I wouldn't think so. Unlike wild blackberries, most modern blackberries spread by tip rooting, and not underground runners. I know my Chesters have never popped up any where else, (because I don't let the tips touch/stay on the ground), and I believe Apache is the same way. I think you should be fine.
-Glenn

Actually Glen, unlike trailing varieties, erect varieties aren't designed to propagate by tip rooting. They spread primarily by their roots. They don't stay in a crown like trailing varieties.

Ahhh, ok, so my Chester's are (semi-)trailing, but the Apache is erect, and that's the difference. Ok, my mistake. Thanks olpea. So it sounds like you probably don't want to plant them in the same bed after all. -Glenn

Just make sure you want them there for a long time or that you don't mind using Roundup.

I pulled out an Apache last fall. I tried to get all of the root but I see maybe 8-10 shoots coming up from where it was.

Thanks. But why did you want to get rid of your Apache plants? Didn't you like the berries?

Is the same true of Triple Crown and Navaho? I just bought 1 of each and planned to plant them in the same bed.

All of the mentioned blackberries will tip-root, if their canes contact the ground, which is largely under your control. They will not send adventurous runners like raspberries, but will form a large, underground crown from which new canes sprout.
If you remove the crown, it is likely that some bits will be left behind to sprout, likely from thick sections of root that were near the crown.

Sorry, tcstoehr, that's not correct information. Erect blackberries (Apache, Navaho, Ouachita, Kiowa, etc) DO sprout from the roots. That's why they are grown and manged as a hedgerow rather than as individual plants like the trailing and semi-erect types are.

I would put the Apache and Chester in separate beds, simply because the Chester will require a much more involved trellis than the Apache will. Plus, the Apache could very well grow into the space you want the Chester to occupy.

keepitlow,

The Apache wasn't very productive, produced berries that didn't taste very good relative to the others and had a lot of white drupelets.

I live near Portland, OR and much prefer my other varieties. Caveat: I only have one location originating from one plant of each variety so aside from my geography and climate my experience could be influenced by the particular plant I got of each variety and/or differences in the conditions at each plant's location.

I find the following description from OSU to be pretty accurate.

Large, firm, tough skin, black,
glossy, round, lumpy, seedy,
prone to sunburn (UV damage),
fair flavor

Here is a link that might be useful: Blackberry Cultivars for Oregon

Interesting Murky,

I found Apache to be almost as good as Triple Crown. But then again, OSU doesn't give Triple Crown a glowing review either. I found Apache and TC to be sweet and quite tasty. I wonder if it's climate, or I've never really had a truly delicious blackberry. Makes me wonder what (thornless) Black Pearl (they rate excellent) or (thornless) Black Diamond taste like. Oregon can keep their thorny varieties, but I wonder how some of their thornless would do in Zone 6 midwest? Anyone tried Black Pearl, Black Diamond, or Waldo in zone 6?

I find the trailing types popular in Oregon are somewhat better tasting than the erect and semi-erect kinds grown in the east and midwest. I have grown Marionberries in the past and they are my favorite tasting berry. The very best Triple Crown berries are almost as good, but it is only that rare one that you get at absolute perfect ripeness; the Marionberries are much more reliably sweet and rich. For cooking the difference is not much at all. I found the Marions hard to grow however, and I don't think they are hardy in zone 7. This spring I am starting a new planting with some of the newer trailing varieties including Black Pearl and I am hopeful they will be easier to grow. Given the hardiness problems I had with Marionberry (rated zone 7) I would be a bit concerned about the hardiness of Black Pearl in its rated zone 6.

Scott

Glad you chimed in Scott. I knew you had some Oregon trailing types and spoke favorably. For some reason I thought you were in Zone 6. Maybe my location would be stretching the hardiness for these Oregon varieties. It hasn't gotten below zero here for several years, but it regularly gets down near zero. Probably too cold for the Oregon types.
Thanks,
Mark

Mark, your temps sound identical to mine - it almost never gets below 0 here but gets close almost every winter. I would give them a go. Raintree is selling several of the highest-rated ones for flavor. One Green World is also selling some, but not the ones that were rated as highly in the aforecited report. I used the above report to pick my varieties. BTW if you have never grown these trailing types they are a bit more of a hassle to grow since the canes need to be kept out of the aisles by regularly tying them up. The canes want to grow along the ground, not up at all.

Scott

On the true trailing types, you don't have to tie the canes up as they grow...you can allow them to sprawl out over the ground. If you need to mow the row middles, just shove them to the side as best you can. During the winter, you can then cover the canes with a thick layer of straw, which will help insulate them and hopefully help them make it through the winter. Then tie the canes up when spring comes.

fruitgirl, that is a good technique but I found it didn't work so well for me - they would grow too quickly and were always in the aisles getting mowed. Tying them up means it will take them longer to get back to the aisles. Insulating them is a very good thing to do in a borderline zone. When I was growing Marions I would put them on the ground and cover them with aluminum bubble insulation in the winter.

Scott

Scott, I'm going to keep this in the back of my mind. I'm still wondering if they can handle our temps. The OSU website said budkill occurs at 13F. If that's true, then they would never fruit here, unless they were covered. It got down close to zero several times this winter. Also I get a little winter dieback on the tips of Triple Crown, and these trailing types are supposed to be even more winter tender. Do you see any tip dieback on your Triple Crown? Do you plan on covering and insulating your new varieties, like you did the Marions?

Olpea,

You say that for you Apache is almost as good as Triple Crown. Well, maybe it is due to the difference in conditions. My place should be pretty similar to OSU in climate.

Or maybe the difference between "fair" and "good" isn't that big.

From their list I've grown and tasted: ORUS 1843, Nightfall, Lochness, Black Satin, Apache roughly in order of usefulness.

ORUS 1843 is far and away the best tasting of the lot. It has an intense, fruity, distinctive flavor but the berries are small and soft so take some care and labor to harvest.

Nightfall also has a an intense and distinctive flavor. It isn't as complex as the ORUS flavor though and is EXTREMELY tart. Its had a much greater yield and is an order of magnitude easier to pick than the ORUS though. I'd say for me those 2 have been a success and the others have been either relegated to "wait and see" or aren't worth their space.

I tore out the Apache last fall after giving it two chances to impress me. I thought maybe they weren't fully established or I had a cultural problem, but that OSU site describes them to a T.

Most of the fruits had some white drupelets. The ones that didn't had tough chewy skin, big seeds and an unpleasantly firmer core (I presume that's what they mean by lumpy). And the flavor was mildly sweet and bland. I'd much rather eat the wild weed blackberries that are everywhere here.

I'm giving Triple Crown a shot this year. I hope I don't have the problem with sunburn. I wonder if my site exacerbates it because it is shielded from morning sun.

I'm intrigued to try Black Pearl because the others rated excellent by OSU (ORUS 1843 and Marion) really are much better than anything else I've tried.

murky, the problem with white drupelets is a genetic thing. It does seem to be a bit worse in some environments, but it's definitely a genetic thing. None of the other Arkansas cultivars do this and I've not heard of it on Triple Crown, either. That's not to say you might not get some sunburn/heat damage in extreme weather events, because I know that happens occasionally in Oregon commercial blackberry fields.

And as to flavor, remember that it's a subjective thing! The flavor profiles in the trailing blackberries are quite different than in the erect blackberries. Their genetic background is quite different, so it's not really too much of a surprise. The plant habit is so completley different, too. I've found that people who are native to the PNW much prefer the trailing blackberry flavors, while people native to the east coast find the erect and semi erect types to be quite pleasing.

Also, Chad Finn, the USDA breeder stationed at OSU, is making some REALLY exciting crosses between trailing, erect, and semi-erect types. His ultimate goal is to combine the flavor of the trailing types with the plant habit of the erect. It'll be quite a few more years yet before anything comes of it, but I'm really looking forward to seeing what happens.

I found this link while trying to learn more about black pearl.

Here is a link that might be useful: everything you wanted to know about black pearl

Murky,

Like I said, maybe I've never had a truly scrumptious blackberry. But compared to berries around here Apache is very good. I wouldn't describe it as chewy at all, even less as "mildly sweet and bland." I would describe them as very large, sweet and juicy. They do have large seeds, but maybe I'm just used to eating Midwest blackberries. They all have large seeds and one really can't "chew" them like, say, a strawberry. Instead you "gum" them by lolling 'em around your mouth with your tongue while lightly chewing. Sorta like a baby eating baby food. In fact, I don't think one needs teeth at all to eat Midwest blackberries, which is good news. When our teeth eventually fall out of our heads, we can still go right on eating blackberries.

Murky,

You mentioned Black Satin. Did you grow that variety? If so what was your impressions of it? Or anyone else who has experience with it? I saw it at a nursery here in Ontario and was thinking of getting it. I've planted Triple Crown and Chester also this spring.

Also about those white drupelets you mentioned. I know you've pulled those plants now but something that might be an interesting experiment for others who find them would be to extract the seeds out of those white drupelets and germinate them. I would guess the seedlings would produce a completely unpigmented blackberry. I have unpigmented black raspberry plants that produce very tasty yellow raspberries and from what I've read was more than likely the result of high UV/heat damage during the berry stage on the original black cap plant that changed the genetics of the berry and seed within. Anyways that might be something for any adventurous gardener to try.

I'm just across the Columbia River from Murky, and have grown black satin and triple crown together for several years. They can be planted next to each other because the foliage and fruit can be told apart.

Black Satin is a good cooking berry, but the window of harvest opportunity for best sweetness and flavor is only 2-3 days, whereas a triple crown berry be harvested a week either side of peak ripeness and still be of high quality.

I've never figured out the white drupelet thing, but it does not depend on stinkbugs and direct sun. My latest theory is that very hot weather sets off the genetic defect. I have it about equally in both blackberry varieties.