Glenn:

I have always considered the underground spreading shoots of blackberries and raspberries to be stolons rather than rhizomes, but I could be wrong about that. It doesn't make much difference.

The Indian names for the blackberry cultivars you mention are all from a series released by the University of Arkansas, which chose to name them this way. The first thorny blackberry I ever grew was Darrow, who I believe was a plant scientist. He was not an Indian.

I have to tell you I don't think much of your concept of introducing a cultivated blackberry variety into a thicket of wild blackberries and whatever else might be growing there. Disease transfer from wild species is always an issue, and you have to assume that the domesticated varieties would be able to outcompete the wild. I don't think that is a safe assumption. The reason your cultivated thornless varieties are doing so well is no doubt due to the fact that you care for them so well, including elimination of the competition. I wouldn't expect any of these varieties to do well in a wild thicket. When I see a thicket on arable land I think thicket removal.

I may also be wrong about this, and it may be just the coincidence of the varieties I have grown myself, but I tend to believe that thornless varieties are usully of the tiprooting persuasion (although they will also occasionally spread underground), while the thorny varieties put out more stolons or rhizomes or whatever they are.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Hi Don-
Thank you for your reply.

I have considered the disease transference issue, but I'm wondering how significant for me it really is. Really, my property is literally surrounded by wild blackberries and raspberries, and in some cases, I'm as little as 5 feet away (cultivated plants near the edge of the yard) from the wild ones. Is this situation all that different? Perhaps. You probably are right, though, about my cultivated ones having the advantage of no competition. And, maybe in a competition situation they wouldn't do as well as I was thinking they would.

Unfortunately, I do have other reasons why I shouldn't take out the thicket entirely. But, it's a long story.

Ahhh, so you're saying I might not be able to find a rhizome/stolon/whatever-spreading thornless variety.

Even if I don't go ahead with this, just for my own knowledge, what's your favorite rhizome-or-stolon spreading variety?

On a related note, I'm looking forward to some tasty Doyle's and TC's this summer. Once they arrive, I'll have to go look up your article and see how my experiences compare to yours. Last years canes came in great, but I don't expect full production until next year.

Thanks again,
-Glenn

Generally, with exceptions: Stolons are above ground (strawberry runners as an example) and rhizomes are below ground.

But then tip-rooting blackberries could be stolons on a larger scale, the result is the same.

I've been around quite a few boysens and marions, both thorny, and don't recall sprouts coming up all over distant from the rows.

On rare occasion, my thornless blacks have sprouts distant from the mother clump, but these sprouts originate from deep down, a foot or more below the ground.

And I doubt the cultivated varieties would compete well pluncked down in a wild patch; even if they grew and fruited, they would get swallowed up and you would have to maintain a dethorned path to them. As an experiment, you could try planting some at the edge of the wild patch and see what happens.

Hi Larry_Gene-
Thank you for your reply.

That's interesting about your thornless black's appearing distant from the mother clump. If it happened here, it wouldn't be a problem as they'd just get mowed. And I take it you're sure it couldn't have simply come from a stray seed?

As an experiment, you could try planting some at the edge of the wild patch and see what happens. That was exactly my original intention. Basically, I had been thinking of putting them on the sunny side of that thicket... so, they'd have nutrient competition (although that's some of the richest, blackest dirt you've ever seen), but not really light competition.

Thanks again,
-Glenn

Hi Glenn,

Yes, the erect thornless propagate themselves exclusively by underground roots (whatever their called). I suppose you might be able to tip root them if you could bend the canes over, but they don't naturally want to do that. The crowns aren't clumpy either like Triple Crown. Instead they just throw up a new cane wherever they feel like it. I've seen them send canes up three feet from the row. Don's right, U of AR names all their erect thornless after Indian tribes, just like they use planet names for their grapes. Texas A&M also bred some erect blackberries, but I believe all theirs were thorny, and they named all their varieties after pickup trucks. Just kidding :-)

Thanks Olpea. I knew you'd chime in. Got a favorite variety? -Glenn

Not stolons or rhizomes, just root suckers. All blackberries are propagated commercially from 6" root cuttings. Trailing blackberries (youngberries, loganberries, dewberries, boysenberries) tip-layer naturally, like black raspberries and Dormanred.

Thorny upright blackberries like Kiowa, Chickasaw, Ebony King, throw up lots of suckers. Thornless not as much. Ouchita is an exception, there are probably others.

So, it seems we have no agreement on what to call those underground things:

Glenn: Rhizomes - This is what I've seen on most of the raspberry propagation pages I've read... but it doesn't make it right.
Jellyman: Stolons
Olpea: underground roots
Eskota: root suckers
Other: underground runners

Ahhh, well, it doesn't really matter I guess. I just would prefer to use the proper terminology in my posts.
-Glenn

Erect blackberries have adventitous buds on their roots, and it seems that the erect thornless ones don't have quite as many adventitous buds as the thorny ones, like eskota says. Semi-erect and trailing don't have them (well, maybe it's best to say they don't have nearly as many adventious buds). Raspberries also have adventitous buds. So there's no structure there other than the roots, folks! The emerging cane that's growing from the adventitous bud is called a "root sucker."

Glenn, the proper "categorization" of blackberrie is erect/semi-erect/trailing. Of course, those lines are getting blurred somewhat, given some crosses that are being made that combine all three types.

Also, the Arkansas "Indian name" erect cultivars are both thorny and thornless.

Glenn, So far, I prefer Apache. They are the biggest and sweetest. Still, they aren't quite as sweet as Triple Crown.

Fruitgirl,I don't believe the erect thorny varieties Prime Jim and Prime Jan are named after Indians. Then again, if there is the Jan and Jim tribe, they sound like some of my relatives. We always were kind of a wild family.

Glad to see the word "adventitious" above, it best describes what happens in my berry patch.

Adventitious shoots come up from considerable depth and at a distance from the main clump (and are not confused with first-year seedling plants). The tip-rooting roots are also referred to as adventitious.

And they are persistent; another cluster of sprouts is up from a root I severed last year.

You're right...those two are named after Dr. Jim Moore, who started the breeding program and his wife Jan. I just wanted to make sure folks new that the thorny "Indian" named ones were also from the AR program.

The newest primocane fruiter is PrimeArk45.

Interesting Fruitgirl. I can't find any info about PrimeArk45 on the net. Do you know any more about it? Any links? Any idea when it will become available? Thanks, -Glenn

Here you go, straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak! I forgot the - between prime and ark, so that's probably what messed you up.

It may take it a while to filter down to the small-scale sales level, but go ahead and start looking. I know the retail division of my company (I'd prefer to not name it!) doesn't have it yet, but should by early next year. We're only supplying other nurseries (we're an initial propagator) and commercial customers at the moment.

Here is a link that might be useful: Prime-Ark 45

I'll add a bit of my experience with TC. I put out 4 small mail-order plants in March of one year and they grew reasonably. In December I dug them up and moved them. I took as big a shovel-full as I could when I moved them, but still left a few root bits behind. Those roots sprouted into new plants. I sometimes think this is a good way to propagate. Just dig out the main clump and let the roots sucker up.

As far as moving our domesticated varieties into the wild, I figure it has to happening quite frequently, by seed. I've seen birds fly off with a blackberry from one of my plants, and I'm sure the seeds get distributed far and wide. Of course, we don't know exactly what will grow from those seeds, or if they can compete in the wild.

I grew a row of Prime Jan from tissued cultured plugs from Nourse last year. They looked like a tube of roots with two strawberry leaves when I planted them in May. They grew 4', big, bushy and thorny. I didn't get too many berries because they didn't ripen before the frosts in my area. I cut them down in January. I went out there today and there are little shoots springing up 2' from the main crown. I didn't expect this.

Berries Unlimited sell the new Prime Ark 45.