I'm trying to post a few pictures but it's not going through. It keeps saying "error". I'm using Photobucket to host the picture. I've done this before and the Rose forum. Can anyone tell me what's wrong?

You might check if your browser is blocking their cookies. I had that happen once with Photobucket and had to add their website to my Exceptions list.

In your photobucket album, just click on the words "HTML tag" and a flag will come up that says "copied." On my computer, this will put the tag info on my clipboard, but actually selecting and copying the tag line (the a>ref part) won't, for some reason. Then paste into the body of the message here, and it should show up when you preview the message.

Karin

Here goes again

Here is a link that might be useful:

I think it might be nice to have something that makes you look into it instead of at it or around it. A small patio puts the mass in the middle and give your plants something to belong to. It is one way, but not the only way or necessarily the right way for you.

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The thing that struck me as odd was the stepping stone path that dead ends at the fence. I'd be inclined to have it start at the left end of the picture, curve through the bed and exit on the right side of the picture. That would be more funtional for maintenance (and harvesting if some vegetables or herbs remain there) and also make you want to go out and wander through the garden. I have a lot of paths through my garden areas. Seeing the paths from indoors entices me to go out into the garden.

Nice hydrangea... Why are you moving the veggies? If the light is adequate for growing edibles, a mixed veggie/herb/flower gerden seems appropriate for a kitchen window view :- )

You don't like looking at that sweet little garden? It's adorable!! The thing I most enjoy when looking out my kitchen window is watching wildlife. I'd add a buddleia and a small tree called Amelanchier/Juneberry. It's very attractive with white flowers in the spring and maroon leaves in the fall. In the middle of the summer, it attracts all kinds of birds with its berries but they are small, like small blueberries and don't create a mess. I also love looking at my "fireglow" japanese maple, I just love the form and leaves of jms. But that's me. Any of the options you mention would be nice. You could add something very sculptural to look at, or some type of fountain as a focal point.

I love that cottage/potager style! You're so lucky to be able to see it from your kitchen window!! Do you want to change the style to something more formal? Do you want to look out and see finely ordered and manicured foliage for a change?

I thought I'd try to insert the image, so people would not have to open the link.

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There was a trick which were taught to use when drafting "people places". It was to draw things such that people would easily recognize a place that was meant for them to be. That tends to make them "go there" in the drawing and see it as "ground zero".

Sometimes you can do that in a landscape as well, even if it is in a place that is only meant to be viewed.

By the posts above, it seems that many are putting themselves on the stepping stone path and they are not comfortable being there because it walks them into a fence.

What would happen if you lost the steppers?

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I like the first picture the best, but the whole thing needs some "bones". Even a small space like this needs structure, other than the fence. I would suggest a Japanese Maple in the corner - there are hundreds of types, but something like A.p. 'Chishio Improved', or a smaller red-leaved variety like A.p. 'Cindy'. These are smaller trees. I would also consider some dwarf conifers for color and winter interest. Picea pungens 'Glauca Globosa' (Blue Globe) is a gorgeous powder blue all year. There are many options taht would fit your space and not out-grow it.

K4

So what are we looking at here? Is this along the side of your house? What else is around this bed and how does it fit into your overall landscape? Is providing a view from the kitchen window the most important thing? I would probably focus on making a functional and beautiful area that I could get out in and use figuring that it will look good from any window.

You have gotten some good ideas so far. I would try to add some evergreen shrubs and maybe some ornamental grasses to add some structure and year round interest.

- Brent

I don't think it is a question of style or re-inventing the wheel. If that is the style you are after and the question is simply what can you do to enhance the look from the window, I think it is more about finding a trick or two that support the window view and look to get rid of affects that weaken that view.

If it is a perennial garden she is after, why change the whole thing?

Thanks so much for responding and for putting the picture in there. For some reason it wasn't working for me.

First, let me say that I've moving the small amount of veggies to a larger area in the back where I can have LOTS more veggies. The stepping stones were only put there to help me get to the tomatoes next to the fence. The can come out or be rearranged (I have LOTS more). I also have the entire back yard landscaped with a built in pool. The area across from this picture (that backs up to the house is actually my shade garden.

The are I'm looking at gets about 5-6 hours of sun a day. I don't want to replace the hydrangea tree with anything. The japanese maples, at least most, will get too big for that spot IMO. The hydrangea actually stands up a little taller but it had just rained and it was weighed down. It's only 3 years old too.

Yes, I'm looking for some ideas on how to best use the space. Most of my gardens are a mix between classic and cottage style. The bed is only 9' deep and about 30' wide (it continues into the back for a total of 90 something feet).

I have what might seem an odd question, or perhaps a combative one, but I don't mean it to be nasty so please bear with me. The question is: why is this bed here? Why is it the size or shape that it is? Or perhaps more to the point, why not just grass?

If you do not need the productivity of this space for veggies, and if you don't have anything you NEED to plant here, then technically you might not need this bed at all, or at least not need it this wide. Nine feet deep? That's huge. Why so much if you don't have an urge for something to plant?

I'm speaking here as a rabid plant collector who has never in this life had to think about how to fill a space. What I need to do is pick one of thirty different things I would LIKE to plant in any given space, or which ones of my expansive plant collection would best work here. You're obviously a different person (and that's not a bad thing) since none of the plant suggestions you've had or that have been made has tugged your chain. So I would maybe consider the question, why do you need to plant anything here at all? In my yard, most of my beds would not actually need to exist if I did not have a need to collect and nurture plants.

I hope you see what I'm getting at here. It seems a bit like moving from a two-bedroom to a three-bedroom house and then wondering what to fill the third bedroom with.

It is possible that contemplation of "why not just grass" will lead you to the answer of what you should plant. You might also find that answer by cruising nurseries to find plants you fall in love with. But maybe there are just no plants calling you at the moment? Maybe you should consider some more-grass options with the hydrangea plus straight hardscape, some wrought iron artwork on the fence, or a pack of chickens (just kidding on that one).

If you do want plants, wanting to watch them change and grow through the seasons with birds and bees among them, which is what I like to do, then what strikes me is that although you are focussing on the area inside the fence, the vista you see is not contained by the fence. What's across it looks to be outside your control, but it looks like you might also own the area on the other side of that gate. Also, there do not appear to be any height constraints here. Therefore it seems to me that the concept of "outgrow your space" does not appear to apply. That is to say, could you not plant one or two trees to anchor the area? Maybe one outside the fence? And/or could you put up really tall trellises on the fence for vines?

There's also something odd about the grass being the walkway. Somehow I can buy pathways through grass, but when the only grass in the picture IS the pathway, it looks backwards to me.

Finally, because this area is flat, I think I'd do a lot with varying height of plants (lots of shrubbery, including Japanese maples of which there are a ton that won't grow too big) and foliage contrast since you look down on the bed. Somewhere on this forum there was actually a thread about gardens you look down on... found it. linked below.

KarinL

Here is a link that might be useful: 'seen from above' thread

That was a useful thread, KarinL. Thanks for digging it up.

Here's another view going into that area from the front gate. I'll try to post another picture from the other direction so you can see the entire area.

Wow, that post was really a lot of questions for me. Let me say that I have a bed there b/c I like to watch something from my window. That's why I got rid of the grass there. My biggest problem is that there are too many plants that I want to plant there, making a decision difficult. I'm sorry if anyone thinks the bed looks out of place or the grass walkway but I like it. I would love a stone pathway but it's not in the budget (or on DH's to do list anytime soon).

As far as planting trees goes, the area is somewhat close to the house and if I planted any good size tree, before long the tree will be VERY close to the house, as well as halfway in my neighbor's yard. That's my neighbor's property on the other side of the fence, so I can't plant anything there.

OK - I'm trying to copy the hyyp link from photobucket but no matter how I do it, it won't go through. Can someone else post this for me?

Here is a link that might be useful:

Here you go.
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Love the photo with the grass path and shade bed, very nice!

When I look at your original photo, I see a naked birdbath. The addition of a people-friendly patio makes it look even more naked. (Sorry laag, I'm speaking from a bird's point of view.)

Question: do you want to attract the birds so you can watch them from your window? If the answer is yes, plant a bird-friendly limbed-up shrub or dwarf tree that can be placed so that low-hanging branches embrace the birdbath from above. I learned this from watching birds revel in a birdbath in a small courtyard garden. At my home, my own naked birdbath went mostly unvisited. The birds in the courtyard garden would first alight on the lower branches of a lemon tree, then flit down into the water for a splash, then retreat to the safety of the branches again. There must have been a half-dozen birds taking turns frolicking in the water. Not only did the lemon tree make the birdbath a comfortable bathing site for the birds, it also made a lovely backdrop for the flower bed where the birdbath was situated, and created a more substantial focal point than the birdbath on its own.

So my advice is take out the stepping stones and plant a comfortable retreat for the birds to overhang your birdbath. (I think this is what lpinkmountain was getting at with her plant suggestions.) And even though most of your veggies are elsewhere, this looks like a great place for growing kitchen herbs, and they will mix well with what is already there.

If you want more stone to emphasize the birdbath, make the base area slightly larger and possibly continue with a solid path to the grass; so not a whole patio, just a larger base. (Sorry I don't have the time or skills to do a photoshop like laag's nifty work!)

I try to only make the change that I'm discussing when I use photo-imaging because I hope that it isolates the point that I'm trying to make. I did hesitate on leaving the bird bath in there because it is easy to be distracted by it. If I took it out, someone else may have thought that it was the removal of the bird bath that did the trick.

I'm not a potager kind of guy myself, but I would not discourage someone who is from continuing with it.

Breaking up the fence with some upright evergreens would be supportive as well. Again, I'm not advocating the entire composition, but would like to point out the support that breaking up the fence and framing "ground zero" has on making a more comfortable view out of this window.

Obviously, photo-imaging is deceptive. The beds appear to have gone from 9' to 15' in depth. You could not do exactly what is in the photo. It is just a way to communicate the idea of a landing place for your mind, breaking the fence, and framing that landing place. You don't have to have a patio to do it. You don't have to use narrow evergreens to do it. They are just concepts to think about. You can choose to explore the concepts with materials and plants that fit your style.

One of the things that I don't like about photo-imaging is that it is a very literal media, so people take it too literally when you try to use it to show abstract concepts.

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Thanks for the digital imgaging laag. It did give me some ideas and I am very aware of house deceptive the landscape programs can be. I have a simple one and I finally got things back up and running (thanks to the kids crashing my computer). I came up with a few layouts and I'm hoping someone can give me some more opinions on these.

I considered some upright evergreens in one of the layouts but I would be limited on what I can get. It's hard to find some really nice evergreens that don't get more then 3' wide. There are some but it's more limited. I have a leyland cypress just out of view and it's about 12-15' wide after 10 years.

I'm hoping someone can also help me with the pictures. Ever since the kids messed up my computer, I can't even see the pictures on Photobucket anymore.

This layout has a circular style patio like laag suggested, as well as some evergreens, double knockout roses and lavender

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:46292}}

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While your roses and lavender are nice, I like the mock-up from laag showing the trees growing taller than the fence. Let your plants out of the box. ; )

Thanks esh ga for posting the picture.

I don't want anything to tall there b/c it will block any little bit of light I get through there. Also, it's hard to find something that gets fairly tall without getting 10' or more. If I plant something like that, then I won't have room to plant anything else.

I tried to post a few more mock-ups but it kept saying 'error' and that I already replied. I hope this one goes through.

This is another mock-up that I did using a curved path. I liked this one best. There are feather reed grass along the back, although I could use the evergreens if I can find a variety that isn't too wide.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:46293}}

I think that breaking the top line if the fence does a great deal to make what is beyound the fence become less significant.

Also, consider connecting the patio to the lawn (directly, not with steppers). It takes the isolation away.

If you want the bird bath to be useful (and not just decorative), give the birds something to go to - something woody like a bush or a small tree. Otherwise, you might as well put some other structure there like vine obelisk.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:46294}}

By the way, here's a link to a FAQ about inserting pictures using the html img src command. Normally from photobucket you can use the HTML link provided but it seems that is not working for you.

Here is a link that might be useful: How to

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The type of garden desired is what a former client (a writer of mystery books) described to me as we stood at her second floor studio window. " I want a very 'selfish' garden that amuses me everyday of the year as I write and fight writer's block." I immediately saw the design in my minds-eye. That design came from years of experience.

If I were designing this garden under discussion I would not draw a plan or discuss one with the client. This would be a trust-me situation. Everyone is trying to mostly say the same thing but our 'client' does not see the ying and yang. It would be a fun garden to put together. Despite protests, my design would begin with a Magnolia 'Jane' planted off center and all would flow from there layering with the seasons starting with winter interest and then on through the recognized six seasons of Zone 7 gardening. When done it would constantly entertain the eye with color, motion and bird activity. Can't be more specific than that. Each of us works differently.

Thanks nandina for the idea. I love magnolia trees but can I ask a question? 'Jane' gets about 10' wide according to several sites. Since the bed is only 9' deep, that would take up most of the bed. Is that the idea? I also have a very large leyland cypress just out of view from the picture (pictured in one of the views above).

When we talked about this before there was an agreement that when viewed from above the pattern on the ground took on a major significance. What this means is that forms are foreshortened and so should be exaggerated at the design stage. Here, we do not have a birds eye view but a hybrid. When you look at the 'through the gate view' it looks very nice but this is not the op's concern. Also, in my experience birds don't bathe at one place and eat at another.

In other words what is this little garden for?

I like the visual of laag's "patio" so much that I am about to go create one in my flower bed right now.

The thing of it is, is, it is the concept and not the precise execution. For example, you can get a similar effect (I think) by having a similar-shaped area of an extremely low groundcover, like golden creeping jenny, or dwarf mondo grass, encircled by taller plants; you could use some carefully arranged flat rocks (natural rock, not paver) that form an informal, and possibly not actually usable, patio rather than a mortared one; an area like this might also look good done with some old brick.

As I understand it, the more actionable it appears to be, the more effective it might be (as in, looks like you could actually walk onto/into it), but I think the flatness and the "negative space" principle applies almost as much, plus the belonging concept, rather than plants lined up in a row.

So a cool thing about that is that if it is being done for this visual effect and not to gain usable living space, you can make do-it-yourself negative space with less effort and know-how than might be needed to make level, sound patio space.

So that is a feature that I think can be reproduced in several different ways in a long border, for example, and has the above attributes plus focal point, element of surprise, and so on.

Re size of Magnolia 'Jane'... Pruning will be required limbing it up so canopy spread is overhead for both you and your neighbor. Sorry to be so brief. Home for just a few days and then back on the road again. Busy summer. Heading north to visit gardens and meet a horticulturist who has come up with a brilliant product for staking plants and tomatoes. He sent me some to try and I am impressed. More on that later.

Frankie, that is exactly what I was rying to say, although it was disjointed and strung out through the thread (pun?).

"I think it might be nice to have something that makes you look into it instead of at it or around it. A small patio puts the mass in the middle and give your plants something to belong to. It is one way, but not the only way or necessarily the right way for you." .... "You don't have to have a patio to do it."

The same thing applies to breaking the fence. There are other plants or objects that can do it, but breaking it has a real affect.

I used the term "framing" earlier, too. I don't think it is the right term. I may be better to call it "bumping". If you are trying to put gravity into an area, it re-inforces it when you put things in the composition that "bump" you back in to that space rather than creating a barrier that has a front side and a back side.

A solid row or hedge tends to make your subconscience interested in what's on the other side much like a fence does. It is more subtle than fence, but does not stop the tendency.

The "bump" is something we experience in both planned and unplanned situations, but is so subtle that we don't notice it. If you look around comfortable places that you frequent, you might be surprised how much unsightly stuff there actually is in open view, but somehow you never really noticed it. Look for the little not so noticable things that are keeping you from paying attention to that stuff. Something is telling your brain that the background starts before that "stuff".

What makes a hedge or fence act as a background instead of a middleground when in both cases you can see objects past it? This goes on around all of us every day.

When we try too hard, we often miss the simple.

Here is a very simple example of "bumping". Now that this is not a hotly over-analyzed landscape, glance at the image. Where did you land? Where didn't you go?

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Thanks for explaining some of that b/c after the last few posts, I was REALLY getting confused, especially with the birds eye view thing. Nandina - I understand what you mean about the hedge breaking up the fence. Is it possible to achieve with using more upright plants that get 3-4' wide instead of the larger trees? I also didn't want plants that got too tall that it blocks any bit of light from my kitchen. In this picture, my eyes went straight to the trees in front of the house, not the front door. Was I right?

As far as birds go, I constantly have birds in the birdbath all the time. I have Joe Pye Weed in the left corner of the picture, as well as hydrangeas, herbs and there will be roses, lavender and grasses. Just to the left of the picture are MANY bird loving plants. They also like to sit on the top of the fence (yellow finches, hummingbirds, blue jays, cardinals, robins, and about a dozen more unknown birds).