Hey Moon,

You might post some links to your previous threads, which have photos if I recall correctly... but maybe you're right not to do so as your point is about the process.

I think (which doesn't always generate good results) that one of the next steps has to be about who you are as a gardener. Anyone with a property is going to be mowing (or sweeping if you pave it) or weeding or pruning or raking or something. What do you visualize yourself doing as maintentance - hours of weeding on your knees grab you? Also, do you have certain plants that you want to grow? I know it's supposed to be design first, plants last, but certain plants or collections have to be placed based on their needs or space.

Miss R recently posted a checklist for the design process on someone's blank slate thread... ah here we are.

Thanks KarinL, both for this post and others in which you've answered my questions (especially re: trees).

I went to Miss Rumpius' Rules. Terrific. That was very helpful. I'll be posting my answers in the next post.

Meanwhile, I've included a link to my previous post with pictures. It also includes a link to MORE pictures.

As for maintenence, spring to fall (minus the hot of summer), we like working in the yard, although I'd rather deal with plants than mow grass. DH doesn't hate grass mowing, but he does want to reduce our expanse of lawn.

Moon

Miss Rumphius'Checklist

1. Use of the garden
Cooking/Dining
Rest & Relaxation
Childrens play
Gardening

2. Existing problems (visual and functional) Deer? Pets?

Front yard (east):

1. There is no curb appeal. Its this very bare house on a very bare-looking hill. It has no sense of attachment to the land, just a massive block plopped on a hill.

2. Visitors park in our driveway and wed rather they didnt (cuz then WE cant get out). I spose they park there because thats where the walkway is located. Perhaps, they would park on the street if there was a street entrance?

Side yard (north):

1. Shade, shade, shade, shade, shade! 28 long garage wall.

Side yard (south):

1. Two-story house plus ½ of the foundation without a single window to alleviate the mass, To complicate matters, the yard slopes away from the house, and the AC unit and gas meter. are all located on this sunniest, most visible side of the house.

Backyard (west):

1. Privacy!!! We are on display to the neighborhood and oncoming traffic. While not an exceptionally busy road, our Family Room is in the rear of the house, so not only can any passing individual see into our house, we also have little in the way of a pleasant view.

2. In a similar vein, the yard has no sense of enclosure.

3. There are no steps off the sliders. We intend to put in a multi-level deck/patio in stages, but stage 1 may have to wait til next spring.

4. We have something of a slope. Are we contributing to run-off? Should we worry about erosion?

5. We plan on adding a fence around the backyard, to allow our dogs (Gordon Setter and Pomeranian) room to run. Were not sure where the fence will end.

Miss Rumphius'Checklist

3. Positive elements to be retained or enhanced
The sunset. Peacefulness.

4. Desired character of site (formal/informal, woodland, etc.)
Informal, some woodland-like pockets, perhaps some formal-ish bones

5. Favorite plants (if any, include color preferences if known)
Lilacs, Spirea, especially bridal, various Hostas/Ferns, Moss, Peonies, Weigela, Roses (Buck, Old, Climbing), Lavender/Heathers, Hydrangea, Burning bush, Trees in general, Butterfly bush, Hollyhocks. These are what I know. Id love to try others.
Planting effects: Emphasis on foliage Year round interest
Specific seasonal interest: autumn winter

6. Hardscaping material preferences

brick: especially old and tumbled
concrete: can be used for such wonderful effects inexpensively
pavers:
stone: limestone; river-rock; boulders

7. Client requirements
sitting area: (terrace/patio/deck)
play area/toy storage
herb garden/fruit orchard/vegetable garden
tool storage (maybe)
compost heap (already have two tumblers on the concrete slab behind the garage, but maybe in a more out of sight area)

8. Other elements to be included
lighting: maybe some in the back so we can see the dogs at night
irrigation: drip, where there are plants.
water feature: sometime in the future, perhaps a brook-like feature
pergola/arbor/trellis/gate: a wonderful addition
fencing (wood or vinyl): essential

9. Client expectations for time to complete project:
We expect that this will be an on-going project! We would like to see the bones (trees, hedges, privacy screening) planted in 2-5 years.

10. Budget
Initial costs: ?
Client level of involvement in maintenance: high
Annual maintenance costs: ?
Other budgetary considerations: ?

1. Approach to house
Size of street : Standard residential

Traffic intensity : Low to moderate

Primary orientation of property: front of house faces east

Front to back

2. Architectural characteristics of main structure (see photos)
Type of structure : New construction, standard stick-framed, two-story Colonial

3. Outside services
Location of downspouts : four corners of house/garage

Outside lights Sockets : one, rear yard

Electric meter: North side, behind garage

A/C unit/Gas meter : south, very visible side of house

Taps : one in front and one in back

4. Hard landscaping
Condition and materials of walkways : All new concrete

Walls : One retaining wall, rear of the house, south/west corner, pressure-treated landscape timbers

Deck : up for debate

5. Views to and from house
Nothing but houses and street

6. Sounds or smells
Some traffic, children

7. Microclimate
Orientation:
Areas of shade in mid-winter: North side yard
Areas of shade in mid-summer: North side yard
Prevailing wind direction? ?
Frost pockets? ?

8. Level changes
Front of property
Sloping ground? yes

Areas showing erosion? south slope

Areas showing poor drainage? none

Wall heights :

Height of steps :

Back of property
Sloping ground? yes

Areas showing erosion? no

Areas showing poor drainage? no
Wall heights : 4 feet

Height of steps : none

9. Soil
Type: CLAY!!!
Depth of topsoil : topsoil buried under excavated clay from houses foundation.

Looking at what you've written by emphasis rather than by content, I'd say you've pointed out two obvious places to start your design process. One is laying a walkway to wherever you DO want visitors to park, and the other is screening the family room. The third thing is the plopped and bare issue, and I think once you have your walkway mapped out you will be able to move along on placing trees, laying out fences and so on.

You have to have a reason for things. The reasons should exist before the need to address them does. The check list above is fine for after you have an idea of what you want to do and you have to blend it with the realities of the site.

Start by ignoring the site all together and focusing in on what you would ideally like to be able to do in and around your home (not in a landscape way, but in a lifestyle way- play badminton, entertain 20 of your closest friends twice a week, have a quiet place to read,...). Then list out those activities. Then list out what experience you want while doing that activity. Follow that with the physical site requirements that are necessary to accomplish each. Program

Then take a piece of paper and draw bubbles showing the best way that the activities should be arranged around each other - again without thinking of your own site. Ideal Schematic

Then go around your property and assess the conditions of it. You can use the list above to help you look for things that you should think about. Site Analysis

After you have done both of those, try blending your program to the realities of your site by figuring where you can actually arrange these things so that they work while doing your best to follow that Ideal Schematic (outdoor entertaining near kitchen, reading garden away from road, hot tub not under the view of the neighbors deck,...).

Then look back at your Program and try to use planning, plants, and hardscapes to enhance the experiences that you wanted for these activities and to mitigate circumstances that work against them (shade tree and enclosing shrubbery for the reading area, a hedge, fence, and vine covered pergola for the hot tub area, ...).

This makes everything relevent and fairly easy to follow.

The tern "problem" means "a bad thing that has to be addressed" to some. To others it means a question that exists that needs to be resolved. Problem solving is not looking for wounds to put bandaids on. Think holistically.

"When I draw in the plants that solve our problems, theres still a lot of empty SPACE!"

It sounds like empty space IS one of your problems.

The post by laag is good. I am going through a similar process at my new house. I mapped out my house and major trees on graph paper and I have been sketching out different ideas. My place is smaller than yours but I am finding that after throwing in a screened porch, deck or patio, vegetable garden, kids' playset, kids' garden, compost area, and a few seating areas I am left with very little lawn for the dog and kids. Something will have to give!

Looking at the pictures of you place, I have to wonder if the slope is something that you should address. It seems like just enough of a slope to be noticeable and annoying.

- Brent

I'm 100% behind starting with Laag's advice and then moving to Miss Rumphius as a reality check and marrying the two.
Although the slope is pretty contrived, it is better than not having any topographical interest. The areas of the steepest slope may be conducive to garden "rooms" as it provides separation, if rooms result from your lifestyle evaluation.

The final result will be an iterative process. I would caution to start in the most important area to you and grow out from there or you may end up with a half dozen disconnected islands of cultivation for a long time. Growing outward keeps things connected/unified and allows you to modify/perfect your overall plan as you go.

Privacy is always an issue. Lay out the shape of the lawn to address this. Give more space between the lawn and property line so you can plant more and larger plants there for a screen. You can go closer to the fence wherever you want to maintain the view. Nice gentle curves as if the lawn were water works for me. It helps the design 'flow'.
Don't go too far out away from the house on corners or you will be taking shortcuts through the flower bed. If you don't, the dog will.
Lawn shape usually is what you get after you cut out the flower beds. Lawn shape should be determined first.

Do you have a plan drawn up for what you've come up with so far? Can you scan and share it?

moon child,

When it comes to your property, I'm stuck too. I've tried to understand why.

There is nothing bad wrong with this site. No drainage problem and the sloped lawn can be mowed without a great deal of effort. Dressed out, the lot will look nice and be on the level of landscaping of the area. Though there is a slope, it is not so much that people activities would be much impaired.

The problem is, that to go to the next step up would require major hardscape and lots of money.

I think Brent had it right, "It seems like just enough of a slope to be noticeable and annoying." The slope is more or less continuous across the lot and tends to dominate the feel. Plants may be used to break up the slope, but it won't go away. It's hard to fool what the mind perceives.

So it comes down to whether to rip out a perfectly nice lawn, tear everything up and start over. For me that would not be a reasonable thing to do. Thus, like you, I'm stuck.

If I thought I might still be in this house 20 years from now, there are some things I would do, because at some point I might want to make some major changes. I would make sure that all major elements added now would fit a plan for re-grading the slope sometime in the future.

Develope a long range plan. Make sure trees, decks, and patios will match the plan so they don't have to be removed when the big rip-out comes.

Lancing at your photos, something that I did not see is the linkage between your back yard and the inside of the house. It does not look like there is a door from the sun room to the outside, just the basement door and the door at the rear of the garage. If that is the case, changing that would go a long way in making your outdoor and indoor activity work together.

We tend to look at photos like these and think what we would like to do on your site in our subconscious mind and then our conscious mind follows up with ideas that enhance those thoughts.

When we look at a basement door at a remote end of the house, we don't instinctively feel like putting a patio there because it is not where we feel like we'll want to be. The same thing is true behind the garage. Without a door (and maybe there is one, but the picture under construction does not look like there is) coming out from your sun room, we feel like we are hiding behind the house rather than being in a gathering area.

Pls8 mentioned that the site does not speak to him. I would suggest that if you do something to change its current condition, it will sew seeds of inspiration that you could build on. Don't do anything rash or radical, or big and expensive, but do something to change your perspective.

Yea, I think that is why the only advice that I could come up with in regards to the slope is "something that you should address". I could not come up with any ideas on HOW to address it. I have seen examples where retaining walls and short steps were used very effectively to break up areas and provide transitions from one area to another. Then again, retaining walls can be expensive and, if not property planned, I could see where they could decrease the usability of your landscape. The post on the other thread by catkim has some nice ideas.

- Brent

Isn't that a sliding glass door on the ell? It's hard to figure out because it's several feet above grade.

The slope doesn't really bother me because of the mention of a possible water garden. I would seriously consider putting it on the slope so there can be natural looking grade changes.

As for all this space, I really don't see it. A decent privacy screen along the side road is going to eat up a good bit. If as shrubbery along the back is wanted, there goes another chunk. The dogs will want a piece of grass, the deck will take up something, and POOF! there went the backyard. Ohh, a big tree should be squeezed in there somewhere, and some gardens.... It can all go very quickly.

Am I correct that we are not looking at a lower sliding glass door? Rather is it a fire code mandated large window to provide escape from the below grade room used for some sort of living purpose? There is supposed to be a deck on that end of the house. It should be built first. Designed and planted correctly for privacy it becomes the basis for whole yard design. A colonial house stuck on a corner lot such as you have should send you to a designer for a consultation. There are so many ways to fill 'space' Some interesting suggestions above but not as helpful as standing with a live expert on site. This is not an easy landscape project.

I have become a huge fan of Gordon Hayward over the past few years. I would highly recommend that you get your hands on a copy of his book "Your House, Your Garden". The book is full of practical ideas for addressing the high level issues involved with landscape design.

- Brent

You have a corner lot, but the house is orientated to one road. Also the sloping lot is another consideration for privacy (i.e a fence by the sidewalk may not shield a deck or play area on the uphill side.

I just read in my business books about visions and plans. Some businesses start out with a plan to produce a given product and are based on that great idea. Others equally as successful don't have an great idea, but they have the vision and drive to be in business, and they eventually find their market, because they believe they will. Those that wait and wait for an great idea never go into business at all. What does this mean to you? Live in your land and wait for an inspiration to strike you.

My initial thoughts from seeing the pictures of your layout would be to have some kind of garden/focal point near the rock and cable box to act as a visual pivot to bring viewers from the side road to view the front of the house. Designing the trasition from front yard to sideyard to backyard is easy to figure out if you have houses on either side, but being exposed on the corner designing a graceful transition is a blocking point for me.

Well, good! If the slope is throwing all of you for a loop, then I don't feel so bad.

Imagine my surprise at getting back here (finally!) and finding 18 posts! Unfortunately, I can't type much now. My daughter has a dr. appt. But I will be back later to address questions and relay the thoughts that Laag's first post brought to mind.

However, feel free to keep the conversation going. I'm following right along with you, and my thoughts keep developing as yours do.

Moon

ps: there is going to be a deck off the back, off that lovely, strange, above-grade "ell". I'll try to post the general plan when I get back. What appears to be a door from the basement is, as speculated, a code-compliant window. There are two of them. The other is located beneath the windows of the "ell" portion.

Gotta run.

Let me begin by addressing Laags first post:

When I first read your comments, I was going to say that I disagreed with you, that the "need to address" something PRODUCES the reason. I would have said, "I want to address the lack of privacy, so I need to somehow block this extensive line of sight." However, having the last two days to ponder your post, Im finally having one of those AHA moments. I believe what youre saying is "You want a private retreat in your backyard. To achieve this, you need to address the lack of privacy." Correct?

I guess it just didnt occur to me to articulate this. So, Ive been figuring out what else I have in the back of my mind that needs to come out my mouth (or hands, as the case may be.)

Laag, you said "Start by ignoring the site altogether and focusing in on what you would ideally like to be able to do in and around your home (not in a landscape way, but in a lifestyle way- play badminton, entertain 20 of your closest friends twice a week, have a quiet place to read,...)." Its taken QUITE of bit of thinking, to be honest, to figure out what I want to be able to do in and around my home outside of thinking about my own property. Instead, I thought about parks that I visit, why I make a POINT of going there. I also thought about other outdoor experiences: why I had them, what I enjoyed about them, would I like to duplicate them, in part or whole?

My train of thought finally brought me to designing our house. Not this house, but the house that we hired the architect to design, the house that couldnt be built (but cost a LOT anyway!) I knew what activities took place in our family: homeschooling; a LOT of cooking; a LOT of craft projects; hubbys woodworking; 1 teenager; 3 special needs kids who need to be in view much of the time; 2 girls who would soon be teenagers. These facts and the lifestyle that we live dictated WHAT we needed in our house design: Five bedrooms; living/kitchen/dining area open to one another; some expandable space for another bathroom; plenty of room for bookcases and spreading out for projects; a family entrance near the garage (six people makes for a LOT of coats and shoes!). Finally, the site dictated the layout of the rooms: Garage on the north side to buffer the winter weather; kitchen somewhat near the garage for unloading groceries; dining area near the kitchen, etc.

Is that what you were getting at: The lifestyle needs of our family existed outside of the site where our house would be situated. However, the needs dictated by our familys lifestyle, combined with the particulars of this lot dictated how the rooms of the house would be configured, the flow from one room to another, where the entrances and exits and windows would be placed, etc. Have I got it now?

With ALL that said, I know the first part of why this has been difficult: Weve never really had a space to DO anything in. Which brings me back to my other outdoor experiences and what I want to be able to do in and around my home...

I want to ground the house to the land, to settle it in so it looks and feels like it belongs here. I want a beautiful place to relax, to sit or lay and be surrounded by trees and plants and birds and squirrels, to take a deep breath, let it out, and go AHHHHHH. I want a small place to grow a few vegetables and herbs. I want an area where our family (minimum of six, more if anyone brings a friend or two) can grill and eat outside. The kids and dogs need room for running/jumping/playing. We LOVE cool spring and autumn nights around a fire, so we want a place to huddle around a fire, roast marshmallows, sing songs, maybe with a few friends. I need a place for my compost tumblers (2 right now, maybe a couple more later). I want to look out my windows and see a beautiful, natural world.

Moon

saypoint asked:
Do you have a plan drawn up for what you've come up with so far? Can you scan and share it?

Well, I didnt scan (scanners broken) but I did photograph it. Hopefully youall will be able to discern whats what.

I've forgotten to place it on the map, but the house's entrance faces east.

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Moon

Bingo!

Don't forget to think the same way that you did when programing the interior of the house (garage net to kitchen ...).

The proposed deck makes a huge difference. That is the hub of the indoor and outdoor circulation on the family side of the house - grand central station with 6 kids.

That and the few activities that you mentioned changes everything now because everyone reading this now is envisioning how to put it all together because we have something to envision. The deck instantly changes everything and establishes the order that was missing. Right away the area behind the garage is the storage utility area because it is out of the way of other activity and relates directly in use to the garage. Entertaining (yourselves or others) will be done on or closely to the deck which relates very well to the kitchen. The vegetable garden might go northwest of the garage where it is less prominant in view, but convenient to get at and near the garage and outdoor utility area.

The main body of the back yard is a play field for the kids where they are easily seen from the kitchen window. It will be very comfortable when your trees start to grow in. When you plant your trees way back near the neighbors, you'll be surprized by how less significant that house will be although it will barely be screened.

I don't think that you will want to venture too far for your relaxation area. Perhaps a smaller patio out in front of the kitchen window with some lower shrubbery and maybe a little bit of topography added to make it feel more settled (not directly in front of the deck). Developing a remote corner of the yard for this purpose makes it less often used and it sounds like you are going to have to sneak your relaxation in at short intervals - I'd keep close.

The side of the house that faces the side street is dead space. I would not try to force in a function other than using it to mitigate the big high end of the house and building a little privacy - trees. And why not hedge along that whole side of the street?

Depending on the age of the kids (how near they need to be to the house), straight out toward the neighbors is where I'd put the swing set, horse shoes, or high action, noisey activities (not too close to the neighbors, in case I am ever a neighbor). That will keep your relaxation area from too many conflicts, and balls out of the veggie garden.

This is just an example of how we can dream up how your landscape might work. It is not necessarilly what you want to do. This is the stuff that we get out of you in about ten minutes when we are called in as landscape designers. It is the unseen and often unrealized part of the job. People think that all we do is arrange plants. That is the place where we finish, but the place where everyone else wants to start.

Potential plan for double-level deck and patio.

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Computer-simulated view:

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Moon

pls8xx wrote:
"(clip) to go to the next step up would require major hardscape and lots of money."

What would "the next step up" entail? New steps definitely must be planned for.

pls8xx wrote:
"I think Brent had it right, "It seems like just enough of a slope to be noticeable and annoying."

The majority of the backyard slope isnt too bad. Not enough to cause problems for the kids when playing, definitely not enough to be an annoyance while traversing the property. The drop is approximately 2 ½ feet over about 80 feet, but then, near the egress window, drops another 2 ½ - 3 feet over 10 feet. Dh and I will go out tomorrow and make a more accurate assessment of the drop.

Moon

If you like the deck and the patio and the bball court in those locations, think about enhancing those experiences you want in each of those spaces. Maybe keeping the patio from going all the way to the house would give you a chance to plant up that space? Look now at each component and ask yourself how you could enhance the experience for that one component and how you can reduce negative experiences in that space.

Clearly, dining would not go well with the bball in the ideal situation (not thinking of the site), but maybe there are site practical reasons to have it there. Just pointing out the reason for the "Ideal Schematic" that I mentioned earlier. You may think about how you can mitigate that basketball court from your patio experience, if they must exist so closely. Can you enhance the basketball experience? The kitchen and garage will keep the ball contained in a limited area on 2 sides, maybe a barrier would help contain it more when there is a missed shot.

My belief is that you would do much better to dine on the deck and make more of a garden room out of the patio for sitting. The deck s much more convenient to the kitchen and that space is too busy for sitting quietly. The patio does not have to be so contiguous with the deck or bball slab. Why not separate it with some planting beds with just a narrow walk through to both the adjacent hardscapes. The planting could also separate the patio from the house as well. Can you see it developing into a garden patio rather than a massive paving project? Three distinct spaces - deck, garden patio, and bball court rather than a wrap around deck/patio/slab all the way up against the house.

I'm not saying this is what you should do exactly. I'm just giving you examples of planning your uses so they do not conflict and enhancing each use while mitigating negative impacts to those uses. It is just to make to create convenience and reduce conflict by where you situate your activities, then enhance the positive experience and mitigate the negative.

I'd rather see that bball court in the driveway or out near the play set. Think about the ball bouncing all of the time whether you are in the kitchen, on the patio, or even on the deck to some degree. It is a safe place for it, but it is a conflict.

It really is a process and not at all a check list.

Laag,
Thank you for looking at and assessing the deck/patio. You said "maybe there are site practical reasons to have [the basketball area] there." Well, not exactly. Just that the builder poured a cement slab behind the garage. It doesn't have to stay there, but is convenient for the kids to play basketball. Because of the "hill" on which the house is perched, the front driveway is sloped. As for the basketball hoop, the kid's don't play with it much anymore so it probably won't be there for more than another year.

Now, on to the deck and patio...Thought this picture might help.

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Laag, you wrote: "My belief is that you would do much better to dine on the deck and make more of a garden room out of the patio for sitting. The deck is much more convenient to the kitchen and that space is too busy for sitting quietly...The planting could also separate the patio from the house as well."

I would welcome ANY design ideas for the deck, even just a couple of bubbles! I'm working within some restraints because the deck can't extend more than 12 feet along the house or it will cover the egress window. Similarly, I'll have to be cautious about plantings between the house and a proposed patio so that they don't drastically reduce the light coming into the window-well. And don't forget the slope...Maybe I need to call in someone to design this part. Maybe I need to start a new post!

"Can you see it developing into a garden patio rather than a massive paving project?"

Definitley! Massive paving project is NOT what I had in mind.

Moon

You are all correct when you note that the slope causes some consternation. Im having a hard time establishing any way to make the front and back yards FLOW together along the south side where the house sits on the rise. And yet, with the electrical box and the central air unit/gas meter sitting RIGHT there along the road, as well as an immense monstrosity of yellow WALL, we definitely need to do something with this side of the house. (why did the builder ask what color we wanted for our interior door handles but didnt bother to ask where to place the air conditioner?)

isabella__ma said: "Designing the transition from front yard to sideyard to backyard is easy to figure out if you have houses on either side, but being exposed on the corner designing a graceful transition is a blocking point for me."

Yeah, me too!

We are considering a retaining wall in the front of the house flowing around to the south side of the house. Then the question becomes how to finish/end the retaining wall and begin the fencing that we want to put in the backyard.

Laag said: "The side of the house that faces the side street is dead space. I would not try to force in a function other than using it to mitigate the big high end of the house and building a little privacy - trees. And why not hedge along that whole side of the street?"

I definitely was not considering any function for this side of the house. Sure, south-facing, great light and worth nothing!

Oddly, though, I was just asking DH how he would feel about keeping up a hedge. He says it would be fine. But it would have to be a REAL hedge, not a row of 50 arborvitae. YUCK! Or perhaps you were using the term "hedge" in a very general way, indicating a diverse border of various shrubs. Would the hedge continue along to the front of the house? Does that then negate the need to do something with the slope on the side of the house?

Questions, questions, and more questions...Seems that with more progress there are more questions.

Moon