wow! What a great thread! And I only came on the organic forum today because I finally made that compost bin and felt like gathering a little knowledge from fellow gardeners. Boy! Have you guys educated me! Along with the often unreliable words of 'organic' and 'sustainable' to describe gardening practices, where precisely does 'permaculture' fit in? I have had the opportunity to brush the surface of this topic, but haven't put it in perspective completely with the terms 'organic' and 'sustainable' yet. I know there is a permaculture formum on gardenweb, but this thread seems to be on the track of discussing such things, particularly how to "tread lightly on the earth" and how to feed individuals, families, villages and the world effectively. Organic farming is from the heart. It's such a long thread, I've already forgotten who said it. and I've mutilated the text, though hopefully not the meaning. That said, I'm in complete agreement with the sentiment. What we aspire to, ie producing nutritious food from the earth without damaging the earth, can not be regulated in any meaningful way until the whole of community changes thought patterns. The ideas of "nutritious food" and "not damaging the earth" need to be of higher priority than the profits that come of this coaxing life from dirt. Of course, many might counter that statement with thoughts on money efficiency. But here, I say again, these ideals can't be accomplished unless the individual, family, community and world changes thought patterns, especially as related to money and commerce. Well, I suppose that went off on a side-track..but I'd still like to know where you think 'permaculture' relates to the discussion of catchwords in agriculture and what the true wave of the future will be. Organic might be happening now, but how do you think these slacking regulations will affect the future of raising food? Trish

Rick, Our summer has been extremely wet and I lost some Huernai by root rot. I have been using Bayor 3 in 1 and seems to help. I also been using sulfur added to water. PH being lower kills fungus. I don't know where Stapelias stand with the PH scale. But the Bayor is what I use every year at about this time when watering before bring the plants in. I wish they didn't have the fertilizer in it. Don't want new growth now at this time of year. Would love to see other replys to this posting. Stush

Okiegardener, I think it probably is not worth trying based on at least 4 or 5 years' worth of anecdotal reports here on Garden Web from people who have tried it. When it first came out a few years ago, it generated a lot of buzz and I know that quite a few people on the Tomato Forum tried it because they wrote about it at the time. After trying it for a while, most of them quit talking about it and you did not see them recommending it to other people. That tells me all I need to know about it. If die-hard tomato afficianados who are willing to do virtually anything to grow healthier, more disease-free plants have tried this and are not raving about it and are not recommending it, then they clearly did not feel it made a notable difference in their plants. If Messenger was as effective as the manufacturer claims, you'd see people all over the gardening world just raving about it, and you just don't, and that should tell you something. You'll never know for yourself if you don't try it, but I wouldn't spend my money on it. Dawn

What insects and diseases are you fighting? If as a just in case, don't spray either one. Please show us pictures.