As a non-pro, I would think a fantasy, secret, unusual garden that suddenly reveals itself from behind view-blocking walls, to be an incredible and delightful surprise. And actually, a landscaping more in line with what our weather is truly like, with our bone-dry summers, instead of the usual lawn/boxy hedges/pathetic deer-ravaged flowers!

But maybe that's just me....

It's an interesting question David, on the one hand we want to pay attention to the sense of place that comes from the existing and indigenous. On the other hand we want to be creative although not necessarily different just for the hell of it (well OK some times we do). Your question "how do you feel about taking a project in a direction that is different from the surroundings" I don't have a formulaic answer as an artist you must take the leap according to That Thing.

I could make strong arguments on both sides of the question, as could you, which is maybe why you are asking.

There is comfort in conformity. If you remember some comments you made about Santa Barbara, how the city is so appealing because of the strict uniform building codes throughout town? That's an argument for unity. Some neighborhoods have a defined character to them, and breaking away from the norm might spoil the identity that has been carefully nurtured over decades. But I really didn't get that feeling from your description of the unkempt gardens nearby.

There are also personal property rights and freedom for the pursuit of happiness, which allow self expression in the form of walled Moroccan gardens with tiled fountains and palms. Are other properties enclosed by walls? You're not building a fortress in the middle of a vast open neighborhood? I'm not familiar with the area, but it sounds like a neighborhood undergoing transformation, in which case new and different will arrive, if not today, then tomorrow.

If it's not "obnoxious, in-your-face", and does no harm to the existing trees, the neighbor's argument sounds like resistance to change, or even sour grapes that he is not doing the job. Or maybe he just doesn't do palms like I just don't do petunias. He'll get over it.

Then there's the bottom line to consider: won't it be a vast improvement over the dumpy stucco-burger? The new look will be good for property values, that's a very practical consideration.

Will we get to see pictures? The exotic oasis sounds very appealing to me.

It will most definitely be an improvement over what is there now, as the house had only been lived in a couple of weeks a year for the past 20 years, and there was no landscaping to speak of. The neighborhood is only in transition due to a generational shift happening, the majority of current owners are in their 70's/80's and have been there for 30 years or more, are sitting on a small fortune in real estate due to escalating market conditions, and many if not most seem not to be interested in keeping their houses/gardens in good shape due to age, lack of interest, or perhaps most likely, they simply can't afford what it takes. It does seem strange that a neighborhood of 1.5 million dollar homes would have neighbors who are cash poor, but there you are.

The new construction and doubling of the house square footage will bump this home from $800,000 purchase price up to the 2.3 million range when finished. My client specializes in finding dumpy houses which have topography allowing for adding a second floor utilizing the basement area, and in this case, the house was also raised up 5 feet to give the top floor a view of San Francisco which it didn't previously have. The front yard is tiny, only 15 feet back from the sidewalk, so the front courtyard/patio will feel very enclosed and private. I was initially pushing for a roof top garden to be included, but the market has gone abit soft here, and the costs to do this would probably have been out of line with what it could be sold for.

It is an ideal client relationship in that I don't have to have everything defined at the start, we tend to refine the design as we go along, and of course all my design clients have become accustomed to the fact that I change my mind on plantings as we get to that stage, nothing ever quite goes in as designed.

I am in the process of buying a new digital camera to finally come out of the stone ages, so will try to post some photos of this project as it comes along. Right now there is nothing more than bare dirt and the first grading for wall foundations and piers, although I have already been purchasing some of the plants such as some juicy 8 foot tall multi Chamaedorea tepelejote palms, some large Monstera deliciosa's, some multi trunk Chamaedorea plumosa's, several large Neoregelia cruenta's and Alcantera imperialis broms that came from the SF Landscape Garden Show display, and am thinking of the usual King palms,(my personal favorite), and perhaps some Caryota urens in the back yard.

The neighboring landscape architect isn't objecting to palms per se, as he can usually be seen with a stockpile of Kentia palms being stored in his own yard for use in projects, I assume, but his own landscape is a strange "Brady Bunch" landscape of lots of lawn under too shaded conditions of dense Live Oaks and Redwoods, with absolutely no understory plantings but just bare earth, and beautiful outcrops of volcanic rock and boulders that have no plantings to accentuate them. I have no idea of what his cliet's gardens look like, but his own garden, although the best maintained on the block, is extremely boring in my opinion.

I feel that it is okay to not play off the neighborhood landscape imagery, because it is so little emphasized on this particular block. My client would have been inclined to remove the two large existing oaks along with the 70 foot redwood and scraggly Colorado Blue Spruce and old Camellia japonica's which were removed, but the Live Oaks are a protected species in Berkeley, and do give the bare landscape a certain presence and feeling of age. The site looks out on a forest of Live Oaks, and gives the feeling of being in the woods, and the back yard has great borrowed views of the downslope neighbor's trees, with a glimpse of the Bay Bridge and downtown San Francisco above the trees. Since it is a downslope lot, I envision that the back garden will be little used, and the decks at each level will be the primary garden. The decks will be finished as saltillo tile patios with built in planters with stucco finish to match the house, and a grand tiled pool as center piece at the lowest terrace. Of course, in our local climate, it will also need an overhead infrared pation heater to keep it comfortable in the evening, and is meant to be enjoyed as a visual piece from inside the house looking 3 stories down upon the garden below.

Bahia,
Do I perhaps sense that the next door LA neighbor might be stirring the waters a bit, unhappy that he was not hired for this job?

It seems as though neighborhoods stratify and develop a 'patina' over the years mirroring the social and economic status of home owners. Then change occurs as younger people with different ideas take up residence.

Have you thought about the new game in town called 'greening' and how it would fit into your planning as a natural sales approach to the neighbor?

Love your ideas! Go for it...!

Well David, I think by the way you phrased your situation and then your question...you know you have a bit of a problem on your hands.

Personally, it sounds to me like you have a real opportunity...budget, freedom of expression, environment...to do something that doesn't happen very often.

Basically, I say go with it...however...

Since you state that the neighbor is already aware of your intentions (landscape professional or not) and has expressed their misgivings...pull the blinds down. Don't give them any more ammunition. Don't divulge any more. It's none of their business anyway.

When things like this happen in an upscale/pricey neighborhood, it only takes one well-financed, disgruntled neighbor to make things a living hell.

I can understand some of the points that Kim has made using Santa Barbara as an example, HOWEVER there are 'gracious' communities all over America where the pressure to conform has provoked the terms 'McMansion' or 'Stepford'.

So, my advice is to do what you and your client wants to do. Just don't let the neighbors know until it's a done deal.

-Ron-

Obviously this 'theme' is well beyond the bounds of appropriate design. One of the most basic design priciples is to work with the surrounding locality and environment. This is becoming increasingly more important in light of the over-stretching of the planet's natural resources and devastation of natural areas and native plants. You mentioned issues with irrigation, and having to work with the many existing native live oaks in the surrounding properties. You have answered your own question. The entire concept is inappropriate, environmentally irresponsible, and not what one expect from a long-time professional. Meow!

Surprisingly, the City of Berkeley has no requirements for landscape review with remodeling projects such as this one. The house construction did not have to go through design review either, as the exterior walls will remain intact, (at least the studs will be original, but much reinforced with new to bring them up to current seismic standards). It would be far cheaper to replace walls and floor joists completely, but then the project would have been subject to design review and have taken another year to be approved.

As a result, while my client is not trying to antagonize any neighbors, he is also not beholden to them either. It is a rather fine line to walk at times, and I think he is much more diplomatic about it than I would be. As to whether this design is inappropriate for the setting, even though it will not be using a native plant palette, it will not be water intensive; lots of hardscape that will need no water, no lawns at all, use of permeable hardscape such as river rock cobbles as mulch below existing oaks to avoid summer watering, and a subtropical/mediterranean plant palette that is not water intensive. I could make the case that using all natives in this garden could infact taint the local gene pool of natives, as any shrubs/herbaceous indigenous natives would most likely not be from the local gene pool in any case. Also, none of the exotics I will be using are invasive in our climate or capable of surviving in the wilds without summer water, while still providing food to local insects and hummingbirds. Perhaps it needs to be said that the fauna of urban neighborhoods such as this one are as much a mix of indigenous and introduced as the flora.

As the habitat is much disturbed in any case, with only the tree canopy of Quercus agrifolia, Umbellularia californica and Heteromeles arbutifolia as remnant native plants, due to this being built up housing for over 80 years now, there isn't much herbaceous native vegetation intact in the neighborhood. The more maintained gardens tend to have Camellias, Rhododendrons, Roses and Lawn as the predominant plants, or are overrun by Algerian Ivy, Scotch Broom, Acacia meansii and the like.

I had a chance to live in this house for 4 months while my own house was being remodeled by my client, I feel I had a special opportunity to learn the neighborhood and the wildlife in the garden, as well as get to know the ideosyncracies of the neighbors... Having been nearly abandoned for 20 years, the house was almost completely enclosed by oak trees that had their branches brushing against 3rd story windows, and it seemed as if the squirrels, blue jays, etc were just an arm's length away. I also got to see families of deer daily passing through the garden, including horned bucks, which is definitely something I don't see in my Berkeley home down in the flats. I also experimented abit with leaving some allegedly deer resistant plants out while I was living there, and found that almost nothing was in fact not sampled...

So while I can appreciate that my approach is not going to meet with everyone's approval,(meow noted), I also feel I can easily defend and justify this approach as being as valid as an all native garden approach. The project is also more green than completely new construction would be because we are repurposing an existing structure and updating it to be better insulated, solar heated with radiant floor heating, utilizing existing urban infrastructure in an older urban neigborhood, and improving the appearance of what was no doubt the ugly duckling of the neigborhood. We will be excluding the deer from the new gardens, but the birds and the squirrels will still have complete access...

>>The entire concept is inappropriate, environmentally irresponsible, and not what one expect from a long-time professional. Meow!Sounds like someone who has no idea what the Berkeley/Oakland hills actually look like, naturally OR now that the white men have long displaced most of the quote natural unquote species.

The plants Bahia is putting in sound like they will work well from both an ecological and artistic standpoint - much better than the standard inappropriate lawn/rhodies/unkempt pelargoniums/tired junipers, not to mention the roses barricaded behind barbed wire fences to prevent the deer from munching on them; all of which are seen way too often here.

lol bahia..."meow noted"...you crack me up!

Sanctuary. Garden retreat. Secret garden. Privacy. Oasis.

These words and phrases are sprinkled through this forum like confetti. Many of us are longing for escape. David, I remember when you took a look at my humble middle class abode in the Mid-west and suggested ways to create that sense of enclosure? "Oh, how I wish I could," is what I say.

The critical contrast for me in what you have described begins with the ragged lawn / neglected landscape / noble tree "alien" world that exists in most of the neighborhood and seems to send the subtle message that "people around here stay indoors". That, if you think about it, makes the humans the interlopers, the aliens. The alternative might be a concept of enclosure that, to my mind, is much more likely to entice human beings to engage the outside world. Odd, isn't it, that it is the hardscape, the terracing and walls which seems to invite the humans outside.

I guess I'm edging toward a very abstract evaluation. Perhaps I'm suggesting that too much of residential landscaping is intended to be done and then forgotten. But what if you could "set the scene" for greater interaction, greater connection with the green world? The goal would be to make us less the aliens we now are in our own homes.

One caution. Efforts that draw us to look outside, go outside, are "good" for us. Just don't tell anyonewe hate anything that's good for us.

Wellspring

Are you threatening the ecosystem or neighbors with invasives? It sounds like you are not.

Are you confident and experienced enough to protect and preserve the mature trees? All indications suggest that.

Is it a historically or culturally protected area or one that should be? If so, is this so "alien" that it destroys something of significance in such a way that is more than subjective?

I think Catkim's take on it is very thorough, considerate, and reasonable. It covers both sides very well. Like Catkim, I'm inclined to agree that Bahia's project is reasonable as it has been explained.

Sometimes any of us will see things only from our own point of view, so it would be interesting to know how this thread would have gone had it been started by the neighbor. Would we, having been set with his perspective first, viewed this differently? Something to think about.

I am in an area with several historic districts that are absolutely great cultural and scenic wonders that simply would not be the same without them. But, I also live in one of the largest histric districts in the country (Old King's Highway). It is bigger than the actual historic development and subjects every resident to the scrutiny (and fees) of the board. I live in a 1960s development of ranches and capes on 12,000 SF lots with absolutely no historic, visual, or cultural tie to the real historic areas.I need to get permission to change my yellow house with green shutters (and oxidized aluminum storm windows) to any other color except white ($25 to ask ). I suppose I should be glad that my neighbor across the street can't paint his house orange and purple, but maybe it would actually look nice. Either way, my neighborhood will not be confused with the historic areas that the district is in place to protect.

"but the birds and the squirrels will still have complete access..." Well bully for you, but have you even considered that the native fauna generally thrive in and on native flora, not exotic varieties. Allowing 'access' does not ensure a continuation of their preferred, or even essential, conditions for survival. But it gladdens my heart that the the project is "more green" than alternatives, even if this concession to 'green-ness' is more for the benefit of the human occupants than the natural ones. But hey - this is only one property in a whole neighborhood. Let the others be green. Meow!

Someone's loin cloth is a little too tight. In your all natural world you somehow have found an organic computer with wireless access? Are you not displacing a bear or bat from within the cave of which you reside?

Why is it that people always seem to draw the line of what is right or wrong only inches from their own behavior? This is a very pertinent parallel to the thread. At what point does Mr. LA neighbor recognise a plant or style as being inconsistant with the neighborhood? Is every plant on his property found throughout the neighborhood?

Question:
Would hanging a spider plant from Kat's cave ceiling with a hand crafted macromet (sp?) hemp fiber thingy be a single acceptable accessory, or an evil introduction of non-native flora.
Answer:
If Kat does not have one, it would be totally wrong. If Kat does have one, it is an insignificant change and therefore acceptable.

PS. Your monitor is emitting light that is interupting the day/night ratio and throwing off all the native flora and fauna. Stick to day time use and the ecosystem will be saved.

Is it better for the environment to eat organic food which uses more land, or to use technology to produce more on less? It is never black or white.

Sounds like "Kat" has been spending too much time in the litter box. Woof!

Thanks for all the thoughtful and informed replies so far, I appreciate the various view points, as well as the devil's advocate/resident cynic notes as well. I originally posted this thinking that there were so many posts lately asking for for literal help with the garden design, but few giving a designer's perspective when starting a new project, and some of the issues that come up when it is not a garden for yourself.

I don't think the neighbor LA's comments were meant as a dig or expressed resentment, but were purely his thoughts on what he sees as appropriate. There is no overall character to the houses or landscapes in the neighborhood beyond the fact that it is a fairly expensive, homogenous neighborhood tucked in amongst fantastic large boulders and lots of Live Oak Trees, thereby the name Thounsand Oaks is highly appropriate. There are no large boulder outrops on this lot, although the neighbors to either side have them. Native wildlife is primarily based on the abundance of the native Oaks, and the deer are dependent on the gardens for forage, as there just isn't much native browse left in neighborhood.

Philospophically, it would seem that Kat is advocating for a restoration approach to such an urban garden, with I assume a focus on native indigenous plants, and an attention to garden layout that would not rely on supplemental summer irrigation or chemical fertilizers and such. I can't deny that this is also a valid approach for some, but it is not my focus for this garden. I'd be curious as to how Kat approaches garden designs, (assuming he/she is a designer), and are you willing to open your thought processes and approaches up to scrutiny as well?

Some of the most highly respected native plants people here in the San Francisco Bay Area have said that it makes more sense to them to save existing intact habitat in the wild, rather than try to recreate it in a home garden setting, as being the best way to protect and preserve diversity. I tend to agree with this, and think that sustainable and diverse landscapes should be as much concerned with balanced use of resources such as water and less chemically based landscape maintenance, as issues being as important to preserving local flora and fauna. I do often use some local California native plants in almost any design I do, but am not a purist about all native gardens. I once followed this trend back in the drought years of 1977/78, while still a landscape architecture student, and designed and installed several mostly native gardens without irrigation, and still occasionally do gardens that are meant to survive with limited once a month watering in summer. I have a harder time with the purist concept of not watering a garden at all in summer, and accepting that summer and early fall should be a time of complete plant dormancy under our climate regime. I can appreciate the beauty of fallow hillsides contrasted against the deep greens of live oaks on hillsides, and ravines cloaked in green; but it is not a style that lends itself to recreation in small suburban gardens.

Wellspring brings up the modern issues of gardens not meant to invite use, but for status. I am sure that this occurs here in California as well, but our lack of insects and humidity in summer, as well as our fabled light and generally mild year round weather have given us a local culture that inherently seeks being outside, and wants that indoor/outdoor contact. Even for clients who are not gardeners at the start, I always strive to create something personal and beautiful that will get the client out into the garden and start them on their own discovery of the pleasures of the garden. Sometimes all this takes is providing a utilitarian reason as including a lemon or avocado tree, or a beautiful flowering passion vine that also gives edible fruit, or some favorite cut flower varieties. At other times it might be more subtle, as in placing a scent releasing plant such as Breath of Heaven/Coleonema pulchrum or Corsican Mint where it will be brushed against or stepped on, releasing its fragrance and imprinting an experience every time one goes out into the garden. As I have often had clients who are musicians, or hearing impaired and even blind, it is always about multiple sensory experiences, but always with some sense of architectural order showing it is not a wild garden, but a created one. I also like to make such gardens look their best at mid fall into winter, when we get some of our best outdoor weather, and so many subtropical plants from high altitude tropical locations reach their peak here, and are plants that can't easily be grown in the rest of the country. As such, I think it helps define our local garden vocabulary which utilizes plants from around the world that reflect our multicultural population as well.

This would all be harder to justify if we had a coherent, defined and more static design tradition to work with. In this specific neighborhood the houses vary from Maybeck brown shingle to classic bugalows to spanish/moorish to french provincial, and most all was built since the last devastating wildfire passed through this neighborhood in the late 1920's, and gave many homeowners a fresh start. I should post some photos of homes and gardens in the neighborhood, to give people a feel for the setting. For anyone living locally, the neighborhood setting can be experienced easily by taking the drive along The Alameda from its intersection with Solano Blvd to its most northerly end. Another drive along the Arlington from Marin Circle to Kensington would also show the range of gardens and houses.

For those not familiar with the San Francisco Bay Area, it might come as a surprise how garden centric the town of Berkeley has become, and how many serious gardeners and garden designers there are in this area. It might also horrify some to see how closely jammed in the houses are, how densely overplanted many of the gardens are, and the prices of property for the amount of square footage. All of these factors conspire to create some unique conditions for creative garden design, along with our climate of mild winters and dry summers, that only exists on 1% of the earth, yet seems to imprint itself on people all over the world as an ideal place to live and garden. (I am sure that Hollywood, the idea of the Western Frontier and New Beginnings are big factors in all this).

I can see why your client trusts you.

I remember someone else posting here who was riding that native flora and fauna bandwagon, scolding and nagging everyone who wanted to remove such enticing natives as posion ivy, bragging about how they had their young neice out walking barefoot in the pristine brush patch that backed up to the house, and wishing they could attract Copperhead snakes to their Peaceable Kingdom.

As I recall, they worked hard to make a PITA of themself, until it was pointed out that right next to the acres of unspoilt mountains and forest and the lovely cat tail circled pond (with the spillway that looked suspiciously like something in a State Park), they had created a tidy little perfectly weed free lawn worthy of the most common McMansion.

Do as I say, not as I do, eh Kat?

"Odd, isn't it, that it is the hardscape, the terracing and walls which seems to invite the humans outside". I can't get this quote out of my mind, because I feel it is true for me.

There is something comfortable and safe about an environment which has been shaped by our hands. When I walk in the woods, I stay on the beaten paths. When at the park, I stay in the well-groomed areas - never the "wild" portions.

The only venture into the "wilds" was in the military. I did feel close to nature then, because I was also acting on primal urges to defend and protect territory.

How many landscapes designs are great without paths and ornamentation and human interaction?

I wonder if you don't remember following creeks as a natural pathway into the woods? I distinctly remember that water was always a temptation to me and friends, and served as a pathway to explore the surroundings. The only reason that we didn't strike out in any direction in such settings was the ever present poison oak growing everywhere, so following the water or actually walking in the water was the "safest" pathway. I still find following creeks an irresistable invitation when out in the wilds. I do agree with the general observation that a garden setting will always be more inviting if it does show the hand of man(or woman), because it shows that people are meant to be in it, and use it. A bench is more inviting than just a path, and the suggestion of an arbor to sit under is more so.

Hi, I came across this interesting thread while searching for ideas for draught tolerant design. I am bumping this up for couple of reasons: first, if the garden discussed here is ready, I would love to see the pix. From the discussion, sure this seems like a beautiful garden.

Secondly, though I agree with David's perspective on the landscape design in the context of the neighborhood in general, and though I find the native purist perspective too harsh, I believe that we need voices like that for bringing in the balance here. After all on the other side of the spectrum, many people would try to grow a completely inappropriate landscape -- and do not seem to get bashed as much (perhaps because it is more "mainstream" than the pro-native thought?)

Just my 2c.

Not that many photos of the actual garden itself, but if you want to see the finished result, you can go to www.28vallejostreet.com and take a tour of the house(mostly) and a few shots of the garden right when it first went in. It looks a lot fuller now, just 2 months later after the finished installation, I need to go back and take some more photos. It is amazing how April brings things into bloom...

bahia--went to the url you provided...it's beautiful. I agree with catkim---someone's claws are showing. Another thought occurs...do you think the next-door neighbor objected because it's too "SoCal"? Reminds me of stuff I saw in Santa Barbara...perhaps there's some of that North/South snobbery going on?

The pix are beautiful. A great blend of ethnic and contemporary. Loved the hot tub and the way it blends into the surroundings. I have only seen hot tubs that stick out like a sore thumb so far.

I am certainly looking forward to more pix. Fabulous job, David. I am wondering if I should visit the Open House if this property is on the market :-), just to see the garden(s) in person.

i like the moorish idea. but i used to live in the area and on first reading had this thought:
"palms? in berkeley? nooooooooooooooo"

i understand wanting to move forward with garden design. however, having lived in northern cal, i can say that there is just something special about redwoods and live oaks...and that i am glad, even from a remote distance, that you didn't cut them down. kren