I can't help you on the goat question ... might be able to assist with your rabbit questions... First off, rabbits do need to have food available to them 24/7. Do you have gravity feeders and water bottles? Rabbits also can't sweat ... so we would put water into empty soda bottles & freeze them and put them into the cages for the rabbits to lay next to. Winter you need to go out several times and make sure the water isn't frozen. What about hay racks? That would be a start. Also, you don't state how they are currently housed, what type and how many. Each rabbit should have it's own hutch/cage. They either need to be in raised wire cages under full cover with protection from wind, rain, snow or have an attached "doghouse" style hutch with wire runs attached. The food needs to be protected from the elements so it doesn't mold/mildew, ect... As far as sizing goes ... for holland lops 24x24x18"high was sufficient... larger breeds maybe 24x36 or 48" cages.

-Bonnie

Hello Sherry... nice to see you back here!

Rabbits are nibblers... but there are a lot that would overeat if given pellets 24/7. Then the authorities would tell you your rabbits are too fat.

I agree with getting hay racks and making sure they have hay and water at all times. I don't quite understand why it would be a problem to provide this. A good-sized water crock should only need filling morning and evening and the hay racks hold a fair bit too. Thrift stores have casserole dishes, small ice buckets and so forth that make good crocks. Look for containers that are stable and have straight sides and no lip for them to grab with their teeth. They won't fatten on grass hay and it is very good for them as roughage. Keeps them happy too... and occupied. If you do this, they will always have food and water in front of them when the SPCA comes calling.

Incidentally, WHY do they come calling? Is someone calling in complaints? The only time I have seen them here was when someone complained that my geese had no shelter in winter. Which was nonsense, as the SPCA officer saw when I showed him their nice house and the four of them all cosy inside it.

If you can move your rabbits into a building (barn, shed, garage, porch?) I suggest you do so, at least for the winter. My summer rabbitry is a frame clad in chain link and tarped against the weather... but come late fall, they will move into the other end of the goose house. It is still cold, but they are safe from the elements.

Sorry I can't help with the goat question. But there are knowledgeable goat people on this board, so no doubt you will get more replies soon.

Sherry, I have 4 goats in a 12'x 12' enclosure for sleeping. Your shed does sound a bit small. If the goats are related, they will snuggle together (mother and babies), but normally, they will spread out if they have the opportunity. Goats LOVE pine. We're talking pine needles, branches, bark, etc. They will eat pine even if they have just been fed the best alfalfa you can buy. We recycle all of our field cut Christmas trees with our goats and they love them. They strip them right down to the bare wood, and then chew on that too. So, that is not a concern.

Are your goats milking? If they are they might need more protein from alfalfa rather than grass hay and some grain, but if not grass is the way to go especially for the wethers. Do your goats look underfed? Maybe they need to be wormed. I don't know how "wormy" your area is, we hardly ever have to do it with the climate here. What sort of vegetable stuff do you give them? I only occasionally give my goats vegetables. They love pumpkin, but have never been too fond of lettuce, etc. They say cabbage is good, but if you are milking, that might create an off flavor.

I have raised goats for 10 years, but I am by no means an "expert". Let me know how it goes.

Bonnie Mc

how awful to go through this...I recently got 2 mini pygmy goats (twins sisters) they're in a small 4x6 house at night for sleep and protection from predators..then they're outside all day in the yard,I also have their house inside a gazebo for added protection...it works for me, I provide them with full supply of fresh hay and they also get mixed grain with pellets(goat feed) every morning...then they graze on the grass and chew up trees all day! don't see what the problem is for yours...seems someone's making your life miserable for you.
My rabbits are all in large hutches with a house and hay inside...with a bowl of pellets filled once a day..in the summer they have water at all times,but the winter is a harder job. But I refill twice a day and also give them packed down snow which they love as well! The hutches are not far off the ground,maybe 1/2 a foot or so but it's been like that for years! and they're all thriving and happy.

good luck to you coping with this spca thing,I hope I have heped out a bit somehow :(

SPCA is not a government entity - they're a private 'charity' organization. They've got no power, and no authority.
Next time they show up, tell 'em to 'bugger off'.

They claimed they had a complaint from someone but as I have no close neighbours not sure who lodged the complaint.I just have gotten around to responding to the replies as I have been working for the last week and this was the first opportunity I had to check this thread.
I lodged a complaint last Monday with the head office for the SPCA,but was told that likely nothing would come of it.
My rabbits are housed in all wire cages with the tops covered.The cages range in size from 24 to 36 inches in length to 18 inches wide.All are 18 inches high.
The food and water dishes are the white crocks the pet stores sell but mine came from the dollar store.I give each rabbit 3/4 of a cup a day along with their water.The breeds I have are holland lops,jersey woolies which belong to my niece and I raise and show mini rex.The MR are the ones that love to overeat and seem to be the ones the officers pick out when they say my rabbits are without food.The kicker about the rabbits being that they have seen the same rabbits for the last three months and none have died yet nor are in danger of doing so.I do offer hay but find that they prefer to sit on the hay as opposed to eating it.
The goats are all related.The whethers are grandsons to my oldest doe and the youngest doe is her daughter.The third doe is unrelated and usually will cuddle but stays on the outside while the two males and older female remain in the centre of the group.
I have increased the amount of hay and spent vegetables thinking it would end the tree snacking.The opposite seems to have occured though and now they are eating more bark from the trees and this week started on the maple trees in the enclosure.
I have started work on a 12 by 16 pole barn for the goats and rabbits.I plan to divide it into two sections and house the goats in one half and the rabbits in the other.My biggest concern is that I will never be able to get rid of the visits and am dreading the next visit.I have been doing what they asked but each time they come and see that I have or am trying to comply they come up with new things that they would like to see happen.
I originally was suppose to have a tarp raised up for the goats to shelter under.They wanted the same for the chickens.Apparently the goats and chickens were in danger of contracting rain rot otherwise.This is some of the crap I have been listening to for the last two years.It has gotten out of hand and I just want it to end so that was the reason for my questions regarding housing and feeding.Is there anyone out there who has been through this and,if so,how did things turn out in the end? Thanks for the advice so far.I will try and check the thread again a bit later.Sherry.

Sherry, if your rabbits have hay, it doesn't really matter if they eat it or not... The SPCA cannot then say they are without food.

A couple of points to consider...

Rabbits typically will not eat trampled or soiled hay... they are particular. A simple hay rack attached to side of the cage should help with this. Or stack it up in a clean corner and hold it in place with a piece of wire.

Also the type of hay may make a difference. Mine prefer an alfalfa/timothy mix to plain grass hay. And as I am weaning them off pellets onto an all-natural diet, they can use the extra protein. May be too rich for your smaller breeds though, especially if they eat mainly pelleted food, which usually has a high alfalfa content.

On the goats, mine LOVE eating bark! When we cut wood, I oftentimes give them a couple pieces of trunk, for them to climb on, as well as eat all the bark off. They love that! Around here, a lot of people only offer dog houses, like the igloo kind, for their goats' shelter. Maybe yours are bigger. My goats have igloo shelters, they do like them, both going INTO and jumping on. They also have a corner of my barn they can come and go as they please. But oftentimes I'll see one dozing off in an igloo. If they all get along, I don't think their shelter is too small. Does it have a door, or just like a 3 sided thing? It seems like you are being picked on for some reason!

As far as the rabbits....I had rabbits in the house for awhile. I couldn't take the smell anymore! Drove me nuts! Even though I kept cages and litter boxes clean, one of them liked to dig all the stuff out of the litterbox... so, my rabbits are now outside in the barn. They seem quite happy out there as well, they still get attention, they still have litterboxes (makes the cleaning job easier!) and my female doesnt' seem "bored" anymore, meaning she's not digging out the litter box anymore. I also have a hutch up by the house, for winter they will live in the garage, which is insulated, and rarely does water freeze in there in the wintertime. It gets cold, yes, but it does usually stay somewhat warmer in there than outside and I shouldn't have to worry about the water freezing up very often. One thing you could do, to "show" that the bunnies have food in front of them 24/7 is to buy some hay cubes and leave those in there to much on. Mine, anyway, don't go through them very fast. They also get hay... and a rabbit diet, and they also have a bowl of timothy hay pellets as well, which, like the hay cubes, they don't eat up very fast. So if you kept hay cubes or pellets in there at all times, you wouldn't go through it like you do the pellet food, but they would have food in front of them all the time. Good luck!

I thought that I should come back and check the thread.It's been quite a while since I last posted.I no longer have any animals;the spca came in on the 12th of October.I came home from work that friday to find everything gone.They even took my two border collies,who were in my home,waiting for my return from work.It has taken me this long to even come to terms with the loss.The day that they were taken my female collie gave me a hug as I was getting ready to head out the door for work.It was out of character for her to do this so at the time I gave her a pet and told her I'd see her later that day.
I have tried every recourse I can think of to find out what the SPCA did with the livestock and my two dogs.I've called numerous times asking for information,to have calls returned,and even went so far as to send a letter via the post office,all for nothing.I'm no further ahead with locating or finding out what happened to my animals then I was nearly two months ago.
It does'nt help either that when they did the raid they left some animals behind.I had six cats that they did'nt take as well as a hen with chicks,two quail,and two other chickens.One was a lone hen and the other a chick whose mother and siblings were taken.
The neighbours who spent the time buildling the platform for the rabbits recently recieved a call from the SPCA.Apparently they asked the wife to tell me that I have to catch my cats for them or I'll face even more charges then I currently am facing.The odd part about all this is that I've been trying to find out,via the courts,what the charges are.According to what one investigator told a lawyer I went to see there were charges before a crown prossecutor.I called the courts myself but no one seems to know anything about the charges that are suppose to exsist.
Is there anyone who might have some idea how the spca works with regard to seized animals here in Canada?
I keep hitting a dead end looking on my own.I have tried everything I can think of to find out what happened to the animals and what will happen now.No one seems to know anything.Contacting the SPCA was a waste of time and effort on my part as well.Thanks Sherry.

oh my god Sherry,I'm so sorry for your losses.

I would die..you must be going through absolute hell...aren't the spca suppose to take or help animals in need of help and homes? it's like a cop hiding in a driveway to catch some poor guy coming home from work tired,instead of doing "real" work.
I live in canada...are you on a farm? I really don't understand why this happened to you..where are you in canada?? I'm starting to get nervous now too because I have 2 goats,rabbits,hens and 2 dogs...

I use to live on a 120 by 200 lot with about the same number of animals before I moved where I live now.My new property is near Kennetcook in Nova Scotia.I bought four acres of treed land at the end of April.It's my intention to build on the land.I had planned on erecting a barn for the livestock and moving my dogs and cats as well as myself to a rental house for the winter.Now that idea is on hold.I am currently living in a town close to my job.
I have the same two neighbours looking in on the cats for me.I try and make it out to the property at least once a week.I lost a few weeks of work because of what happened.I thought that the SPCA would return and it took me nearly a month to realise that was'nt going to happen.
It has been hell and I can't help but worry that I'll never see either of my two dogs again.The farm animals mean something to me as well but nothing like the two dogs.It was the worst feeling to come home and find both gone.I had been warned that the goats would be taken if I did'nt erect a barn for them in six weeks time.That moved me and my neighbours to work on the pole barn.Nothing like trying to balance a new job,care for the animals and worry about getting a barn erected in time.When the six weeks passed my neighbours and I thought that the SPCA had been blowing smoke.
No such luck,and now I have a pole barn that is half completed,I sort of lost interest for a few weeks,but have decided to finish it in hopes the SPCA will contact me about what is required to regain ownership of the animals.
I worried so much about the goats and dogs when they were first taken.Thought of how much stress the dogs would be under,my female most of all.She shuts down if she is scared and will refuse to move from the spot she is in.She's never bitten but I don't know how she'd react to someone she did'nt know grabbing her.My male is the opposite and probably greeted the officers when they entered my home that day.
As for the goats the big thing was the feeding change they would face.I had been feeding my goats timothy hay as well as a variety of fruits and vegetables.Daily they were getting lettuce,squash,potatoes,tomatoes,corn and stocks,apples,bread,kiwis,avacados,turnips,cabbage,greens,beets,beans,peas,ect to eat.I had made arrangements with a local fruit and vegetable stand to let me have their older stock.The only thing wrong with it was age.It had to be taken off the shelf to make room for newer produce.
I plan on returning to my property in early December and finishing the pole barn.It won't be anything fancy but I do hope it will be good enough,if there is such a thing,for the SPCA.I am still hopeful that I'll have Meagan and Schooner home for Christmas.I really don't know what prompted them to take the two dogs with the rest of the animals.They claimed that the shed was'nt large enough for five goats.It may not have been but two were suppose to be slaughtered early in November.At that point the goat shed,at 32 square feet was more then large enough for three does.AS for the chickens they had a coop.Not a large one only about 30 feet square but it was 8 feet high and none of the birds seemed to have any problems with overcrowding.
The rabbits,as I have since found out,can live outside as long as they have covers over the cages they live in.I had that for each and every rabbit I owned.I asked a fellow breeder of rabbits how long a 25 KG bag of pellets should last 30 rabbits.Her answer was about a week,which was how often I had to buy a bag.Every 7 or 8 days I was buying a bag for them.The lifespan of the pellets is 30 days so the bag I purchased two days before the raid is now too old to use.By the time I found this out the pellets were nearly 25 days old so I can't even give them to anyone else to use.
I'm sorry this post is so long but I needed to vent.It may prevent someone else from going through what I've been dealing with.There is nothing worse then raising animals from the time they are babies and then having all your hard work taken from you in a single day.Sherry
P.S. Which area of Canada are you from?

I'm in quebec.....so were you actually living on the lot with your animals when they removed them from you?Or were you in the town by then? Cause maybe they took them thinking that noone was living there at the time?? Are they giving you any answers at all?? seems so crazy and cruel to me. you obviously love your animals very much,as we all do here.

No,I have heard nothing since they took the animals.It was very obvious that I lived there.My vehicle was parked in my yard,I was going to work with a co-worker,and I had left the dishes in the sink that morning.As well the two dogs were in the house.I never left them outside if I was working or away for the day.The two officers knew I worked.I figure that they came at the time they did just so I would'nt be there.
The SPCA has never contacted me to let me know what is going on with either charges or the animals.All my attempts to find answers to my questions have been ignored.I do plan to contact the media if I hear nothing by the first of December regarding my requests for information.Perhaps with the media involved I'll finally get the answers to my questions.I use to be a big supporter of the SPCA but no longer.What I've been reading online about the search and seizures they do seems to have little to do with concern for the animals.Even with my own animals I had this impressions.The male officer wanted me to give him my goats and rabbits.He had people who would give them homes and the rabbits he wanted to turn loose to run wild.Sherry

They went into your house....when you werent home...??? Are you kidding me? Thats not even close to being legal!

Niffer's right Sherry..you HAVE to take legal action. they had no right whatsoever to enter your home,especially when you weren't even there!
Please,take action against this and to retreive your lost pets. I find this completely discusting and horrifying.I also don't care much for the spca which I at one time had a great deal of espect for. As I see it in your case,they weren't in it for the wellness of the animlas at all.

You need to file a police report immediately, this is nothing but theft.

I have sought legal action but here in Canada the SPCA has very broad powers and can enter just about anywhere.The officer involved in my case had a justice of the peace issue a warrant.I figured that he told the JP that the animals were abandoned or other such nonsense.I still have heard nothing even though I asked to be contacted and they recieved a registered letter from me on the 22 of November.
I have tried to locate a lawyer to take on the case but most want outrageous amounts for the retainer,something I currently don't have.Legal aid does'nt handle this sort of case so that is'nt an option either.
I was hoping to have at least my two dogs home by now.At first I could'nt understand why the dogs were taken.I know feel it was to hit me where it would hurt the hardest as the male officer knows how much my female border means to me.
I have had her since she was eight weeks old and when she was 17 months old she saved my life.There is nothing that anyone could do to me that would hurt me more then having her taken away from me.That is the reason I believe he took her and Schooner but it is also nothing I can prove.If I ever get ownership of my two dogs back I will never leave either dog home alone during the day again.The fear of having this reoccur is just too great.Given how the SPCA seems to operate it's not something I would put past them.
A good friend of mine was going to testify if I had to go to court but changed her mind.She worries that the same thing would happen to her if she supported me in court.As she put it,it seems that they go after the people who have healthy animals when they do the search and seizures.I know first hand that they ask you to comply with something foolish.Once the order is complied with they come up with something else.I've been listening to the stories told to me by other people in the area I live in.One farmer gave up his farm when the stress became too much.He ran a dairy operation and was harrassed constantly by the SPCA.He warned me that they never go away and no matter how good things are with your operation they find fault.As he told me once you have them after you they never leave you alone again.I sure hope that this is'nt the case and that things work out for me.I'm still hoping someone out there can let me know how the SPCA taking you to court and the costs involved in their supposed costs for transport and care of the seized animals works.That is my main concern now as I need to know what sort of dollar figure I'm looking at.Sherry

The first thing you should do is to write letters to the editors of the local newspapers. Once the public reads about what has happened, two things will happen. 1. People will get angry. If you live in an area where lots of people have animals, people will realize that this could happen to them if the SPCA is allowed to get away with this. 2nd, Other people will write in if they have had their animals taken. Either way, the publicity is sure to help. If enough people get angry and write in, the SPCA will cave. They are dependant on people giving them money to survive.

I did contact the local newspaper last night.After ten days of not hearing anything,and I still have heard nothing as of right now,I decided that I have nothing to lose.The newspaper reporter I spoke with was very understanding and has promised to call me tonight to let me know what he could find out.I spoke with a friend this morning and was told then that the piece has appeared in the Chronicle Herald.Apparently she was called by someone and they read the piece to her.I have no idea what was written but hope to read the piece after I pick up a copy on my way home.
The publicity certainly won't hurt my chances of regaining my animals as I don't feel after all this time that they are even still alive.If they were then one would assume that I would have had a response to my request for information on what was or is going to taken place with regards to charges and the animals being returned to me.I heard nothing which makes me believe that all were most likely euthanised shortly after being seized by the SPCA.Perhaps others who went through what I have will contact either myself or the newspaper reporter and get the ball rolling to curtail the SPCA's ability to investigate animal care facilities.The one officer who was involved in my case was a mechanic prior to being an SPCA officer.I can't see how that would make him qualified to investigate a case of animal cruelty.Sherry