevertheless water sprouts grow in the same manner as a vigorous newly planted and immature whip. Such a shoot can often be transformed into mature wood quickly by spreading it to a nearly horizontal position. The maturity of wood is not a state of being either absolutely immature of completely mature so wood in-between may set some flowers but fail to provide adequate energy to it as most energy is going into the production of new wood. Also the energy of producing those flowers was made the previous season so a tree that's been transplanted has been put under stress that may make it impossible to support it's blossoms or even much new vegetative growth.

Thank you Fruitnut, I think I have gained some clarity based on your response and on a couple of sites I found after my post. As a newbie to grapes I had no idea what buying a "3 yr old" grapevine actually meant. I was surprised that one site was selling vines in bunches of around 25 with the best prices if ordering a quantity of 50 or more. I was thinking I don't want to start a vineyard; I just want to grow grapes in my garden probably no more than my family actually consumes. The website also had a picture of the grapevines they sell with this excerpt: Grading Standards At our Vineyards 1 yr Extra - These are one year old vines that have made excellent growth the first year. Top growth is 12-18", and they have a heavy root system. 1 yr #1 - These vines are slightly smaller than 1-Extra vines, having 6-12" of top growth with a good root system to support the vine at planting. They represent the majority of the vines available. If I had received these vines in the mail I would have been like what the heck?!#@ and would certainly had been disappointed at the waste of 15.95 per vine. (not that this website asks that much for theirs but that is what I was looking at paying for a 3 yr old vine). I had to take my understanding of buying fruit trees back to the drawing board as a vine is definitely not a tree and though these plants are minuscule they are at least still a plant with roots; a lot of vendors are just selling cuttings I would then need to root myself. I then found a website that pictured more of what I wanted to know with this excerpt: Here is an illustration of two own root, (i.e. ungrafted) vines pruned ready for shipment. On the left is a one-year old and on the right a mature vine. Both types should be allowed a year to re-establish the root system which is pruned for shipment. Note that mature vines loose most of their feeding roots during lifting so they are best planted in November with mycorrhizal fungi applied to the roots to stimulate feeding root regrowth. In the spring, new growth should appear at several points on the head of the plant. Only those shoots required for the framework should be allowed to develop. The image on the left looks like a grape I purchased growing in a 1 gallon container last year from Lowes. The image on the right shows the benefit of getting a mature vine and based on their text I now understand why it will still require a year to bear fruit because most of the feeding roots are lost. I also understand (now) that a 3 yr old vine is only truly a 3 yr old vine if it is in its permanent location with root system intact. I now have a million more questions and questions for the vendor I decide to purchase from. Does the image on the right look better because, as the website says, It is a 3 yr old grape on its own root stock/ungrafted and does that mean I need to make sure the 3yr old grape I purchase is ungrafted if I want it to resemble the picture? This website suggested that it is best to plant a mature vine in November; am I too late to plant in January here in the southwest where it is kind of warm? Is there something I can do to speed the recovery of the feeding root regrowth so that there is the possibility of a small crop this year? The picture on the right is a cane with 2 shoots cut back to 2-3 buds per shoot if I have the terminology right. If I receive a plant like the pictured image, will I get vines on my 2 shoots this year and does that mean I will get 2 vines or closer to 6(a vine developing from each of the buds)???? Don't laugh, each one of you were a newbie at one point too :). My question for you experienced grape growers is what pruning method produces the most grapes? I at first only wanted 2 3 yr old grape vines to grow supported by a small trellis fence in my backyard as I don't have much space. Those two I would cane prune. After finding out that a will get very little fruit, if any, this year I am considering growing more vines and more varieties but I have very little space. If I add more vines to my order it will be 1 yr old vines that I would grow in a raised square foot garden bed with a trellis or as a container garden with a trellis. I understand that limiting the root depth will limit my fruit production. It looks to me like spur pruning produces more fruit than cane pruning so I was thinking that my extra vines that aren't directly ground planted could be spur pruned to offset a bit of the fruit loss from shallow roots. Do you think for those extra vines my pruning method will make a difference?

Yes, learning how to graft is on the top of to do list. I am only interested in non-astringent D. Kaki. I have not come across the ones that have seeds. I eat store-bought persimmons. They are pretty much seedless. A few more questions: if I plant persimmon seeds to start trees that I can graft on to, those seeds need to be from a rather cold hardy varieties, right? Say if I have an astringent variety for a tree, can I graft non-astringent scions to them? Are they compatible? If these questions may sound dumb, now you know that I don't know much about persimmon!!