Perhaps the words are intimidating.

I think that planning a garden can be split into two departments, one is technical and the other is something like taste or aesthetics. In each of these departments there is a need for knowledge, we need to know something about the climate, what grows and what doesn't, for instance. Whether we want and can afford for someone else to do it for us or we do it ourselves we need to know what we like and how to achieve it. It would be a mistake to go with a design lifted from the first book we pick up without thinking about it.

It might not be a mistake to go with the first design that appeals to you if you use it as a starting point and let it evolve. I'm a strong proponent of learning by doing, perhaps because that's the way I learn/work best. If I see something I like and think that I can make, my next step is to try it out and, invariably it changes as I work with it and see what parts I like and don't like. As I commented on Virtuosity's thread, my starting point in gardening is very different than where I find myself now and where I'm likely heading in the future. Certainly when I started I was more interested in learning about the plants but that soon broadened out into exploring other things such as history - of plant discoveries, of garden styles, of specific gardens, of famous gardeners, garden writers etc.

I don't think there's a minimum knowledge required, just a basic level of interest in growing things. If you also have a degree of curiosity and give that free rein, it will lead you to explore lots of things if you let it. But I think you need some initial success in getting something -anything - to grow to spur you on to greater things :- )

Contemplate or just do it, plan or pure action.

I've done both. Because my career dominated my life, I contemplated my own property for ten years before starting construction. To achieve the desired function within a limited budget, it was time well spent.

On the other hand, there is something very exciting about fast tracking a project with no plan whatsoever. The kind of thing where you call a contractor and tell him to send a dresser dozer, a backhoe, and a 12 yard dump truck, along with a half dozen guys for labor, equipped with shovels, rakes, and wheelbarrows. Tell him to call for a large tree spade for the afternoon. Stone might be nice to try; order two loads of 20 to 40 inch boulders. While you are waiting for the guys to show, you walk the site to get an idea of what you will do.

It would seem that you need to be aware of what you are planning in order to plan it.

The more that you are aware of, the more that you can incorporate. This applies to both elements (things, objects, features) and principles (rhythm, proportion, etc).

The more you know of something, the better you can incorporate it.

For example, you won't include a bog garden (element) in a design if you have never heard of a bog garden. Similarly, if you aren't particularly attuned to noticing the effects of scale and proportion (principles), you are less likely to include their effects in the design process.

Additionally, if all you know about bog gardens are that they exist, you might end up designing them poorly (ex: locating them at a high point on the site). If you know more about their nature, their functioning, and technical and aesthetic aspects, you can make more informed decisions that will result in a better-located and better-designed bog garden. The same goes for principles as for elements: if you know the spatial effects of width-to-height ratios, you can design passageways that are comfortable and aren't oppressive or gatherings areas that are intimate.

The point really is, there really is no minimum required knowledge to design a garden. However, the success of the design would depend much more on pure luck and less on the actual design. With experiential learning, you are made aware of aspects you weren't aware of during the design process and can learn and adjust accordingly. However, when you are being counted on to produce a design that will work with minimal changes, the more you know, the less that you leave to luck.

- Audric

No matter how much I think I know about plants and garden design (after reading and studying for years), the favourite bits of my garden are those that I've had a chance to think about, sometimes for several years, and then tweak or completely re-do. There's nothing more satisfying than looking at and gardening the same bed month after month, year after year, and suddenly realizing what just HAS to be done to make it better.

I had a feeling that IB's "study and contemplation" might draw a blank but it was worth a try although I am disappointed that the man himself didn't chip in. Thanks to those who tried to humour me. pls (is that perry ?) Kubotu (?) worked that way and it requires a great deal of confidence and somehow you have to sell it to the client if you are doing this for a living so they need to have confidence in you. I believe David works the intuitive way Michelle seems to dot i's and cross t's.

audric says "the more you know, the less that you leave to luck" or chance and he is right.

And here we drift off into the speculation that some people intuitively know where to place the load of rocks just dumped and others need a map. Is this intuition innate or does it come from study and contemplation?

inkognito, keep in mind that landscapes are not central to my career. I doubt that new clients had any confidence in me whatsoever. Mostly they hired me because I was their last chance, sort of a salvage expert. Over the years some learned that it worked better to involve me on the front end. It's cheaper to dodge trouble than it is to get out of trouble.

But then perhaps IB was thinking of "study and contemplation" as the process of identifying those things that should come into play as a design progresses; a contemplation of the design process and its elements.

Is this the design version of "nature vs. nurture"? Personally, I don't think that some people "naturally" are better at designing than others. My thoughts on "intuition" are that it is the result of study and contemplation. Study and contemplation don't have to be conscientious endeavors where you sit yourself down with a mighty tome and try to absorb the lessons of designers past. The greatest contemplation comes from everyday value judgments you subconsciously[?] make about everything that you come across, and it is these that inform "intuitive" decisions. Or so I would think. Those who are more attentive to their surroundings would be more likely to have a greater intuition when creating or modifying them.

- Audric

Okay, Ink, you have caused me to remember my worst landscaping nightmare by writing..."that some people intuitively know where to place the load of rocks just dumped off and others need a map".

Let me quickly set the scene. A large, newly constructed municipal building. That town's Dept. of Public works was to install my landscape plan. Close by land was being cleared for a major state highway and the contractor said I could have some of the massive granite boulders being unearthed every day. I met with the town's DPW supervisor one morning and we made arrangements to meet at the highway site so I could select the stones I wanted for the job. That afternoon the phone rang. It was the DPW supervisor. " I have your rocks. We just picked them up. The crew is ready to place them right now." Huh! But, but, I thought I would have a chance to pick and choose! Grabbed the car keys and raced to the municipal building.

My heart sank as I drove up to be greeted by three long flat bed trailers piled with large boulders, four backhoes and 3 bulldozers plus a group of workers who did not look very enthusiastic about this job. Plus massive rocks I had never seen before!

The crew boss walked toward me looking at his watch. "It's ten minutes of three," he said gruffly. "This crew quits at 4 P.M. sharp and I need this equipment on another job tomorrow morning."

Well, Ink, we did the job in one hour and ten minutes including tweaking and adjusting rocks to present the best sides. Experience and intuition were my best friends that day. It meant making some changes in my final plan but when all was done the press wrote some kind words about the landscaping.

This was 30 years ago. I was in the area last year and stopped to see how things looked. A large addition had been added to the original building and that landscaper had removed some of the original rocks and used them in his plan so all flowed together. I was pleased that he had worked with my original concept. The plantings were mature and doing just what I had envisioned. But, the memory of that afternoon still haunts me.

You did use knowledge placing those rocks that theoretically anyone could also acquire, it's based on things like the shapes of the rocks and how sides with specific characteristics are best placed facing out and so on. It's not an abstraction at all. Little, if any intuition required - once the mechanics of it are understood.

The common problem (for those who care) is people working in horticultural operations who haven't learned and embraced such concepts. Except for when the casual stacking of wall rocks might produce a collapse later many others don't care how naturalistic or otherwise pleasing the result looks. In other instances "ugly" effects are deliberately produced, as when the builder of the landscape feature thinks the way they did it looks good. I also suspect in the case of dry stone walls specifically the unnatural packing together of the rocks at all angles is done deliberately to produce structural soundness. It seems trying to direct an operator to instead place the boulders so that they were oriented naturalistically, as in a wall used in an alpine garden might result in being told that was an impossible request. I don't know, I haven't tried it. I've only been in charge of building walls by hand using small stones.

Perhaps the link below is a good example of contemplation.

IronBelly

Here is a link that might be useful: Contemplation

I couldn't decide which came first IB. Is it the garden or the name of the garden?

If you make a garden and then decide what to call it, even after much thought or contemplation, is this design?

Should the contemplation come before you head off to the nursery?

If indeed the planting and layout of your yard/landscape is spontaneous there may be some value in trying to work out what it all means in retrospect but it could also be naval gazing.

You could come up with a name that would be virtually meaningless, flower garden, for instance. If study and contemplation are to be an ingredient of design as you suggested earlier the aim must be higher surely.

That first picture in Helen's Haven garden shows a small rock wall made with 'Girly' rocks. That's where I'd have a load of large rocks dumped for a rock outcropping, on a point protruding out in the lawn. I would never put rocks in a 'bay'.
Intuition or knowledge? I'd say with knowledge, comes intuition.

The thrust of my posted link was merely to show that some people really do put in a lot of thought about their gardening efforts. It is clearly the antithesis of the all too frequent postings delineating absence of forethought and unwillingness to pursue that analytical avenue in the present and/or future.

To be sure, the link also illustrates from a design perspective  an extended thought process lacking cohesiveness. Again, from a design perspective, the actual application of her mental process displays the results of "Majoring in the Minor". Perhaps a bit more study, preceding her contemplations, would have produced better results of the kind that BoTann clearly points out.

Personally, I have no intentions to either name my landscape and/or create a mission statement. Almost every organization and many large businesses have mission statements. Virtually none of them could tell you what it is without looking it up. It is impossible to be guided by something you canÂt even remember. Why bother? Again, an example of "Majoring in the Minor".

Contemplation without study is almost as bad as study without contemplation. Putting those cerebral efforts into action further refines and removes the dross from both.

In defense of the Helen Yoest blog posting, she does allude to important design questions:
 What am I trying to accomplish?
 Why should I do that here?
 Is this the best way to accomplish my goal?
 How does this all fit together?
 Etc.

All of these questions deserve study and contemplation to achieve the best end result.

IronBelly

Ink, thanks for bringing this subject up. Some of the comments here really struck a chord with me.

pls8xx mentioned he did nothing with his property for 10 years, and I can definitely relate to that. Mine sat almost untouched for 12 years. Sure, I had the ubiquitous foundation plantings and some petunias here and there, but nothing anyone could call a garden.

Early on I had the misconception that it would be best to leave the forrest alone and let my little cottage stay nestled in its largely natural setting. But years of rampant growth from said forrest began to overwhelm everything - literally. It doesn't take long for Mother Nature to lay claim on every inch of ground and every glint of sunlight; and you soon have something akin to Fangorn Forrest to contend with. Only after I overcame my phobia of cutting trees did the real potential of my property begin to dawn on me - that's when the contemplation actually started. Slowly, I began to envision areas of color, trees that should be thinned or removed, new vistas and sklines, and the potential for beauty that was hiding in my unkempt woods.

So, the chain saw came out, and the trees came down! Not all, of course. Not by a long shot! I was very deliberate about it, and in fact took years to decide in some cases. But I have never looked back. Fangorn is gone, and now I have light and air and beautiful park-like spaces that complement the cottage and allow for nearly limitless gardening expressions. The inspiration continues to wash over me with each changing season, and I'm almost impatient to start the next project. For me, the process is a continuous one of contemplating, planning (or sometimes not planning!), experimenting, creating - then contemplating the result and perhaps changing my mind completely. For me, its the constant evolution of things that creates the excitement, and the contemplation - both before and after - that offer the satisfaction.

Regards,

Neal

One of the shortfalls of contemplation is placing too much importance on it. Extensive thinking (contemplation) about any given subject without other input almost always produces poor results in and of itself.

We can all relate that you wont be driving your car very far when the fuel gauge needle is on empty. The same principle applies to landscape design. It is difficult to get very far contemplating when your knowledge base (study) is nonexistent. Thankfully, this deficiency is relatively easy (at least in part) to address; especially with modern-day Internet access.

Absence of both study and contemplation is quite easy to spot in both queries and responses. Everyone is always looking for "ideas" when they would be better served to receive an explanation of concepts; which would then assist a poster to contemplate and develop their own "idea". Suggested reference sources would prove generally more beneficial than "ideas" or personal opinions thrown at posters. "Ideas" out of context are far the most part worthless or worse lead one astray.

The glaring omission from these offerings is the "why". Why should this choice, as opposed to another, be made in this particular case. Although many have a subconscious aversion to study lets just call it information gathering it has proven time and time again to produce the best results; particularly when coupled with contemplation and action.

IronBelly

I think I might have taken the 'study' part too far...:-) Tomorrow is the official start of the Landscape Design I distance education course from the university of Guelph. All the materials for the course came last week so I've been reading it and trying out the first exercise. Yikes! I'm a total spaz....! My handwriting, at the best of times, is barely legible even for me - trying to do that neat printing is excruciating! It's also very hard to get an image in my mind of what the property looks like from only a verbal description and/or a black and white drawing. The genius loci has went AWOL and I'm used to having active discussion with that character. I'm sure it'll all get easier as I go along but I suddenly have a different perspective on what it takes to do what the pros among you do - especially those who do hand drawings! I think I may have preferred blissful ignorance...:-)

Woody if it was easy everyone would be able to do it. Just imagine the level of knowledge if you didn't need to make any effort to understand it.

I reviewed this course a few years back and I seem to remember the first part being history rather than drafting, perhaps it has changed.

What is the the 'genius loci'? Is it an objective phenomenon or is personal interpretation involved? In other words: first would everyone sense it and secondly would everyone sense it in the same way? I am asking this because I think this is an ideal opportunity to think about the efficacy of study and contemplation.

In this sense I don't mean reading a book and thinking about it but rather reading the space (garden/landscape) and being sensitive to the effect it has on you or the feelings that arise. The next step is to think about how to incorporate these findings into a design. You then need to study the how of the why, everything else is plain sailing.

You will notice that faced with the same space there will be some similarities in response from people but everyone will also bring with them a whole sack of memories and cultural differences too.

An interesting topic to which I could add little, except for the fact that Sam, er Joe the noted if not notable (unlicensed) Plumber, talkshow host, country western singer, political pundit, author, tax evader and now war correspondent is not slated to become a landscape architect until next month. Alas! Little hope of his, no doubt, insightful rationale on the relative merits of study vs. contemplation by that particular renaissance man just yet.

Ink - there are two parts of the course running in parallel - there is the more academic stuff (history, styles etc. and general principles) presented as Powerpoint slides and a second stream of the drafting/rendering stuff along with it. The first week drafting is mostly watching a couple of videos and drawing a few trees :-); the second week includes a practice exercise to get you familiar with the drafting tools - you draw a basic plan to very specific directions to get the hang of doing it all. (I've read all the materials and watched the videaos so I dived in a bit ahead of schedule to play with the drafting...) The practice exercises I gather are not submitted but the first drafting assignment is due at the end of week 4. So the drafting begins right away.

As for the genius loci - I'd say that it is fundamentally objective in that everyone would see the same thing when they looked at a place - but how each person responds to what they see is going to be very subjective, reflecting their personal history, biases and culture. I think the tricky part - the contemplation part perhaps - is separating out what part of your response to something is to the objective reality and what part is the subjective/emotional response. I think you have to deal with both parts when you decide what to do with the space, even if you deliberately choose to ignore or downplay one or the other. (I think we're saying the same thing here...?)

A group of Internet garden buddies that I'm a part of use the terms SALATing and WALATing (Standing Around Looking At Things ; Walking Around....) When gardeners do that, I think what we're doing is consulting the genius loci and 'listening' for hints on what the garden/space wants to be. Obviously there's a lot of subconscious - and often conscious - planning going on when SALATing or WALATing, but it does feel like something in the garden is talking to you! A good part of the changes I've made to the garden over the years have happened because the space seems to demand something in particular. Too bad the genius loci sometimes is a bit vague and it didn't lay it all out at once instead of piecemeal over the past 8 years! On the other hand, there's a limit to what I can physically do each year so perhaps piecemeal is the practical alternative :-)

Ink - are you there....? The last assignment for the U of G course was due/handed in this week. As it turned out, most of the work in the course was about the drafting - obviously design was a part of that but, in terms of time and effort required, the physical drafting was what dominated. I was disappointed in that but perhaps there is no other way to run the course over the Internet and there's no in-person contact with the teacher (who was actually on Vancouver Island...) I was also the only person taking the course for personal interest/'fun' so people like me weren't really who the course was targeted towards. I was hoping a greater portion of the course content would be more conceptual stuff. So, it was interesting and I enjoyed it but I was disappointed too. Taking the course certainly confirmed for me that I'd never wannt to do all that for a living! I'm sure you get faster and better at the drafting with time and experience but yikes! It takes forever! Much easier to do it all in your head :-)

Present, woody.

Some may not agree but a drafted plan is not the design but a visual representation of the design. When drawn up accurately this plan allows you to draw off quantities and show a client what the design is. If you are doing the work yourself you may not need this information although it would be difficult to proceed if you didn't take measurements or have some advance notion of placement.

It sounds to me like the course was meant for people who have done the "conceptual stuff" as you call it and need to make the next step. In the end remember that it is a garden you are making so for you the practical application may be more important than the drafting. Are you able to work with someone this summer in some gardening capacity so that study and contemplation has a practical component?

Some of the most wooden installations I have seen were drawn by people with no idea what the plants in the design were or how the shapes in there drawing would look like on the ground installed by people just doing their job. Did you know that when you draw a circle on your vellum the only way you will see this as a circle is from directly above it, from everywhere else it will look like an ellipse. Now if you want to create a space that has a centre to be encircled (a conceptual word) by a hedge, pergola, roses it is the hedge that will create the impression of a circle. But you have to experience it.

Does this make sense to you?

Yes, that makes sense to me. I don't think though that the other students had done 'the conceptual stuuf' before - certainly not in the program that the course I took was a part of. There isn't any other course listed that would have covered that. The other students seemed to be a mix of relatively young people who, to me, didn't seem to have a whole lot of plant experience; some in their late 20s/early 30s from the sound of it who were working - often in their own business - in garden-related, garden-design fields and wanting to learn how to do things 'correctly'; and a few older ones, mostly taking it for a variety of business related reasons. I was surprised that one student was the owner of a large, well-known speciality nursery. He said he was taking it because sometimes customers asked him to design gardens for them using his plants but he didn't feel comfortable doing that without some training. Another student owns a winery - in NFLD! and grows exotic plants there too. She wanted, I think, to expand the winery garden in a more organized fashion. So it was an interesting mix of students, but many of them seemed to be uncomfortable with the forum-style class participation aspect - so the potential for interesting discussions just never worked out. That was one of the biggest disappointments for me.

The practical component of study and contemplation is always going to have to happen in my own garden, as it has been for the past 10 years. A slower process perhaps but enjoyable none the less. Because of the disabilities I have, the Internet classroom was an idea format for me; it's just too bad that it didn't quite match my expectations/hopes. I do intend to use some of the drafting stuff shortly to play around a bit with the changes to my front garden that I'm planning to start at the end of April/early May. I sort of got carried away with the elevation process - I did not like - and refused to do :-) the flat depthless elevation sketches that the course called for because I find that they do not convey the information I look for. So I ended up exploring the isometric elevations (they were not a part of the course itself but were in the readings and Choong - the teacher - provided additional guidance). I found that they offer a really astonishing view that is very useful in assessing how things would look like in a 3-D reality. The standard rotated one is a bit of a PITA to do but, for a straight-on elevation of a piece of the garden, I found that an unrotated isometric type elevation was very helpful. So that's probably what I'll do when I play around with the planned changes for my garden.

I'm sure I drove Choong (the teacher) crazy at times! :-) I won't know how I did in the course for another week or two but, so far, my assignment marks were in mid-80s. So, while I'm no genius, I appear not to be totally hopeless either :-)

Do you know of any other program offered over the Internet that might contain more of the conceptual stuff I was looking for?

I have linked to one such programme but you may have to go your own way if you have the discipline. I have a long list of online resources and books but you really need, if not a mentor then some feed back on your understanding, I used to think that this forum would be a good place for that but it seems to have gone pear shaped lately. I am not looking for something else to do but if I can help let me know.

Woody,

I truly empathize with your frustrations. Unfortunately, a large part of academia is its own version of The Wizard of Oz. When you finally get up close enough to "pull back the curtain" you are disappointed with shallow pretentiousness of "the Wizard". Much like the lion, scare crow or tin man; you eventually come to realize that achievement is (and was all along) entirely up to you.

I truly love education, contemplation and study. Sadly, the return on investment with much of the offerings of academia is woefully inefficient and serves as little more than a time consuming impediment to finally acquire the prized and requisite sheep skin. However, when one stumbles into a class that actually delivers upon the anticipated "promise", it is a delight, in deed!

IronBelly

I did look at the English Garden school stuff - and wondered about the RHS courses too - but I suspect I might have the same sort of experience there - or almost anywhere - at a higher cost (not that the U of G course was cheap!) I think the real issue is a course designed (so to speak :-) for someone who intends to practise for hire is going to put more emphasis than I need on the graphics stuff. Whereas what I want to explore is the 'conceptual stuff' as, ultimately, it relates to my particular piece of paradise. I think books etc. may be the way to go for me. I'm already a voracious reader of all things garden and have learned a lot that way. In the past 4-5 years have largely moved away from reading books about growing plants to books about design, garden history, and garden 'biography' (i.e. the making of specific gardens or memoirs and biographies of people who have been influential in the development of gardens and gardening.)

There was no assigned text as such for the course but one book was referred to fairly often in the module materials, so I got that one. It was Landscape Design, A Practical Approach by Leroy G. Hannebaum. I thought it was a very good book - very clear and easy to follow. It was a picture in there of an isometric drawing of a garden plan that inspired the 'I want to know how to do that!' moment for me. I like the Hannebaum book much better than the Booth and Hiss book I bought a couple of years ago after seeing it recommended here a few times.

I doubt I'll ever use the full isometric thing on my garden but I do expect to use elements of the approach when I 'play' with my plans on paper, so it was something I'm glad I tried. Basically I followed the brief instructions the Hannebaum book provided, with the aid of a couple of rough sketches from the teacher. In case you're wondering what mess I might have produced :-), this is it:
{{gwi:54756}}

Not great perhaps but quite fun to have produced. (I never did get the hang of that neat printing so don't look to closely at the labelling!)

I would be interested in a recommended reading list from a few of you folk. And I might venture to post a picture of my spring plans - when I get around to producing it! If I do that, please keep in mind that I might argue/disagree with any comments you have but that's because the way I absorb and integrate information is to debate about it - it helps me clarify why I don't like something or what it is that I don't understand. The last time I got into an argument with you guys about my garden, I didn't know you and was in a different psychological place with respect to my garden - and my gardening knowledge. I would hope that, if I post something about my garden for comment again, we can deal with argument back and forth without assuming dire intent on either side :-) OK?

I think i just found the course I should have taken at U of G...! It was listed in the Horticulturist program and specifically says it doesn't include the graphics stuff. Perhaps I need to investigate that one.....

Woody, I took that course from U of g a few years ago and had the same feelings about it. I live in a very rural area and the opportunities for education in this area are limited so distance learning was really the only option not involving two + hour drives. The format of the discussions and the diversity of the people taking the class is an obstacle to meaningful and substantive interaction. It was like going to a steakhouse and being served a vegetarian meal - the meat was missing. A good portion of those courses are reliant on who is in them and then the discussions that are generated. I took another course later where the instructor tried breaking us in smaller groups to "discuss" the material, but in my group the postings were consistently just a regurgitation of that weeks material, I guess thinking that fulfilled the obligation to the course. Since there wasn't much "meat" to the lessons I wish the discussions could have taken it one step further, but it wasnt going to happen in either discussion format.
And as Ironbelly points out, there is the pull back the curtain effect. I had a different instructor than you, but one of the examples he gave us of landscape design I actually thought was a "what not to do", but it turned out to be an example of "good" design! this forum would have shredded it! JK everyone ;)
Glad you brought this tread back up - I missed it originally and have enjoyed reading the discussion - great topic.

Wow. As a Landscape Architecture graduate, this is one of the best threads that I have encountered.
We have to have the DESIRE to do what we do. We have to TRY again and again to accomplish it, and fail as we go to LEARN. As we learn and educate ourselves, we advance and become better in the profession.
bonsai audge said this best: "It would seem that you need to be aware of what you are planning in order to plan it. The more that you are aware of, the more that you can incorporate. This applies to both elements (things, objects, features) and principles (rhythm, proportion, etc)."
bogardt basically summarized this thread by stating "No matter how much I think I know about plants and garden design (after reading and studying for years), the favourite bits of my garden are those that I've had a chance to think about, sometimes for several years, and then tweak or completely re-do. There's nothing more satisfying than looking at and gardening the same bed month after month, year after year, and suddenly realizing what just HAS to be done to make it better."
When we contemplate genus loci - can we relate this to feng shui?
Contemplation is totally lost in an amazing amount of today's landscape design. Woodyoak, thanks, thanks so much for this thread. It makes us THINK. I know that those that really study this thread and truly care about landscape design will be better for it.
Hortster

My sincere apologies, inkognito, it was your thread. Woodyoak, you are a great contributor! Oops! Got lost in the many entries.
Hortster

In defense of Mr Choong and the like, can you imagine the difficulty imposed by the medium, and then trying to pitch at a really broad level. I know this is one of Ironbelly's hobby horses but can we agree to assume that it was with the best intentions that the course and its instructor disappointed woody?

I will go along with Ironbelly's remarks about achievement though, at the gym I see people attach themselves to a machine fully expecting results far beyond the effort expended.

The thing that strikes me about the comments of both woody and drtgyrl is the feedback and interaction between students. On this forum we have real people with real experience virtually on tap and it is a resource that is practically unused.

It was Ms Choong... :-) It took a while to figure that out though - unfamiliar names have no obvious gender....

Believe me, compared to most of the discussion on the course forum, this forum is a model of use!

I agree though that the course was set up with the best of intentions - and met the needs of a good portion of the students is my guess.

I wasn't disappointed in Choong. She was quite helpful, although I undoubtedly exasperated her at times since I wouldn't stick to the script :-) We seemed to have somewhat similar taste when it came to practical garden stuff. She showed some pictures of her garden and we were at least in the same ballpark in style and interests. She said if I e-mailed her my drawings of my planned changes when I produce them, that she would provide comments. So I have no complaints about the teacher. I'm sure it's not easy to teach that way and I got the sense that she was also disappointed in the interaction - or lack thereof - in the discussion forums. From drtygrl's comments, I'd guess that getting that participation element working is a problem all the instructors deal with.

I did put a lot of effort into the course and did get something out of it - just not as much as I hoped I would and, what I did get out of it, was not in an area
I was expecting. I don't regret taking the course; it just still leaves me searching for what I thought I would have 'studied and contemplated' this winter....

Maybe study and contemplation comes down to "you don't know what you don't know." We are all limited by out knowledge and background, but we don't realize what our limits are until we expand our horizons to enable ourselves to see the boundaries of our thinking.
I wonder if what hortster sees as a loss of contemplation in some landscape design is more a result of a very immediate, instant gratification society that does not know what contemplation really means. When you can twitter your every thought to your friends instantaneously, how much do you actually have to think about what you say and do.