Questions and concerns we have:

1. the 38" aisle width at the end of the peninsula looks tight for high traffic. The microwave, snacks/bread, tea/coffee bar, toaster oven all exist in this space. We could reduce cabinet T from 30" to 24". That would get us to 44" aisle width. Alternatively, we could swap out the corner kidney pull-out to a lazy susan and save 9", but i'm concerned about peninsula length. We'd like to fit 3 people comfortably.
2. We plan to have our everyday dishes and bowls in cabinet B so they are close to the dining table and accessible by our young kids (they set the table). However, it's a bit of a round trip from table, across peninsula to DW, then back around to cab A. I just don't see a good place to put them in the prep zone.
3. Any input on our two color cabinet idea? Though not shown in the pics, we would put bookshelves above the base cabs in the living room and use side cover panels to tie them all together. Having the butler cabinets on the opposite side of the wall could create an island of cabinets effect with circular traffic around that wall. Thoughs?

Thanks in advance!

rough dims

traffic

traffic patterns

The layout doesn't seem bad at all. I like the 2 colors. I am not a fan of the 2 pantries on either side of the ref since they are smaller - I would rather have one larger pantry and a little more counter space around the stove.

An 18" overhang is enormous and will require extra support. IMO it never seems to look good unless you do nice legs and a connected skirt, etc to dress it more as a table look.

I don't mind the 38" walkway at the end of the peninsula since it is just going to the dining room, but it really should be bigger.

Also the Rev-a-shelf mixer for a 15" cabinet gives you a shelf for the mixer less than 12" wide, I believe. Make sure your mixer fits - I usually only do one for an 18" wide cabinet minimum!

My biggest concern is that you will find it a tight in the dining room depending on the table you will get and what is the largest amount of people you need to sit there. You must put that into your planning as well especially since you have the slider right there.

Overall - not bad - a few tweaks!

Great comments Debbi, thanks!

RE: Overhang - Thanks for your insight. NKBA seems to be cool with 15" overhang for 36" high counter so i'll bring that in 3". The 9ft patio door is actually three x 3' panels where only the center door slides. So there won't be deck traffic brushing past ppl at the bar.

RE: Rev-a-shelf - good catch. Our mixer is is 11.5", so it may be too tight. Perhaps we go with the lazy suzan in the peninsula corner (saves 9") and add back 3" for the mixer cabinet. That gains us 6" in the walkway. I could possibly steal back that 6" for the end 30" cabinet. I'll give it a look.

RE: Ref pantries - the right pantry is a designated broom closet with pullout organizer. I'm not sure where we would put mops if we lost this cabinet and combined the two pantries for food. Since this is a split-level, we would have to store mops/brooms a 1/2 flight downstairs which isn't super convenient.

RE: dining room - yep, you're right. it's tight. We're a family of 4 with very occasional holiday meals. I'll post some models with rectangular tables we were considering.

I've tried to address some of your points. I reduced the base butler cabs to 15" deep to improve aisle clearance to the dining table (38"). The mixer cab is now 18". I removed the corner kidney cab, added 18" drawers and 24" cabinet for storage that opens under the overhang.

The dining table situation is definitely tight. Maybe a bench along the wall?

Hmmm - you may want to consider a round table? Also it looks like in the plan above you reduced the depth of the cabinets alongside the microwave cabinet - you won't be able to do that if you are putting a bev ref there - they need the 24" deep base.

we would sacrifice the bev fridge if those few extra inches opened up the aisle a bit. I'll play around with round table options. Merci'

Dear Pete,

You are making the same mistakes, everyone makes, that ends up with a new kitchen everyone else loves, but one that just doesn’t work for you for as long as you’re in this home.

You have done a tremendous amount of work and it looks great. You have the theory of kitchen design down cold, but not the practice. Like reading a book about soccer, you know exactly what to do in theory. But until you get out on the field and kick the ball around you literally have no idea How to Play soccer.

Almost everyone forgets the BASICS! The so obvious stuff that will Never occur to you until AFTER your new kitchen is done and you’re moving into it. Moving In is the time when You ‘ll Realize all of the Mistakes you’ve made. They were Always there you just didn’t see them. At this point you will have no choice but to ADAPT to what you got and make do.

I know this is NOT what you want to have happen to you!

The Obvious Stuff

You have a kitchen that doesn’t work for you. You know what the performance benefits are and the performance problems are esthetically and functionally.

So you know what benefits you’d like to keep and what problems you need to resolve, fix, or eliminate to get to the world’s perfect kitchen for you and the space you have to work with.

That said, Why didn’t you start there with your existing kitchen layout?

Did you assume, like everyone else that takes on a new kitchen project, that if you design a new kitchen to replace your old one that all of your kitchen benefits would reproduce themselves and all of your kitchen problems would resolve themselves? You didn’t think about this because it would never occur to you.

If you dig below the surface of what you wrote that’s what you’re asking. Is your new kitchen going to be, in the entire world, the perfect kitchen for you to spend the rest of Your Life Living In for as long as you’re in this home? It is the right question.

I don’t know the answer and you don’t either yet, because you are filled with Doubt and Uncertainty. Why? Because you are staring the design of your new kitchen journey at the END, and Not at the Beginning. You’re trying to justify the layout you’ve come up with, because you’ve Started at the END and There is no place else to go.

So you struggle because deep down you don’t know if you’re doing this right. Working on the same layout trying to make it perfect is chasing your tail, you’re going in circles making very little forward progress.

You begin any journey by knowing exactly where you are, deciding where you want to be, and then getting directions. Getting from your existing kitchen to the kitchen your truly want and expect to be living in AFTER you’re done is No Different.

Your Kitchen Design Dilemma is Easy to fix but you’re going to have to start from your beginning.

1. Using your existing kitchen layout analyze it and make two lists, performance benefits you want to keep, and performance problems you want to resolve.

Now you know without doubt what you need to do to get from the layout that you know from personal experience doesn’t work for you to one that does AFTER you have created it.

2. Using your entire first floor plan draw in your existing kitchen layout. Get trace paper and a pencil and rearrange your appliances and cabinetry so that you create every unique combination possible. You should have at least 5 different new kitchen layouts.

You want to do exhaustive space planning so you can see every new kitchen option possible. Almost No One Does This!

The layout you have is One, Try an L shaped layout with an island parallel to the sink wall Two, the island parallel to the range wall Three...and so on. Keep going AFTER you’re ready to quit until you have exhausted every new kitchen possibility.

Draft them all up to scale and by direct comparison and process of elimination you will discover your perfect plan. Eliminating you doubt because you have seen and compared every working new kitchen layout option.

3. With the perfect plan interior elevations and perspectives are easy. Once they are done locate all of your kitchen items. So you know you have the right cabinetry configurations and accessories to store and get all of your items efficiently and easily. So your new kitchen will work intuitively.

Observations

On the range wall the two wall cabinets should be the same width 18” wide. Eliminate two pantries for one wider one to the right of the ref/f. Add removable tray storage dividers above your pantry. Don’t forget the filler to the right of the pantry.

Blind corner cabinets cost more and hold more stuff. But whatever is in the blind is GONE blocked by what is in front of it. Half corner susans don’t work well. If you knock an item off of a shelf you might have to take your half susan out to get it. Use a corner susan or kill the corner.

Dining room appears to be tight, especially when people are seated on the island. With so much space between your peninsula and range wall there is no good separation between work and gathering space. This also makes the DR tight.

Also your perspectives don’t give you an accurate representation of how your new kitchen will look when it is IN your home. You will NEVER see your kitchen from the points of view used in your perspectives. So even though your kitchen will match your design drawings, it may not be what you’re expecting.

Final Note

You are NEVER going to redo this kitchen for as long as you’re in this home. I believe you can get a much better layout, and a much better kitchen, dining, living room connection, if you invest your time in space planning. So you can have your existing kitchen Evolve into the kitchen you really want and expect to get to live in.

Don’t get hung up on the wall locations, or the openings, or room names. You are Playing on paper, brainstorming to discover EVERY Unique New Kitchen Possibility. Don’t get hung up on what you Think you Can and Can’t do.

It’s only paper not construction so don’t be AFRAID to make mistakes. That’s How We All Learn. To get to your perfect plan you need to Finally run out of mistakes and what doesn’t work, so you can discover what does.

You can get DIY Help space planning by using this link. https://www.kitchendesignco.com/diy-kitchen-layout-help/

Hope this has been helpful.

Joe Brandao

Kitchen Design Company

Thanks for the comments Joe. Especially the section titled "observations" which relates to what i've posted here. I went through your comment history, so I understand that along with helpful advice, you are also looking for new clients down there in Clearwater.

Might I offer some friendly advice in return? Pull back on the judgement and hyperbole in your canned spiel. It's a little off-putting IMO. You can convey the virtues of good KD and the wisdom of hiring someone in the trade without comments such as, " you are filled with Doubt and Uncertainty " and " You have a kitchen that doesn’t work for you."

For the record, what i've posted here is the product of many hours of drafts and assessments. I posted here to get outside perspectives because there is always something to be learned, but i'm quite happy with the major aspects of this design. It's not my first rodeo and i'm not the least bit intimidated with the process (been there, done that).

Again, thanks a bunch for your observations - I especially liked the removable tray divides suggestion. Best Regards, SockPuppet.

Dear Pete,

Thank you for your criticism it’s very helpful. I see how my ripping off the bandage approach can be hurtful, it's not my intention.

If I’ve offended you or made you uncomfortable in any way I sincerely apologize to you. I’m just trying to help you avoid mistakes you wouldn’t normally discover until After your new kitchen is done and you’re moving in.

Observations

Your ref is close to your living room but far away from your dining area and outdoor space.

The peninsula is a barrier separating the kitchen from the dining area and outdoor space. And will make entertaining guests difficult because people travel path of least resistance. Looking at your floor plan,

You can see it is very easy to flow directly into the kitchen work area from the living area, and gather there.

So working in the kitchen will be difficult because people will be gathering in your kitchen where you want to work. Because there is more open space there than in your dining area (after your table, chairs, and peninsula seating is moved in), and everyone wants to be in the kitchen.

Guests will be standing in front of your ref, and leaning on your peninsula making you feel trapped in your kitchen. Potentially making entertaining uncomfortable and quit a chore.

To me this layout feels like your kitchen is occupying too much of the space you have to work with, and is too spread out, making your living space in your dining area too tight.

You have a lot of cabinetry but not a lot of living space. I believe there should be more balance.

Hope this has been helpful.

Joe Brandao

Kitchen Design Company

Our first house was a circa 1960 split level. IME, they are well thought out, very efficient houses. One of the results of that is that by current standards they are lacking in brute force square footage. So the kitchen and dining rooms are small, but the dining room usually is open to the living room. We could put all the leaves into the table, extend it into what was usually part of the living room, and host large dinner parties without the wasted space of a dedicated large dining room. If you move the kitchen, you lose that, as well as having a longer distance to tote groceries, and get things from the additional storage space downstairs. You also lose the window you are closing up.

I'd think the opening from the kitchen to the front of the house should be normal door width, positioned so the refrigerator door opens through the opening. The refrigerator can go almost next to the wall with that layout, and you get more cabinet space across from it.

I'd think long and hard about whether or not you really, really need the peninsula seating. As has already been discussed, it takes up a lot of room which you don't really have. The dining room table is right there, and much more pleasant than sitting with your back to that large glass area.

It just seems there is too much going on in the space, and too much duplication of services.

It's been a while but i've finally had time to revisit the layout and rethink things a bit. Much thanks to those who provided some great advice. Here are some screenshots of a new layout. A couple neighbors have similar layouts, but not exact.

Things I like about this one:

• More space in the dining area
• A big open wall behind the stove for a statement backsplash / tile wall + pot rack + shelves
• Keeps many of the elements of the previous design w/o the corner cabs
• probably lower cost than the first design

What do y'all think?

Well, nothing motivates progress like a pandemic and a bunch of free time. I haven't been on this thread since last year, but we've been busy and the kitchen is almost complete. I'm now going to catch everyone up! We decided to move forward with the latest plan approach more or less.

This is the final plan we settled on. Wider tall cabs for better pantry storage. Reduced the bar width. Increased the mixer cabinet width. Moved micro to right of fridge.

Old Kitchen: Starting point

counter space above dw was where everyone converged for everything

Wall divides kitchen and dining

We needed 2 custom built-ins for the island design. I started on all of this in the spring. Made from 3/4 sanded plywood. One is a bookcase/wine holder and the other is a stacked cubby. Both have a maple face frame and painted to match cabinets.

We're using Ikea cabinet boxes and drawers/hardware. The drawer and door fronts are from Scherrs. Paint grade maple in their new "Step Shaker" design. Very happy with the quality. We ordered unfinished to save about $3k.

Everything arrived well-packed and almost "paint ready". A little bit of filler here and there and a bit of sanding. I will say the folks up there in North Dakota know what they're doing. Very impressive operation and product.

I've never finished cabinet fronts before. I set up a paint booth in the basement. Luckily I had an unfinished wall with studs at my disposal, so I create racks with scrap wood. Worked like a champ.

Invested in Zip Wall which is a kit with spring loaded poles and adhesive backed zippers for plastic sheeting. Worked well to keep out the dust.

Here's the drawers/doors loaded up.

I didn't have a paint wheel (to rotate the doors during spraying), but I did have an abandoned sit - n- spin!

Off goes the handle, on goes wall anchors spit apart and screwed in place to provide contact and elevation for the doors. Worked like a champ.

Cabinet paint is Insylx Cabinet Coat satin finish tinted to SW Simply White. I used the HomeRight Finish Max HVLP gun to spray 3 coats per side. Thinned 10% with water. Primer is BIN Zinsser Shellac Primer, 2 coats. Sanded between all coats. Results were very good, but not absolutely perfect.

Demo Day - kitchen reno starts on Independence Day 2020. Let freedom ring. With a sledge hammer.

Dividing wall b/w kitchen and dining gone.

Hardwood in dining comes up, cut every 18 to 24in perpendicular to the planks and pry up.

Awful job here. old mud bed and tile in foyer. oye. bad memories.

Removed ceiling drywall. Access to plumbing stack. old linoleum gone. SubFlooring is diagonal 3/4 plank over joists 16 oc.

Put in the underlayment. 1st screw the diagonal planking to the joists. Then screw the underlayment to the planking (do not hit the joists). Underlayment goes perpendicular to joists and end joints are 4in past the joists on either side. No aligned seams.

There's about 1500 screws holding down the underlayment in this pic. Do yourself a favor and buy a $100 screw gun + collated screws.

Detail of underlayment screw schedule for those who get excited about screw schedules.

Let's put in the range vent, shall we? Mark out the location and drill center hole. Used 3/8" x 12" masonry bit on a hammer drill. Then proceeded to drill out along the circumference. Finally chiseled and hammered to break it all out. There's 8"+ of brick to get through. I felt like Andy Defresne breaking out of Shaw Shank prison.

At last, we're through! 6" vent pipe.

Vent run across ceiling. UL listed vent tape for purpose.

Thanks Andy. You're an inspiration.

Cut out old cast iron stand pipe and galvanized steel vent, replaced with PVC. The sink is in the island, so we need a loop vent at the sink and vent with drain-back. That's all in the basement. Here we see the new sink vent tie into the main vent.

All new wiring for recessed lighting, island lights and dining lamp. Plugs, etc.

A drywall lift is your friend. It's cheaper to buy than rent for a few days and you can sell it on craigslist when your done for near what you paid. Do it.

Everything I know about drywall finishing I learned from Home RenoVision DIY (Jeff) on youtube. It's a hateful job, but during a pandemic the only option was yours truly.

pretty impressed with myself.

Let there be light. Used LED puck recessed lights. Awesome product, easy to install. (recommended by Jeff on youtube as well)

I'm not a fan of Ikeas plastic feet. Sorry, not dropping 1000's of dollars worth of cabinets and granite on plastic feet. These bases are ripped from 3/4 plywood. Screwed together and leveled with a laser level. All bases are within +/- 1/16 across the room.

I've used Ditra in 3 projects now and I really love the stuff. In this case, modified thinset over plywood, ditra, unmodified thinset, porcelain tile.

Floor is done. 1500lbs of tile. A lot of work.

Time to install the cabinets. Island First. Ikea boxes, but we've reinforced the backs with 3/8 plywood. Added additional 2x4 blocking for farm sink support and 2x8 blocking for overhang brackets support. You can also see the custom cubby built-in which makes use of the space needed to support the island overhang on one side.

Detail of sink base. Drills for loop vent, water lines, electrical.

All Island cabs installed. Added two layers of 3/4" plywood across all the inset cabinets. For those keeping track at home, that's 3" of wood for the mounting brackets including the 2x blocking. The overhang brackets are Original Granite Brackets. L brackets in all locations except the dishwasher. That used a "T" bracket as shown. These brackets are very secure.

Toekicks. Here's an interesting trick I discovered. Since we made wood bases, we could pretty much tack any toekick product we wanted. Coincidentally though, Ikea had the best walnut effect toekick we could find at they're typical cost-conscience price points. The only problem is that it's an extruded plastic that has specialized clips for snapping onto their ikea legs. Gluing plastic to wood is a risky bet.

I discovered that the molded slot fits 35mm DIN rail perfectly. You can buy 3in sections by the 20-pack off amazon. Below you see the din rail screwed to the bases. The toekick then slides on the din rail and is held in place. perfect!

Other Cabinets. Selective reinforcement using plywood. Ikea boxes are decent quality, but the back panels are flimsy. Plywood backing ensures items that get pushed against the back panel don't cause problems. Note I didn't bother doing this with any boxes that have drawers. Risk of damage is very low.

Previously mentioned Zip wall poles also work well to hold certain cabs in place like the over fridge cab shown here. This is another custom built in I made to fill the space above the fridge.

Kohler farm sink 30". Hot water dispenser, dish soap disp, faucet, disposal air switch

Granite countertop

close up of Step Shaker drawers

18-21-18in wide wall cabs. Ikea doesn't do glass door 21 wall cabs or 21 glass shelves. Since these are Scherr doors glass for all 3 cabinets wasn't an issue. Scherrs doesn't provide glass so the glass inserts and 21 in shelves were sourced online.

21in mixer cabinet with lift

Walnut butcher block top for bar area. 4 coats Waterlox urethane, buffed with car polish. Still needs subway backsplash to match range wall.

Floating walnut shelves and Ikea magnetic knife holders (retained from old kitchen). Obligatory box of wine 'cause that's how we roll.

Custom built-in above the fridge for cereal

Custom bookshelf on the end of the island - still need to paint fillers to match

Overhang kickwall tiled with walnut floor tile

blown glass pendants

induction stove

still need to hang the pot hanger

that's about where we are at this point. Still need to shoot in the base trim and crown above the cabinets.

The biggest snag of the project was the microwave and fridge door interference. This micro came with a very beefy handle that stuck way out and came close to the edge (Professional series). The fridge door wouldn't open all the way. Frigidaire customer service said no other handle options were available :(.

But, i pulled the door panel off and found that the drill pattern is identical to the handle for the Gallery series which has a gentle taper on the ends and clears the fridge door. Plus, our induction stove is Gallery series so the handles will now match. Woop!

Thank you. Shout out to my wife who grilled her way through the summer and kept us well fed. It was 8 weeks of solid work on weekends and after work. Happy with the results, but glad it's almost done!

Wow! What a fabulous makeover -- well done!!

(with special props to the sit-n-spin LOL!)

Your kitchen looks beautiful. @sockpuppetpete, where did you get the lift for the mixer?

Love everything, especially your ingenuity and determination! Kudos to the wife too, not easy putting meals together during a kitchen renovation, especially during a pandemic! Relax and enjoy! Good Job!

Looks great!! Enjoy

Nice!

sockpuppetpete, hope you're still around to tell me what brand that fabulous floor tile is. It looks so elegant in your beautiful kitchen.

awesome!

This is amazing, sockpuppetpete! I am about to do this for a small kitchen in a 2 BR apartment. Do you have any suggestions about where I should start? I am very overwhelmed. I have heard many ppl on Houzz mention IKD and Traemand. Any advice would appreciated. Thank you so much.