Jamie...

That is a tough one..I would think it would be a matter of personal preference and too whether you are using clay verses plastic, how cold or warm your rooms are, and how much light your plants are receiving.

There are some I know that would use the gritty mix in everything you mentioned that have no problem keeping up with the watering needs of these plants everday as the mix dries out no matter what environment..

Then there are those that like to adjust the mix to meet certain plant needs, like for instance, add a bit more turface for more water retention.

Than there are some that like to use the 5.1.1 mix Al shows us to make for certain plants that like to stay moist longer when one does not have time to keep up with their watering needs as much as they do with the gritty mix..

Most of the bottom plants you mentioned I have in the gritty mix, and this is no problem for mine..Of course, I am very vigilant with making sure they are watered correctly, except for once last month...

Hope you kind of get what I mean..Really, both mixes are wonderful for everything, and I personally use the 5.1.1 mix for plants I feel I am comfortable with..This mix does stays moist longer

Sort of like a grower convenience thing with my plants best interest in mind....

Mike

"I know that I can use the gritty mix for just about anything, but of course that gets to be a problem with plants that like a lot of water."

Very few plants like a lot of water. Most plants we grow in solid media like a little water - damp, not wet. If they didn't, MG Potting Soil and its like would be the bomb, and we could all go home happy. ;o)

There are two ways to look at growing plants. You can look at it from the perspective of what is easiest and the most convenient for the grower, or you can look at it from the perspective of what is best for the plant. In most cases, the grower needs to sacrifice some convenience to obtain the healthiest plants. .... no free lunch sort of thing.

It's always up to the individual to decide what meshes best with the amount of effort they are willing to put into their growing endeavors, but there is little doubt the promise of plants growing at as near their genetic potential as possible is much greater in highly aerated soils than in heavy, water-retentive soils. The downside of well-aerated free draining soils is in the fact have to make them and you need to water/fertilize more frequently.

While some of my (currently) indoor plants are in extremely small containers and require watering every 2 days, most, still in small containers by most standards, need watering every 3-4 days. In conventional size containers, this would probably be every 4-6 days, maybe even longer. These intervals, using a 1:1:1 ratio by volume of screened bark, Turface, and grit - the 'gritty mix'.

I think you're seeing a problem where it's unlikely there is one.

Al

> These intervals, using a 1:1:1 ratio by volume
> of screened bark, Turface, and grit - the
> 'gritty mix'.

I probably missed something,

The mix I made isn't 1:1:1. I made my mix (by volume) 3 parts bark, 4 parts perlite, and 2 parts Turface. (per the conversation here: http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg101454119811.html)

Is the gritty mix you mention here of Turface, Grit and bark, 1:1:1 because of the grit in it instead of perlite?

Are these slight differences fairly trivial and as along as I am somewhere in the ball park, I will eliminate the pwt that causes most of the problems?

> I think you're seeing a problem where it's
> unlikely there is one.

I'm stuck in bonsai mode again. I forget that a big part of why they need water so often isn't just the mix, it is also the tiny pot. I keep thinking the same (daily watering) thing will apply to other house plants in a fast soil.

I can deal with once a week to twice a week on most plants, daily for very many things just gets to be overwhelming.

This ficus seems to be extra water hungry, and if I don't give it some water daily, it starts dropping leaves.

{{gwi:54282}}

Thank You

Jamie

I'm using 3 different mixes.

It really doesn't need to be a difficult decision.

The standard 1-1-1, is for small outside plants that will go more than 1 season before needing to be repotted.

1-1-1 with perlite instead of grit(only because i've had trouble finding a good source) for larger containers of plants that can go more than 1 season.

The 5-1-1 I use for single season plants, like veggies and flowers.
And for inside hanging plants. It's an old house, I don't want anything heavy hanging. lol!

Most of us decide on a mix according to how long the plant can go inbetween pottings. Not so much by watering needs. The mixes can be tweaked for each plant for that.

Having healthy plants is going to take a little time and work, no way around that. Short cuts will only result in unhappy plants.

Im thankful to have finally found a way to keep them happy with a good mix. I enjoy the watering, because I know in return, it will stay healthy. :)

JoJo

Maybe I just need larger overflow trays, because I don't mind watering nearly as much as I mind cleaning up the floors after I water. :-)

I have good sources for both perlite and grit, perlite is very dusty, but is much cheaper than grit. I'm going to get some #2 grit and try working with that to see how I like it because I hate the dust from the perlite.

Thanks

Jamie

lol..
Yes, maybe bigger overflow tray's would help. ;) I'm not big on mopping floors either.

One thing I do for alot of my inside plants, is I have a large bucket with a grate across the top. I set the plant on it to water, and the worst of the runoff is taken care of.

>>Is the gritty mix you mention here of Turface, Grit and bark, 1:1:1 because of the grit in it instead of perlite?>>

Yes, it is.
The 1-1-1 is made of Turface, bark, grit.(equal by volume)

Alot of us can't find the grit, so we sub with perlite, which changes the formula a little, but we still call it "gritty".
Even though the #'s become 3 parts bark, 4 parts perlite, and 2 parts Turface. It is still considered the gritty mix.
The amounts change due to the perlite.

>>Are these slight differences fairly trivial and as along as I am somewhere in the ball park, I will eliminate the pwt that causes most of the problems? >>

I'm not sure what you mean by your statement of being in the ball park.
2 key factors of eliminating the PWT are well sifted materials and partical size.

Someone else can help more when they get here. :)

Nice tree by the way. Love the roots! I hope to start working with Bonsai's after the holidays, when I have a little more time and $$ to spend on them. :)

How often you will have to water is going to depend on several things.
Type of plant, size of pot, Type, and root mass for starters.

I have well established plants that can go several days. I have others that like to be on the dry side that go even longer, and new ones that need it every day.

Your going to have to learn what each plant needs.

JoJo

>I'm not sure what you mean by your statement of being in
>the ball park. 2 key factors of eliminating the PWT
>are well sifted materials and partical size.

I was just trying to ask if I was over analyzing things by asking about the different ratios between the one with perlite and the one with grit. I thought maybe it didn't matter that much if you used the 3-4-2 or the 1-1-1 as long as it was all well screened, that was what I meant by ballpark. I understand now though, you answered my question by telling me the reason for the differences in the 2 gritty mixes (the one with perlite vs the one with grit).

Grit should be available at any farm coop store or feed mill. Chickens need grit so if there is any farming or even people keeping pet chickens, someone is going to be selling grit.

Thanks
Jamie

Al's mixes are not in the interest of convenience... this much is very true... but if you are willing to put in the time and effort to build a good medium, and you are willing to expend the time and effort to water properly, then you will reap the rewards these mixes offer, which are healthier, happier plants with healthier roots.

JoJo has a great idea... a bucket with a grate/screen on top for watering run-off. When I water, I bring my pots to the sink... but then, I don't have far to carry them, and I only have one pot indoors that I can't lift.

Watering in sips while using the gritty mix will quickly become a detrimental practice... salts will build up rather fast when you're feeding a weak fertilizer solution on a regular basis. The best solution, if you can't easily move your plants to a sink or tub, would be to keep a large, shallow pan handy, or a bucket as JoJo suggests, so you can adhere to better watering practices without the mess or inconvenience.

I could shortcut the entire process by going back to a soil that stayed wet longer, thereby reducing watering to about once a week... and by watering just until I thought the soil had enough, thereby removing the job of emptying saucers or having to allow pots any drain time... but I would be sacrificing the health of my plants for my own convenience, and I'm not willing to do that.

I'm willing to expend the extra time and energy in order to give my plants maximum health. And I like the fact that I can control the feeding and moisture levels.

My Mom used to water her houseplants once a week whether they needed it or not... consequently, every plant she ever had she eventually killed. She treated them all the same.

Even in a fast draining mix, all plants are not the same. There's a lot more room for error with a faster medium, but as JoJo says, you get a feel for which plants require care every day, and which ones require care every two or three days. It will depend on different variables.

As Al always says, it's the concept of the medium that's important. Understanding how and why it works gives me the leeway to substitute an ingredient if I can't locate one, and it gives me the ability to tweak a batch of medium according to a plant type and its location.

Al's medium recipes can be used for any containerized plant, indoors or outdoors... and it will work as long as you understand the concept and are willing to invest the sweat equity.

HI Jamie,
Good to see things are starting to work out for you. :)

Grit is a huge problem for me. The feed stores don't carry the kind we need. I guess they figure the darn birds can just eat sand. lol.. I used to have chickens, and i'm in the city. lol..
Everything here is full of oyster shell and other nonsense.
I hope you find what you need.

Hi Jodi!
Well, must say I can't take credit for how I water. Got the idea from Meyer_Mike. ;)
Works like a charm! I use an old oven rack over a bucket.

Have a good day everyone!
JoJo

Hey Jamie, it sounds like you are at a stage somewhat similar to mine -- trying to put it all together enough to actually own the information.

My two measly cents: like you I assumed grit would be sourced easily. Sheesh, I even have 40 chickens, so I have bags of oyster shell, and multiple feed stores, but....not one of them has what we need for the gritty mix. Oyster shell isn't a good substitute it turns out (okay, I don't remember the exact detail, but Al did set me straight on that). What I DID find was Silica Sand at a landscape materials supply place. (I have found it; I haven't bought it yet because it comes in a 100# sack and I need someone to help me with it, but....at least I know where it is.) The silica sand is cheap $15. or so for 100# and comes in a variety of pebble sizes...

Susan
Who is way never even gonna try Bonsai and admires your tree immensely....

HI;

I used to have chickens, and they ate all my #2 grit, and am left with just the bags of #1 and #3. I had no problems getting #2 grit, and I pay $4 something a bag. It is available at the coop, the feed mill and I thought they carried #2 at FleetFarm, but I might be wrong on that.

I was thinking about trees outside and I am curious; Do some house-plant trees / plants do better when they are kept wetter or do they pretty much all prefer fast airy soils (gritty)? Outside, willow trees for example seem to grow best when flooded, like several other riparian trees. Are the number of trees / plants that grow best in really wet soil pretty limited?

A couple more Bonsai:
{{gwi:54283}}

Thanks

Jamie

Hey, Jamie!
Yes, all plants prefer a soil with good gas exchange.
There are some plants with fine roots that will require minor adjustments in soil particle size,
but these are the exception and not the rule.

I grow Willows in a mix very similar to the bark-based 5-1-1. All are outdoor trees, however.

Indoors, I grow Pachira aquatica (Money Tree) in a Gritty Mix.
Although these plants grow in flood plains and riversides in habitat,
they really prefer to be flooded and then allowed to drain/dry.


Josh

Thanks. That makes more sense. I guess I thought that like willows there would be some plants / trees that were almost more aquatic for lack of better wording. I was thinking that perhaps some rain forest trees would be adapted to being wet much of the time and would grow best in a semi-flooded situation because they adapted to it. It sounds like this really isn't the case though since in nature as you pointed out there are ways the soil gets air and drainage to some part of the roots. Perhaps even willows with their vast root systems will be getting air / gas exchange from one part of the root system, even when much of the root system is sitting in water?

Speaking of natural environments vs pots:

I don't see a lot of talk about it, I have used a mycorrhizal product a few times on my plants. I have read it is necessary for most trees to survive. How do the trees that we put in containers get mycorrhizal if we are not supplying it to them? Is it with the roots of a tree when we plant it?

Thanks
Jamie

Jamie, there are plenty of aquatic plants, but we seldom grow them as container plants in soil. I would not consider a willow tree to be aquatic. All the willows on our property grow in areas where the ground dries out occasionally during the growing seasons. They are never in a constant state of being waterlogged.

I think maybe you're thinking of a mangrove environment, as opposed to a rain forest. In mangrove swamps, plants and trees have adapted to being in water. In a rain forest, the trees have adapted to seasons of high humidity and lots of rains. Orchids, for example, enjoy the humidity and rains, but couldn't be grown in a constant state of wetness.

I'm not really knowledgeable enough to explain the chemical breakdowns and the science of it all, but I can tell you that in nature, there's a certain balance kept by all the living and non-living organisms and the constant decomposition going on. It's a cycle that works very well in a garden environment... but it doesn't work in a pot.

Within the confines of a pot, it's next to impossible to keep everything in a state of balance because the same living organisms are not present cycling the decomp... and an organic environment in a pot can quickly become unbalanced and toxic. That's why it works best to keep a more inorganic medium in containers.

Perhaps Al or someone can explain mycorrhizal fungi, which have a symbiotic relationship with plants, and how they fit into container growing.

There's a huge difference between water in vapor form, or being slightly moist... and being in a constant state of wetness. Most container grown plants dislike being consistently wet. The roots can't survive being waterlogged all the time. They need oxygen and a chance to "dry out" for periods of time, and a fine, compacted soil that holds too much moisture for long periods of time does not allow for the necessary exchange of oxygen and gases.

I'm probably doing a poor job of explaining it... we can't really talk about growing in the ground and growing in a confined container in the same breath... the two environments are at opposite ends of the growing spectrum.

Instead of comparing the two environments, I think of them as two completely separate subjects. Each has a different set of needs. In a garden, nature controls most things... in a pot, we are in control... we are playing the part of Mother Nature.

A Flordia swamp would have been a better example of what I what thinking of than rain forest.

I would assume that most of the plants and trees in at least some types of swamps are wet most all of the time. I was thinking that some of our tropical plants may have been from environments such as this.

Perhaps it is a matter of the plants / trees have learned to survive with the flooding, but they do not thrive as they still have the same needs as other trees.

Thanks. This has been a very interesting conversation, it made me think more and read more about plants natural habitats.

I would still love to know more about how the whole microorganism / mycorrhizal fungi issue works with container gardening and Bonsai.

Thanks

Jamie

I think as long as you keep in mind that the natural environment is a completely different subject than growing in containers, you won't have any problems.

It's impossible to duplicate a natural environment in the confined space of a pot. Therefore, we take a different track to growing success.

Jamie,
I can speak a little about the micro-organisms in ccontainers, mostly stuff learned from Al.
It all comes down to this: micro-organisms go through "boom and bust" cycles, depending upon
the moisture and temperature levels in the container.

This is why organic fertilizers aren't the best choice for containers.
The nutrients from organic fertilizers will only be available when the micro-organisms
are alive to process the organics. If, for instance, the temperature in the container suddenly
rises and kills off a good portion of the micro-organisms, then the nutrients won't be available
until a significant population builds up again.

As you can see, it becomes nearly impossible to "know" with confidence how much nutrition your
plants are receiving. Nutrients might trickle in...or they might spike...

Also, without a healthy population of micro-organisms alive in the soil, those organic amendments
sit in the container and rot or sour. The last thing you'd want would be a bunch of Fish Emulsion
in your container....sitting and stewing with nowhere to go...

To continue: by the time your plant is actually enjoying the nutrients, the nutrient is identical
whether derived from "organic" or "chemical" sources. The plant knows nothing of Ideology, and it will
not discriminate against Miracle Grow, nor will it favor Happy Frog.


Josh

So if the micro-organisms are in the "Bust" portion of the cycle, does this adversely affect the tree / plant?

Or does the use of a quality synthetic fertilizer negate the need for the micro-organisms? i.e. is the only purpose for the micro-organisms nutrient uptake?

Jamie

Yes, the "bust" can adversely affect the plant -
from simple lack of nutrients, to root-rot due to anaerobic conditions, to various toxicity in the soil.

Growing in containers is much closer to growing hydroponically...than it is to growing in-ground.

A quality synthetic fertilizer completely negates the need for micro-organisms *in a container*.
You just need to make sure that the fertilizer includes all the major and minor nutrients.

A synthetic fertilizer allows you to deliver known, reliable doses of nutrients.
It can also cut down on the amount released into the environment, since you don't
need to double the quantities to ensure your plants are "fed."


Josh

I'm going to order some fertilizer.

I see the same company that makes foliage pro also makes Liquid Gro and calls it a general use fertilizer. They also have a bloom, Mag, and Orchid.

The bloom and mag have higher P numbers, which I though from things I read is not really usable by plants or did I misunderstand that?

The Orchid is 7-8-6 is there something that makes that special for Orchids?

Should I just get Foliage Pro for everything?

Thanks
Jamie

I would just get the Foliage Pro.
I have no experience with those other formulations.

I've been using Foliage Pro for almost a year now, with excellent results - regardless of the plant.

Bloom Formulas are, indeed, a gimmick.


Josh

Josh..Well said, well said..Superb actually!

Jamie...I use FP on everything, even my Orchids..I will post a picture of the big flowers I got on my one Orchid plant that I have never been able to flower with those high bloom boosters, or anything else for that matter..

Bloom formula's are a huge gimmick...One more less uneducated customer here..

Thank you for this very informative thread, conversation..

Mike

Thanks, Josh... well said, indeed.

That's the one bit of information I neglected to add... the organism-rich environment of the garden keeps the cycle going that breaks down and provides food for the plants in a usable form... in a pot, we don't have this happening. A synthetic/chemical fertilizer that's immediately usable for uptake by the roots is preferable in a container environment.

Foliage Pro has everything plants need in a usable form, from what I've been told...

At the moment, I'm using regular Miracle Gro liquid plant food, plus I'm adding a source of micro-nutrients. I want to purchase Foliage Pro, but I can't justify throwing away the liquid plant food I already have.