I do not think that fireants will survive the cold in Canada.

I have decided that all ants are bad. They are probably pollinators in the instance mentioned above, but I have had them hollow out around plants roots and kill the plant. They did not eat on the roots, just deprived of them from picking up moisture and nutrients. Seven dust is fairly safe I think and can be effective on ants. You could try cinnamon, coffee grounds, dry molasses, keeping the ground real damp, or a few other home remedies first if you wish to avoid chemicals.

I do not know if you have them damned Pill bugs aka rollie pollies or sow bugs up there, but I can not hardly raise any strawberries in my wife's big planter box for the things.
Don't believe that crap about them only eating decaying plant matter, they will crawl across it to climb up a stem and eat a hole in a strawberry, ripe or green.
Bill P.

Oh yeah, we have rollie pollies. They are more in the spinach than the strawberries for me. I have raised beds in separated sections. I don't know what it is about the spinach but they seem to like living there. I suppose it might be because my spinach is close together, maybe it provides a lot of shade or cover for them.

So spreading coffee grounds are good for keeping away ants? I'll have to give that a try. Usually coffee grounds go into the compost but I'll try tossing them around the strawberries.

Thanks!

Not to get off the OP's topic of ants, but since the rollie polies were mentioned, what if any solution does one have when it comes to controlling them? I have them in my garden beds this year....can't decide if they are a bother or not ....though I blame them on my brassica sprouts disappearing completely overnight last Winter, even when row cover was used....hmpf!

As for ants, other than the aphid farming on my citrus, I don't seem to have many problems caused by them (but then I am not growing strawberries this year). I will have to keep a close eye on my okra plants though....

John, I think that they are hard to control, being a crustacian with the shell as their skeleton. They are probably more able to resist most measures unless they are pretty toxic. There are some organic insecticides like the Pyretheums that could possibly work on them. I have used a little bit of seven dust sparingly, but am reluctant to cover the whole strawberry patch so it leaves that out.

The ants will not usually bother your okra too much, just farm their aphids. I have had them occasionally bore a hole in a pod of okra near the stem causing the pod to become deformed and curl over.

I found last year, or the year before, that some dishwash liquid mixed with water in a hand held spray bottle will turn the aphids into mush and discourage the ants. Be careful to keep it relatively mild and do not spray in the heat of the day, just early or late. I never had it burn any plants at all, but read where some said that they burned their plants with it.
Bill P.

OK, I have tried the coffee grounds. It didn't work. They ants not only crawled right through it, but I think I saw a couple carrying the grounds away.

I tried keeping the soil wet in hopes that they would move away. No dice. In fact, I now have a layer of thin green moss across the bed which is beginning to worry me, and I still have the ants. I will be drying the beds out now.

Gonefishin, is Sevin dust safe for use around strawberries? They are already green berries as well as flowers, and the ants seem to have nests right in the strawberry bed. There are even more ants than before and they are crawling all over the leaves and berries. These little buggers are keeping a closer eye on the progress of my berries than I am.

I had what I perceived was a higher than normal amount of ants in one of my garden beds. I am talking a swarm of them every time I watered.....I bought some of those ant trap thingies (sorry I can't be more specific)....the ones in those black plastic containers that they sell at the big box stores.....I was pleasantly surprised at how quick the ants seemed to disappear.....I realize that this is just an anecdote, but you might consider laying a few of those ant bait traps around. They work on the theory that the ants haul the poison back to the queen and wherever else and that seems to kill them off....I think they sell them in 8 or 12 per a box or something...... =8^P

Might be worth a shot..

As for those dangum' rollie pollies, well they seem to want to feast on ANY new sprouts that I direct sow in my garden....I am fast becoming an expert at sowing seeds in my window box and then transplanting them outside.....the rollie pollies seem to ignore my transplants once they are beyond a particular size......

I recently sowed some carrot seeds in one of my bedsÂ..I decided to beat them with attritionÂ.hoping that enough seedlings survive beyond what they can eat before the carrots reach a certain sizeÂÂ..grrrrr! =8^(

It probably depends on who you ask, or which report you chose to believe, hamiltongardner. Personally, I just almost will not use any thing along the line, and if I do, it is sparingly. Some reports are that it is one of the safest, and the container that it comes in says safe for fruits and vegetables etc. Some people abhor the thought of using anything like that.

As an example, on the Tomato forum, some noted experts frequently recommend daconil for trying to prevent fungal diseases and problems. Just recently, someone was posting that it was totally horrible and they would never consider using it. Who knows what to believe anymore, and what do you chose to risk.

Thankfully, my insect and disease problems have decreased dramatically since I have been building my soil by amending heavily over the years. Last year about the only thing that I used was some dishwash liquid mixed with water in a hand held spray bottle for insects, and nothing for diseases of any kind. I never have liked sparrows, but became convinced last year that a swarm of them that roosts and nests in a climbing vine along one garden fence is helping to keep my garden pretty bug free. Every time I go out there, a flock of them fly up. I have never found any damage that they cause and have approached quietly and watched them working all thru the tomato vines and other plants. I became convinced that they were hunting bugs. I had planned to cut the vine way back or down, but have not done so because of that.

Try the ant baits next and see if that eliminates them. If their nest is outside the immediate area and you can find it and track them back out of the area to a place safe to treat, that might work. I have scattered some ant poison out side the garden and that seems to help too. It is the kind that claims the workers take in to feed to the queen. While you do not have fire ants up there, one unique thing about fire ants is that they can have multiple queens, which can be a problem.

At one point, I had success with dry molasses mixed with water, thought that it might stick their legs and antenna down or something since it is not toxic. Someone posted that they hate sweets (I thought that they liked them) but that only worked the first year. The next year, it did not seem to bother them. Perhaps they adapt quickly. Other people have posted great success with coffee grounds, cinnamon, and other things, but that seems to vary from area to area. Perhaps you will have some hyper, caffienated ants to deal with after they brew up a few pots and get charged up. ":^)
Good luck and keep us posted.
Bill P.

Hyper, caffeinated ants. Heh. Seems like it.

The area outside our fence is loaded with anthills. Not the large mounds, but the little hills. In a square foot, there are a half dozen entrances. The ant nests are also right in my strawberry bed.

Soo...I guess I'll skip the sevin. Don't want to take any chances. I will try the ant traps next, on yours and john's advice. I know they work great inside the house so if I put a couple along the edge of the strawberry bed it may help.

Of all the things in my garden, I really want the strawberries. I had raspberry bushes that my son loved at our last house, but we had to move and I can't plant them here, so he is really looking forward to these strawberries. I mean, my spinach is doing great but it just doesn't hold the same appeal for him as strawberries, you know? :D

There is a natural insect control called Orange Guard that is reputed to work against rollie pollies by suffocating them. It contains orange oil. I have no direct experience with it but I thought I would pass this along.

Also diatomaceous earth kills rollie pollies

Are your rolly pollies really that bad? They're dessicavores (eat dead/decaying matter), after all; any damage to plants should be unintentional.

Ants are mixed. They farm aphids and can occasionally do damage directly, but they also prey on other insects. Different species of ants are more beneficial or harmful than others.

Bull, you really do not have much experience with them except what you have read that someone else said, do you? I can tell you that when they call across dead and decaying matter and up strawberry stems to eat a hole in the bottom of both green and ripe stawberries that it was anything but unintentional.

And also, John who said that they eat all the new sprouts of anything that he direct sows probably does not feel that it is unintentional.

Many other people report too many similar incidences to warrant keeping on spreading that myth.

I can agree with you on the ants a little bit, but have trouble finding any that I think are harmless or beneficial. Fireants will definitely attack other insects, and baby livestock, game, people and on and on. They say that if you have a good population of fire ants in yor yard, you will not have ticks, chiggars or fleas, they eat them. I guess that by some stretch, you could call that beneficial, but it is one helluva trade off, if you ask me. You might not also have any garden snakes, lizzards, toads or other truely beneficials in your yard and garden.
Bill P.

First off, let's stay polite, shall we?

Rolly Pollies (more appropriately, woodlice) *are* dessicavores. They are very poor at digesting living matter. If they're eating it, they're either starving (which means that your garden is completely lacking in decaying matter -- very doubtful) or they're feeding on fungal hyphae (which means that the plant is infected). Just like moles often get blamed for eating garden vegetables (they don't; they're pure carnivores that wreck your garden in their endless hunt for grubs and earthworms), people see damage, they see woodlice, and they assume that woodlice did the damage. Woodlice will go to areas that are already damaged in order to eat the decaying matter. If a borer eats part of a squash, there's often necrosis around the hole, and they'll gladly eat the dead tissue.

If you think scientists are big enough idiots that they can't tell what woodlice eat, I don't know what to tell you. Search for cases of farmers fighting off "woodlice infestations". You'll struggle to find them. The only times they generally ever interfere with plant development is in greenhouses (humid, often lacking decaying matter), and even then, significant damage is rare. All of the documentation on them says "dessicavore", and that's not random guesswork.

Dessicavores are *good* for gardens.

I like what the Garden Forum's Q&A says about woodlice:

"Woodlice usually don't do much damage to plants - although they are often given the blame for it."

Sort of like how goldenrod has long been maligned for causing hayfever just because it blooms at the same time as ragweed.

As for ants. Ants cannot digest cellulose:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ant+cellulose+digest&btnG=Search

In case you mistakenly point to, say, leafcutter ants, they only cut leaves to feed to a fungus that they eat (fungi don't contain cellulose -- their cell walls are made of chitin, like insect exoskeletons). Carpenter ants burrow into wood, but they don't eat it; they just make their homes out of it.

Diets of ants vary from species to species, but most are predominantly carnivores. Unfortunately, they also are into sugary or protein-rich foods with little to no cellulose. This includes many human foods, honeydew (aphids), and some types of sap.

Can't think of beneficial ants? You've clearly never been to Africa or Central/South America. I've been to Costa Rica before, and let me tell you, those army ants sure clean the place out. Even the various species of black ants in America, often thought of as pests, often do more good than harm. Example: peach growers have long tried to get rid of grey ants because they farm aphids. However, they are also major predators of the peach twig borer:

http://news.ucanr.org/newsstorymain.cfm?story=424

Here's what I have observed (typing in my most polite of manners ;)

I have rollie pollies and I see them handing around in my raised beds, probably munching on the decaying matter as was mentioned previously...in the past year, when I direct sow seeds, cover them with row cover, the seedlings would sprout and then completely disappear the next morning. No foot prints, no slime trails from slugs, no remaining evidence, just gone like they were clipped and hauled away. Being in denial, I assumed something was chomping them other than the rollie pollies, a mouse perhaps. I never see anything other than earthworms and rollie pollies typically in my soil. Nor do I see any signs that my row cover has been breached.

Last week or so I sowed some coriander seed. A week or so later I noted the first little sprouts. The very next day, I found all but one had disappeared and the very last one had a rollie pollie wrapped around it "cutworm style" and had begun chewing on my little cilantro sprout. None of the sprouts made it. I doubt fungus had anything to do with it.

I was in denial for a while but now am convinced they do like the small sprouts. I have also noticed that once the sprouts make it to a certain size, perhaps first true leaves, the rollie pollies have nothing to do with them. I guess the birds take over after that! :P

These are just my observations in my garden. I have taken to sprouting everything that I can indoors or away from these beds and then transplanting them.....not exactly what I want to do for some things like carrots and beets, though I know that is possible.

Yeah right, you say let's stay polite, O.K. after coming on here and basically calling me and others liars for posting what we know from our own personal observation. Then you attempt to bedazzle someone with crap that you have copied and pasted, or linked from what others have written.

Why in the world should I want to go to Africa ? I might be convinced to donate a little to your next boat passage to go there if that floats your boat, or perhaps Costa Rica (WOW). I do watch a lot of National Geographic on the Discovery Channel and find it entertaining but not a motivator to make me want to go there.

I do not recall saying that ants eat and digest cellulose, although Termites may possibly do so. A home owner who finds lots of major hidden damage from them probably does not care about their digestion, or indigestion as much as they do about the destruction that they caused. No, technically they are probably not an ant, although they resemble them, but they are of little beneficial use either. Perhaps with your vast knowledge and outlook, the huge mounds that they make in Africa provides food for the Ant eater and maybe refuge for some little rodents. So perhaps they should be forgiven for reducing an expensive home to junk.

Those little black ants used to just farm and tend their aphids on my okra and I had few problems with them. They would occasionally bore a hole in a pod of okra near the base and cause it to become deformed and curl over, but I could live with that. Then they changed, or another variety that I could not tell the difference in, moved in. They quickly proceeded to kill a beautiful little yellow miniature rose bush that I lovingly put into my handicapped wife's planter box that I built especially for her so that she could drive her electric scooter up beside it and at least get one hand dirty planting and tending. I never forgave them for that, and anything that you say on the subject will not matter to me. They then killed all my dill plants and some speciality pepper plants that I had planted my last seed on. No need to explain their diet preferences to me, they did not eat on the plants, they just hollowed out all around the roots so that they staved to death from not being able to take up any moisture or nutrients. They were just as dead regardless of whether the roots were eaten off or just deprived of moisture and nutrients.

At my age, I have seen and observed quite a bit. I have also read quite a bit, but learned long ago to take many things with a grain, or pound, (perhaps now I need to expand that to a barrel) of salt and not be so gullible as to consider every thing that I read my Bible.

I really do not feel further need to defend my own personal observations against ludicrous claims like saying that those pill bugs only eat decaying matter. H.S.!
Regards (my contribution to being polite, what kind of regards depends upon you.)

"Yeah right, you say let's stay polite, O.K. after coming on here and basically calling me and others liars"

Here's what you refer to as "calling me and others liars": "Are your rolly pollies really that bad? They're dessicavores (eat dead/decaying matter), after all; any damage to plants should be unintentional."

To this, you respond, "Bull, you really do not have much experience with them except what you have read that someone else said, do you?"

And you're saying I'm not being polite? Pot, meet kettle.

Then you attempt to bedazzle someone with crap that you have copied and pasted, or linked from what others have written.

Ah. Calling the scientific literature on woodlice "crap".

Why in the world should I want to go to Africa ? I might be convinced to donate a little to your next boat passage to go there if that floats your boat, or perhaps Costa Rica (WOW).

Could you lay off the sarcasm for just a minute here? I'm trying to have a civil conversation, and you keep degenerating into insults.

No, technically they are probably not an ant, although they resemble them

"Probably"? No probably about it. They're not even in the same order, let alone same family, let alone same genus. Their closest relatives are wood-eating cockroaches, while ants' closest relatives are bees. Even termites can't digest cellulose on their own; they rely on gut bacteria to do it for them (something that ants can't do).

but they are of little beneficial use either

Termites are probably the most important insects on the planet, being critical recyclers of wood, returning its nutrients to the soil dozens of times faster than would happen without them. They're also the base of the food chain in many places. The only reason we look down on them is that we like to build things out of the wood that they try to help break down.

they just hollowed out all around the roots so that they staved to death from not being able to take up any moisture or nutrients.

Yes, that certainly can happen. It's the same way moles kill plants. Ants are a mixed blessing.

I really do not feel further need to defend my own personal observations against ludicrous claims like saying that those pill bugs only eat decaying matter. H.S.!

And fungal hyphae, feces, and if they're literally starving (no decaying matter of any kind around), living matter -- however, this last case is relatively rare behavior (as is further evidenced by the lack of cases of farmers struggling to fight off woodlice). More often, woodlice are at the "scene of the crime" where other insects have already done the damage or plants are infected by fungi, and the woodlice are there to finish the job. Woodlice spend the vast majority of their lives doing a critical service to the garden: breaking down dead material.

Look, ignore science all you like. You're free to. You could believe that the world is flat, hay fever is caused by goldenrods, and the sun orbits around the earth because that's what your basic observations tell you, for all I care. I'm just pointing out to those who actually care what science has to say, what science has to say.

And I pointed out what I personally observed, as did John. I care about science, I just do not think that it is the end all, cure all and they do make mistakes, things evolve. There is plenty of organic matter in my garden and in my wife's planter box. If they only ate that, I would have no problem with them and they could feast around the clock. That is just not what happens, regardless of what you and science says.

According to this fact sheet from Ohio State Univ. (see link below), wood lice do indeed feed on young plants and their roots. They also thrive in cool, moist conditions and that is where I am seeing them.....usually under the shade of plants where the soil is moist from my soaker hoses.

Perhaps I need to cut back on my irrigation and let things dry out a bit.

What's interesting to me is that while I am sure there is no shortage of decaying matter in my garden bed (compost and mulch for instance), these pillbugs seem to really like the new sprouts....darn!

Interesting stuff!

Thanks John. Excellent job. Ohio S.U. is good enough for me and I think that their science department may be better than most since they have enough sense to observe actual happenings and not just go on previous written rhetoric, conforming to preconceived notions of what is supposed to be, because someone else said so. That kinda shoots holes in all that other "stuff" doesn't it?
Bill P.

John: That's a website designed for a simple read by gardeners, not scientific literature that has undergone peer review. Want scientific literature?

http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FBRE%2FBRE77_04%2FS1464793102005912a.pdf&code=e70bfd561784f97b3592b187924f0996

Start at the end of p.480 (#26 in the PDF), and read from there. As per the discussion of phenols and tannins, those are chemicals produced by plants as a defense against predation; they break down as plants decay. Phenols tend to be antiseptic, and are hence very problematic for an animal that relies on intestinal microflora for digestion. Hence, only starvation tends to induce them to choose these "poor" food sources. If this really is what's happening, and if your garden has abundant decaying material, I'd say that odds are good that it's either the wrong kinds of decaying material for your particular woodlice (another "poor food source"), or that you have such a boom population of woodlice that they're having trouble picking through the "good stuff". A boom would be aided by having very abundant moisture.

Note that this virtually rules out pillbugs as "burrowing into strawberries", because strawberries are positively loaded with phenols. They were almost certainly eating decaying matter or feces around a hole burrowed by something else; eating fresh strawberry would likely kill them.

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=32

Gonefishin: Your understanding of the scientific method seems deeply flawed. I recommend you first read up a summary of the scientific process (including peer review), and then begin reading papers so that you know what's out there and what studies have already been done.

I never said pillbugs ate fresh strawberries....only that I have observed first hand that they do indeed munch on seedlings in my garden bed. I do think that I have a boom on my hand though because I am seeing way more than I have ever seen before and that probably coincides with my watering methods.

And no, I didn't ask for scientific literature. The fact that the information from OSU is scaled down in summary form, doesn't necessarily invalidate the information written in it. I am sure the learned professional(s) who contributed to that "simple read" most likely based it on some kind of science. If not, then shame on them......

It is also not my intention to debate you on the topic, but rather, share my observations and experiences with other gardeners so that we can hopefully benefit, learn and even commiserate at times on our diverse gardening experiences.

Happy gardening to you. Here's hoping the woodlice in your garden are finding all of the broken down tannins and phenols they can possibly enjoy!

Publications written by a state university agricultural extension are good enough for me. They are trained entomologists with PhD in the subject area -- but not only that they are active in the farming community and know what is really happening in the field. Ohio State is right up there with the best of them.

Just can't admit it when you are wrong can you karenrei? I think that your people skills and motivations are deeply flawed, personally. I see noting positive about any further participation in this thread. Have fun.

This thread is like a pair of warm, fuzzy bunny slippers.

Clock

Now I have to worry about rollie pollies eating my strawberries too! I can't win, can I?

Karen, I don't want to get into the middle of this argument, but I started looking to see if they could damage the strawberries or not. I found multiple sources that I thought were reliable. For example, Texas Cooperative Extension says that strawberries and other fruit that touch the ground are especially suceptible.

If you hang around these forums long enough (and you know who you all are ;) It gets pretty easy to figure out who the real gardeners are....the ones who can speak from "real" experience, post real results based on their own observations, and are willing to share that vast knowledge and experience.....not only talk the talk, but walk the walk, in a manner of speaking.

They may simply be anecdotes and not "acceptable" from a purely scientific viewpoint, but carry way more weight with me than a link to some esoteric posting from a college archive.

(John, who happens to have an advanced degree, graduated with honors and is WISE enough to understand that my grandfather, who barely spoke English and didnt finish high school, could run circles around me when it comes to gardening knowledge and wisdom).

Off of my soap box now!

John,

No matter how many degrees you have on your wall, grandpa can still take you out to the woodshed and teach you a lesson you whippersnapper!

hg:

LOL! You got that right! No "book learnin'" necessary!

Thanks John and Hamiltongardner!
Bill P.

For example, Texas Cooperative Extension says that strawberries and other fruit that touch the ground are especially suceptible.

Of course. Strawberries that touch the ground tend to get infected with fungi, which causes the breakdown of the fruit, leading to opportunists like woodlice to clean out the infected and dead tissue. If you were to get rid of the woodlice, you'd find your strawberries had bad spots instead. Anyone whose grown strawberries knows that you're not supposed to let strawberries touch the ground; that's why mulching strawberry beds with a dry mulch is so important.

If you hang around these forums long enough (and you know who you all are ;) It gets pretty easy to figure out who the real gardeners are

Oh, so I'm not a real gardener, then. Thanks. I suppose I don't grow strawberries, either? I suppose I didn't just pick some yesterday?

Here's one day's picking of last year's "imaginary" crop (staggered harvest):

http://www.daughtersoftiresias.org/images/2006/06.%20June/Strawberries/small/

Not to take away from the highly entertaining back and forth here.. but getting back to the original topic - ants on strawberries.

I was recently at my friends house and noticed his container planted strawberries were literally crawling with ants.. there was at least 5 on every leaf.. they were covered!. I didn't notice this last year or the year before. He tells me that they've replaced the pollinating bees this year due to the problems they are having.

Anyone figure there's truth to that? Are they effective pollinators?

Just in case anybody is still looking at this thread, and the ensuing "dustup"... I fully and completely agree with Karen, as well as her documentation. She was just trying to help, and I see what she got for her trouble.
Karen, whereever you are, you are not alone, and I appreciate the information. I, too, am tired of those who just don't get the "zen" of the insect world sometimes. I'm a serious disciple of how things work. For forty years.
Everybody here are obviously nice people, but sometimes old predudices are hard to overcome.

I come to these forums to learn, not to reinforce my beliefs.

God bless you all, really!

Homegrown

Posted by clockwork Kansas z5 (My Page) on Thu, May 24, 07 at 17:06

This thread is like a pair of warm, fuzzy bunny slippers.
Clock

I get ants also its an annoyance but they only eat a small hole on a small percentage of berries. I clear off the couple of ants under the berry, bite out their hole they ate spit it away then eat the rest. I only take the nice ones in the house.