Hi Dixietn-
Personally, I would not plant any thorny blackberries when there are so many good thornless ones available. The local U-Pick has thorny ones (not sure the variety), and I think mine are every bit as good and productive, but with out the vicious thorns. Mine are (thornless) Chester which many people here think that Triple Crown is much better for Taste, and Doyle is much better for productivity. (I'm planting both of those in a few weeks) The only time I'd consider a thorny variety is for some sort of raspberry hybrid (Wyeberry, Loganberry, Tayberry, etc) which wouldn't come in a thornless variety. -Glenn

So the seed size is really not an issue? Thanks.

I've not had any problem with seeds in thornless. You should also check out the University of Arkansas varieties (Apache and Navaho are popular)

The only thorny variety I have heard good reason to plant over a thornless is Kiowa. It has monster fruit (like the size of a large egg). Still not worth it in my opinion, because the thornless are VERY good quality and dealing with thorny vines all the time is no fun at all.

Have fun!

We started with 25 Triple Crowns and love the sweet fruit. The only drawback after 10 yrs is that they are a bit late maturing in NW WA and many years the rains start and mold the harvest. But they are very productive. Tom

Hi. I'm new to the site and have a load of questions. I live in Northern VA, and was wondering which blackberry is better Navaho or Triple Crown? How much space do these take up? Can I plant them next to raspberries or blueberries? Do I need to trellis them? When is the best time to plant them and how long until they fruit? That's all, I think :)
Karla

Karla
(My name is Carla!)You replied to my post so if you don't get any responses to your questions, you might want to do a new topic post. The only thing I can say is Triple Crown is listed as "semi-erect" so will probably need trellising. I am ordering Arapaho, Apache & Navajo & all are listed as erect, so I hope in the future they won't need to be trellised. I'm also ordering blueberries & raspberries. I have one section that is very acidic & great for blueberries, I'll just have to check about the other 2 fruits. Good luck & welcome. Very helpful people around here.

Karla,

Triple Crown is very vigorous. It was named Triple Crown for its three "crowning" attributes: Flavor, Vigor, Production. It's designed to be trellised. I bought mine from Nourse Farms (great nursery) but they indicated spacing could be at three feet. This is too close. Last fall I pulled out every other plant, so the spacing is not at 6 feet which I think will be about right. I have Navaho now also, although it hasn't fruited yet. According to many, it's supposed to be slightly better flavor than Triple Crown. Brix is a point higher. One drawback is it's susceptible to Orange Rust, whereas TC isn't. Both varieties fruit on their second growing season. Plant them this spring.

Carla,

Arapaho isn't a very sweet berry. We found it bitter unless perfectly ripe (practically falling off the cane). It's also a smaller berry. We grubbed it out. As far as I can see, its only advantage is an early berry. But if your patient, you'll be rewarded with a much sweeter and larger berry when Apache ripens.

Carla,

I don't run across many people with the same name (or close) to mine so it's always fun meet someone that does. Thanks for the help and advice.

Olpea,
Thanks for the response. I'll keep the 6' spacing in mind.

Karla

Hi Olpea-
I just ordered the parts for my blackberry trellis. 24' feet for 6 blackberries: 2 Triple Crown, 2 Doyle, 1 Chester, 1 Wyeberry. 4' spacing has worked out fine for my Chester's. I'm hoping 4' won't be the end of the world here? I often go out and steer the canes in-between the wires, etc, so I often put them right where I want them. And, I can always remove a cane or two. I'm hoping that 4 feet is ok.
-Glenn

Hi Glenn,

I had 3' spacing and they were crowded. It was convenient to take out every other crown, leaving 6' spacing. The crowns I took out, were used to start another row. I think just about any spacing would work, depending on how much you want to prune. Look at Scott Smith. He defies all rules when it comes to tree spacing, but makes it work. So I think 4' would work fine, but if I had to do it all over again, knowing their vigor, I would start out with 6' spacing.

Sounds like you're going to have a nice combination of blackberries.

Olpea-
Sounds like you're going to have a nice combination of blackberries. I'm hoping! I'll let you know in 2-3 years!

I'm wondering also if the 4 foot spacing has worked well for me because my Chester's are semi-erect, and the Triple Crown's/Doyles are going to want more (6' instead of 4') because they are trailing varieties? Would you agree with that? (Not that I know what to do about it... I already ordered the pipe for the trellis!)

Thanks, -Glenn

Glenn:

Agree with Olpea that the very vigorous Triple Crown and Doyle blackberries are capable of filling in a trellis when spaced at 6 feet. But this is not a hard and fast rule, and if you have more plants than space do what you have to do. I would not, however, plant much closer than 4 feet.

I always thought Chester was a trailing type, but it may not be as vigorous as the newer types.

Dixietn: Triple Crown is not "semi-erect" by any stretch of that definition. It will be erect until it gets a little over 4 feet, then will fall over, which is not a good way to grow blackberries. This berry needs a trellis of some type.

Also, the seeds of TC and Doyle are no larger or different in any way from the thorny varieties. Later setting berries, which are usually smaller, may seem seedier, but that is true for any blackberry.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Thanks everyone - forums are much more helpful than catalog descriptions!

Hi Don-
Thanks as always. Now I'm wondering if I should just give away 1 of my TC's or DoyleÂs to make room... What would you get rid of? (TC or D? D was a lot more expensive! Leaning towards tossing a TC) If I got rid of 1, then, in that 16 foot space, I could have 3 plants, or 5.33 feet in-between. IÂd hate to toss one of the plants (actually, IÂd give it away, or plant it in a sub-par spot towards the woods), but IÂll always kick myself if itÂs not right. The Chester is still in the mix to act as a control (to compare to.. possibly vindicate my satisfaction with it!), as this is a very different area than my other CÂs. Later, once all area bearing, I could see my self replacing 1 or 2 of my 3 CÂs.

Interesting... This link has Triple Crown as being semi-erect: But, I'll believe you over them!
That same link also has Chester as semi-erect, but we may have already discredited them. This link has Chester as semi-trailing, so IÂm not sure. You thought it was trailing. ItÂs easy to see how people can be confused. My CÂs do what they do, and give me berries, so IÂm happy with them (though probably because I donÂt have Doyle or TC to compare with it.)

Thanks as always,
-Glenn

Dixietn-
Absolutely. All the nursery catalogs are biased IMHO (though they are good to get new ideas, or to see new varieties). They make all varieties sound great and perfect for your situation. Do your own research on the web, and stick around here. Ask lots of questions, and people are always willing to help. Without this site, IÂm sure IÂd still be struggling with all my fruit attempts!
-Glenn

Semi-erect and semi-trailing are basically the same thing. Semi-erect is the more "correct" term, though.

Triple Crown and Chester are most definitely semi-erect. The canes of true trailing types (the processing types grown in the PNW, like Obsidian), will just spread out all over the ground if not trellised--they most definitely won't stand up until they're four feet tall. The canes are also much thinner than those of semi-erect types.

Fruitgirl is right of course. The PNW has berry varieties that creep rather than stand. Triple Crown, Doyle, Chester, Black Satin etc. will stand up for a while before they really need support.

But I think it is good to remember that semi-erect does not mean they can be grown properly without support. They will curve over, flop over, or fall over, and it's not the best way to grow these varieties. They also get better light and air movement when they are on a trellis, and are a lot easier to pick.

Don Yellman, Great Falls, VA

Oh yeah, I would never suggest to try growing a semi-erect type without a trellis! Heck, I even think that the true erect types do better with a simple trellis of a t-post and bailing twine, just to provide a bit of support when the canes are heavy with fruit.

That's why I have trouble remembering if they are semi-erect or trailing. They both require trellis, so to me it's either erect or trailing. Or said another way, either trellised varieties or non-trellised.

OK, my Mom had surgery today & I just checked in & did not do a search, but has anyone posted pics of a trellis for the blackberries?

Here's a thread which has my blackberrry trellis in it. And, another thread, which talked about my related raspberry trellis. But, they are considered by some as overkill. There was another good thread here, but the links are broken in that one. I'd do some more searching here on this site, and you can probably find a couple more pics.
(Appologies to others for repeating myself. Trellises have come up a lot in the last week or so!)
-Glenn

I have 100 of the ouichata variety. What time of the year do I cut back the lateral shoots? Thanks

Summertime lol you need cut tip out of any thats 24 inches long the old slow growing variety are 18 inches long. The calender date does not apply to lateral prunning in warmer climate it can take upto 7 prunning on laterals.

Thanks a lot, gator rider2, you have straightened me out, I was confused from the Ag sites I had read. Preciate it.

I have 4000 Ouachita when get finish yours come help me its hot texas as soon cool down growth start back fast until frost. My next planting will be Natchez.

Here is a link that might be useful: This fair link to old stuff