Go small...big trees sit in the ground for a couple of years before they have recovered,...and are more prone to get sick
fire blight etc.
Remember,.. allot of roots had to be cut off to fit that pot.
Small trees take off much faster and reach same size in a hurry.
Konrad

Hi Konrad,

Thanks for the opinion!

However, these aren't potted trees that local farms have, they are field grown in "root bags", which I am not familiar with.

But I am leaning towards going the small tree routes and getting a whole orchard from the price of a couple of the large trees!

AC

I second the small trees. Most experienced fruit tree growers will agree. In the short amount of time I have been growing fruit trees, I have been amazed at the rapid rate of growth. I heard first year sleep, second year creep, third year leap. But I'll be danged if they didn't "leap" the first year.

I do have to ask, how do you have black rich river bottom soil at 8,000 feet elevation?

Hi,

As to how I have what I call river bottom soil, maybe I mis-stated a bit...

I bought a piece of property recently that is amazing for me, coming from normally dry, alkaline red clay type NM soil...

It's in a canyon, but gets good summer solar exposure, that has a stream splitting it, that over the years deposited tons of rich, black soil. The stuff is like digging in potting soil! I can't even set fence posts in the stuff, it's so darn loamy, and light. I have tons of wild stuff growing, strawberries, raspberries, garlic, roses, and tons of other stuff I have yet to identify! It's a forested garden of eden! It gets a deep snowpack in the winter, and has no wind - just too protected in a canyon, surrounded by Mature Spruce, and Fir.

It will be a few years before I am dialed into micro climates, and figure out just what WILL do well here in cultivated plants, but gardening is my passion!

I'm putting in some Lilacs tomorrow, and working on a 60' raspberry bed! I want to put in maybe 10 fruit trees, but still have some snow on my planned planting area - down from 3 feet a few weeks ago, to almost gone now.

AC

Sounds like you have a pretty unique location there, natureman! Good for you for using it to the fullest and planning an orchard. Mind if I suggest a couple varieties you may want to check into?
Carolina Red June is said to do well on many different types of soils and ripening in late June/early July might appeal to everyone. It also tends to bloom late and might avoid any late freezes your area could be prone to.
Also, I read that Newtown Pippin needs a loamy, friable soil to produce a "high quality crop". This apple has a pretty interesting history.

One thing I like to point out when planting your fruit trees...make sure they are on high ground, a slop is good, they don't like getting their feet wet for too long.
Konrad

Sometimes smaller is better! not only will you save money, but the time between fruit set may only be one year later and possibly just the same as with the bigger more expensive trees, so either more trees in your yard or money in your pocket.
Ken

Boy, you guys are trying to put me out of business!. I sell bearing age fruit trees and my customers often come back for more as they expand their orchards. Yes, a bearing age tree needs to be coddled more and flowers shoud be removed the first season they establish but they can greatly accelerate time to harvest- I guarantee it.

The other option for apples is to grow dwarf trees for early fruit. For pears or European plums getting a more mature tree is invaluable if cutting a few years from planting to harvest is worth the price to you. Peaches are more questionable although I sell a lot of 2.5 inch calibre trees.

Japanese plums hardly stagger at all when transplanted at bearing age and for the less precoscious varieties 5 years can be cut off the waiting time by planting at bearing age.

I admit that most of my customers are extremely wealthy, but not all and if you are in no hurry, best to plant bare root trees. Some of my customers gave up on small trees because they wanted to start with a tree above the deer browse line after loosing the small trees they planted.

If you plant bearing age trees it is extremely important to move while still dormant and don't allow water stress at any point during their first 2 seasons. Remove all flowers the first year and keep all competing roots of weeds and even large nearby forest trees away from where your new trees are establishing roots (5' mulched ring).

Thank you for all the opinions!

The main reason I was thinking about larger trees, is as I get older, I am more anxious to see the fruits of my labor, so to speak.....perhaps get a few from a local tree farm, and also do some bareroot mail order trees....but for me, using places such as Starks, and Gurney's, this has always been a hit and miss issue. Sometimes, trees come looking great, with super roots, other times, they look like a "Home Depot Plastic Wrap Special", with no roots. Sometimes they are healthy 1/2 inch, sometimes, they are thinner than pencils, looking like a sucker someone dug up and sent me!

This is "round 2" of this whole orchard plan, 10 years ago, I did the exact same thing, but in an area that was in an arid desert zone 6, south of Santa Fe, plus the few years after I planted turned into some of the worst droughts, and wind seen in years. Went 10 months without a drop of rain..or snow.... I struggled and struggled, sometimes having to water new trees twice a day! It was an area that had great "drainage and solar exposure"......too much in fact. ; )

I lost nearly every tree eventually, as I had not planned on hauling as much water as I had to - as it was an off grid, no well site.

Well, my new land, is the exact opposite, a forested, lush green in the summer, with all the water I will ever need with a stream, well, and spring, and to top it off, catchment from a cistern! But, in reality, with a 25 - 40 inch annual rainfall, won't need a lot of irrigation.

My main issue is getting enough sun, winter exposure is maybe 4 hours a day, but in the late spring and summer, I should have around 75% exposure, which I believe will be ok for fruit trees? I do lose an hour or so in the morning, and evening, as I am in a canyon, but facing south.

Sorry for rambling on - like most gardeners, this time of the year is about to go into overdrive! ; )

AC

Should be alright for all but late ripening cultivars. Yes, buying a few large trees might be the ticket and filling in with BR's. That's what I recommend where price IS an object.

I have had great success transplanting large trees bare root, by the way. Just have the site ready and plug them in immediately after digging. Most often pears will be sluggish no matter what- even yearlings. Many knowledgable people recommend cutting them back severevly after transplant although that is generally not the recommendation for other species.

If the baring age trees have a lot of spurs you should remove a lot if not most of them. They will suck energy from the rest of the tree even if you remove flowers because they get priority forming flowers for next year.

I recently went with the large trees, most 8-9 inches tall and 1 1/2 inch caliper. I think in retrospect that there is probably is an in between point for those of us who are impatient. 2 years ago I planted 2 apple and 2 plum. Now 2 years later they are larger than the trees I just bought. So, in comparison, $40 compared to $125, the $40 dollar tree was a great buy. Don't get me wrong, the new trees look awesome and are budding out. They will provide hours of work and fun, however, so will the apple and plums which are huge and look awesome.

>I recently went with the large trees, most 8-9 inches tall Is that all they get in Kansas?

Konrad,
Not sure if I understand your question. The first trees I bought at a local nursery. They were about 4 to 5 feet each and $40. Due to limited local selection (apples and plums is about all), I ordered this year through the internet.

I think the point is that you said "8-9inches", but probably meant 8-9 feet. You said you went with "large" trees and 8-9 inches hardly seems large.

Konrad,

We can grow them bigger than that here in KS. 5' of growth/season on peaches is not unusual with good soil. We get 180-220 frost free days depending on where you're at in the state. Plenty of moisture on the eastern side, in fact too much. Their calling for as much as 3 inches today.

Personally, I'd go with the small to medium sized trees (unless your in Kansas, in which case I'd go with huge trees in the neighborhood of at least 3' to 4' tall). As noted above, smaller trees will often become established more quickly.

One important thing to consider, when looking at the larger trees, is whether they have been pruned and developed to have a very good structure. If not, you may be buying a large mess.

The larger trees should be OK if they have a large enough rootball. The rootbags (if they are what I assume they are) will provide a much better root structure from a given rootball size compared to a potted or bare-root plant. The rootbags allow the tree to develop a large number of small fibrous roots in a small area and reportedly allows the tree to suffer much less shock when transplanted.

Let me put it this way, when I want to try a new cultivar in my orchard, I take something that's at least 3 years old from my nursery so I don't have to wait more than 2 years for fruit. I take a loss by not planting a whip because I can sell anything I produce. However, because of my experience growing and installing thousands of trees in home orchards- young and older- I believe in the advantage of more mature trees.

Even when my clients buy these ridiculously shaped trees from other nurseries with about 10 times too many scaffolds that have been headed back for 3 seasons into a lollipop shape, I can quickly correct that and the tree will be productive much more quickly than starting with a whip. Of course I often have to graft those trees to other varieties when the customer realizes that Red Delicious and Yellow Delicious may not be the only varieties they want to grow.

Harvestman
Question? You are saying that this first year I need to take off all of the flowers? Therefore, does it really matter if I get a late freeze? Also, does this include all types of fruits.
Thanks so much!
Jenny

If the transplanted tree experienced root damage, as any but a purely container grown tree does I would recommend removing all flowers on every temperate fruit tree I grow except Jap plums. JPs which are so extraordinarily vigorous, at least on Myro roots, that they are hard to stunt.

Thanks Harvestman! I appreciate the advice and am glad that you are optimistic.

Harvestman,

I think you are still thinking of trees that have had some reasonable care and training. Some of the stuff out there is a mess. If you have a tree full of poor crotch angles etc, removing a few scaffolds is not going to do the trick. My point above was that if you buy a larger tree, it becomes even more important to think about exactly what you're getting or at least be sure to purchase it from someone who has done their job. Don't you want them to buy the trees from you instead of the dummy down the road selling junk that's probably never really going to be exactly right without a ton of work?

I'm with you all the way brandon7. For my yard I don't want to buy a mature tree thats 8ft-12ft tall that will produce a lot of fruit for the birds to eat. I want a tree that was topped when it was still a whip and pruned and trained into a tree that produces well at a hight I can reach.The end result I am looking for is to have trees that produce well and are easy to care for and you can't buy those kinds of trees.

There is an old saying that says "If you want something done right you have to do it your self." and when it comes to fruit trees in a none commercial environment I believe this saying applies. At least for me it does.

I don't know what kind of fruit trees you're growing. I want a free standing 12-14' tall fruit tree at maturity. If you want to grow dwarfs, I already stated that you might as well start with a whip.

If you can't straighten out an apple or pear tree that's been mistrained I have no idea how you will be able to train any tree- it's just not all that complicated- you remove the excess scaffold branches back to the trunk either gradually or immediately. If remaining scaffolds are excessively lanky you may have to head them back and retrain out. If you are getting a substantial root system with the tree this will all take substantially less time than starting with a whip.

When I've confronted trees like this I have them in pretty good shape the first season and they bear fruit just as soon as if they'd been properly trained- just not as much. By the third season the tree will look pretty much as though I trained it from the beginning.

Once a pome has a substantial rootsystem and a decent trunk you are on your way.