Wow - you have 7 kids at home and you also have time to lug flagstones around and garden too? I am impressed! :)

Your plan shows an attractive layout, nice deep beds, and good use of space.

I agree that you need to hide that fence. Eventually, as your plants fill in, the fence will become less conspicuous. If you do trades, I suggest that you be on the lookout for climbing plants. Clematis climbing on that fence would be beautiful. Clematis requires summer water and cool roots, but mulch and other plants in front of them may keep the root area cool, depending on how hot your summers get. Climbing roses would also do nicely there; if you see any on sale or buy them bare root during the off-season they may be affordable. You could also take cuttings from your buddleias and plant those in front of your side fence that separates your yard from your neighbor.

It looks like your porch pillars need painting to protect them from the elements. When you do that, I suggest that you also paint the porch railing and posts white to match. I think your screen room would also look better painted white to match your siding. It would make it look more like it had always been part of the house.

Just curious... Where does that hobbit hole go? Is it a storage area? Does it have a door? I'd be concerned about varmints taking up residence in there... says she who had a skunk family living in the crawl space under her house for awhile last year...

I am one of seven kids, and my mom never had time to garden. Good for you! You've obviously spent a lot of time planning and thinking about your garden.

For the chain link fence. For a short term solution you could plant annual vines to cover it up - morning glories (heavenly blue since the others seed too aggressively) scarlet runner bean, hyacinth bean or others. This would cover the fence quickly and make a nice summer screen, but would not do anything in the winter. It would also have to be cleaned off the fence every year. Longer term you could go with a small leaved, evergreen, less-aggressive ivy or evergreen climbing euonymous Or you could plant a background of evergreen shrubs against all the fence that would eventually give you a solid screen. (arborvitae, yew, etc.) Then move your flower beds in front of the shrub screen.

I'm curious about the ponds and stream. The future pond in the back yard seems to be blocking the walk through the yard. Like you have to go through a garden bed to get around it. Personally I'd rather have a continuous patch of grass for walking through the yard. Do you really want two ponds? It might be a bit much for that size yard.

Regarding the placement of the vegetable bed. It seems the house on the south would be giving it quite a bit of shade. Would you rather have a flower garden by your sitting area and move the vegetable bed to a border? (by the hobbit hole?) It might be more pleasing aesthetically.

Regarding the front flower beds, I'm not sure I would make a wiggly line like that. There was a posting on that somewhere in this forum recently. About how curves should be curved for a reason. Arbitrary wiggles look arbitrary. For example curving around a tree, around a large rock, around whatever. I would make the flower beds very deep, so that you can have enough room for a background layer (shrubs, vines) a middle ground, and a front level. You have the room and deep beds tend to be more satisfying for getting nice combinations of plants.

Feel free to disregard any of this, as I am not there in person to view the yard, and everyone has their own preferences. Good luck! You must have lots of energy to accomplish all this, but it certainly is doable. Let me know your secrets for getting everything done.

Wow! Quick responses! Thank you.

vicki:

I worked full time until about 4 years ago and when I became a stay at home mom, gardening helped me feel productive and offered visible and tangible reward. Don't get me wrong... raising children is very rewarding, but cleaning, laundry and cooking never end and have to be done over and over. My garden gives me a sense of accomplishment that those other things don't.

Thank you for your compliments. I am not sure about vining stuff on the fence. Right now I am using patience and aiming for total distraction from the fence by the plantings. Some day I hope to replace it with split rail with wire fence that I saw somewhere on this site OR get rid of it all together.

Yes, my columns need painting, window needs to be put in, the house needs sided, etc. That leads me to other questions I have about a color scheme for the house that I will post in another forum. This is a work in progress... no where near completion. I definitely want to get away from white.

The Hobbit Hole is the entrance to the kids clubhouse and we definitely need a door on it... maybe a small overhang too. Our dog keeps most of the critters at bay.

gottagarden:

See above re: gardening and fence. I'm not even sure about evergreen vines. I think with patience, planting will achieve a much more pleasing effect. I like your shrub screen suggestion... what I need help with is how to create it!

I agree with your observation on the pond. It is not there so it creates no problem at all! Haha. My plan evolves with time and I doubt by the time I get to that lower pond that I will need a huge garden like that because the kids will be grown and gone. Depending on how the upper pond goes, I may not want a pond at all. I want to fill it in now not being able to proceed because of finances, but DH won't let me. I guess you'd have to be in my head to know all of the considerations that went into the dream design and to realize how flexible it is. That's why I'm here... to consider ideas from all of you. My future vision doesn't include much lawn at all... it may be a woodland garden with paths roaming through it. Pretty big dreamer aren't I?

I agree that the garden is not "aesthetically pleasing", but is also a necessary evil with seven children (like that fence). My home may never look like a magazine cover, but I want to make it as pleasing as possible with what I have to work with. I plan to plant flowers around it. The garden is in full sun... there is shade over by the hobbit hole in the afternoon from the garage. The top of the diagram is East. The plan for the sitting area is to have a shrub border between it and the garden creating a "wall".

I agree with your opinion that the curved line needs to go around things, but I also think you have to make the line before you place the "things" and that is why I am here. To find out where those things should go and how the line would look best. Do you have any suggestions? The bed is 10 feet deep at the deepest point, but can be moved out as needed. I want it to look right with the rest of the area though. I do want that background, mid and front area. My question is how do I create that in a pleasing way with the plants I have.

Thank you both for your input! I still need help with where to place plants in that front bed and ideas for the shape if it is not pleasing.

p.s. I will look into vines for short term coverage of the fence. The more I think about it the better that idea sounds. Thanks again.

I've also got a yard surrounded by chain link. On one side I've grown shrubs, a second side is a evergreen vines, and a third side I use for annual vines. Here's a picture of my morning glories last summer. I plan on doing it again this year in this spot.

If you use evergreen vines, I'd recommend staying away from Japanese Honeysuckle. It's pretty aggressive and unruly.

If you do decide to grow shrubs, it will look best to have a variety of shrubs planted in a natural looking way. It's very common for people to go buy 15 of the same shrub and plant them all in a row.

Thank you gingerblue. You're morning glories are beautiful. I'd love to see your shrub side. DH doesn't really want me to put vines on the fence, so I guess I will stick with my original plan of the shrub border. I already did the 'row' mistakes... thankfully I took them out before it was too late. I want to combine evergreen and deciduous shrubs along with grasses and perennials. I picked up three deutzia gracilis 'Nikko' the other day for lower growing ground cover shrubs. Still looking for info on how to arrange the plants. Thanks for your post.

I think it may help to know that there are three levels in my yard. The "UPPER YARD" (see diagram) is the highest level. The bank garden behind the fence descends into the second level. The third level or "LOWER YARD" begins just below the "SITTING AREA". The screen room and deck are built at the upper level height and look down and over the yard. Does this help with the vision? I will try to get better photos if the sun ever comes out again.

I do have to say that I am impressed with what you have done so far and for what you plan to do. You have taken a blank square of grass and begun the process of giving it shape and function. I really like the touch that the rocks have given the yard. Have you developed a dislike for the concrete blocks? I notice that you removed one such wall from the Hobbit Hole area.

One comment about your planting list is that I see to many 1's. A few specimen plants are a good idea, but I would avoid planting too many individual items. Try to think in groups of 3 or more. I could envision a planting that is based around Junipers and Grasses with flowering trees, shrubs and perennials added in for color.

How did you pick the plants on your list? Most designers seem to recommend that you first layout the general shapes that you want and then pick plants that meet that shape. I have a hard time working in the abstract shape mode. I generally pick a few of the key plants and then use those to inspire the rest of the layout.

Also, make sure you are being realistic about the "buy small to save money" strategy. I cannot remember one time where I purchased a shrub and wished that I had gotten a smaller one, but on a number of occasions I have been disappointed with myself for purchasing too small. You don't want to create a planting that you feel embarrassed about and have to justify to your friends ("yea..just wait...it will look nice in 5 years"). Sure, buy small perennials or start them from seed, but think about the trees and shrubs that will be the foundation for your landscape.

- Brent

Hey Brent,

Thanks for the encouragement and input. You are correct, I do not like the blocks at all. I want to take out everything I have done with them. They don't bother me as much up around the house, but anywhere in the yard they appear very unnatural. I only have the low retaining wall left, and someday (maybe) I will take it out or grow plants that hang over it so you can't see it at all.

I do have a lot of singles. Most of them are shrubs that get very large and I can't imagine planting three of them in any place. I am also under the impression that I would not want to plant grasses en masse. Is this correct? I do not want the grassy look. Not all of the plants listed are planned for the front area. I would like to know what I should use where and what I need to fill it out. Add to the list 3 deutzia gracilis 'Nikko' (a low and wide growing shrub with white flowers in spring). My perrenials would be in groups.

My foundation plants are the Magnolia 'Royal Star', Emperor 1 Japanese Maple (already in at the far left as you look at the bed), Magnolia 'Jane', Red Twig Dogwood, Royal Purple Smoke Tree, Koreanspice Viburnum, Hakuro Nishiki Willow. I chose plants of differing height, texture and color, not thinking enough about how they might fit together because I have such a large yard that I thought 'I can use that somewhere.' In the future I will try to plan ahead, which is difficult for me. I know your suggestions will help.

I have spent between 69 cents and $10 on most of my plants. Things grow really well for me in this yard. The mums in the picture were $1.39 and about 6" tall when planted the fall before this photo! I have a Yoshino Cherry in the front yard that was a $9 twig. It bloomed the first year, it's trunk quadrupled in size to about a 3" diameter in two years and it is spreading a beautiful canopy. I don't even know what I'm doing right! I bought the Red Jade Weeping Crabapple for $9 too. I can't wait to see what it does this year! I would love to go and drop a bundle on better plants and maybe as I figure out exactly what I need I will be able to save for it. In the mean time, I think I've gotten some really nice plants for very little and I'm not at all embarrassed. It was the soldiers all in a row planting that was really embarrassing... hehe.

I think you are making a good start by drawing out your wish list on paper. I also agree with accordion that you need to take breath, step back, and not let your efforts and budget get spread too thin. I speak from experience and think I can "feel your pain"--that everything you want to do, neat plans, gardens, etc are all begging to be done right now BUT IT WON'T HAPPEN that way. So it depends on what will be your own standard of how you want it to end up. If you are dissatisfied with some of the appearances now, it may mean that you have started to have vision of a better design, better quality, a specific look you are going for. It may seem counterintuitive, but if you just leave certain areas alone now, they will sort of recede into the distance, and a really well-designed, functional, "mature" area will draw the focus. For example, grass just looks like...grass, and is neutral in that regard. It doesn't look like a struggling border, an awkward pathway; you just mow it. So leave most of it there for now. If you try to make a small dent in everything, everything will look sort of half-baked--a little digging here, a temporary walk here, some twigs there. I can relate because I got into what seemed like a constant jam myself by having a TOTALLY unreasonable expectation of how much I could accomplish per year PLUS realizing that something "in progress" was more draining and actually more unsightly than something not yet started. As you review your wish-list and desired projects, try putting them into a 5-year (or 10 yr ) plan and see if you are being realistic. Or float your 5-year plan here, and see what the realists here think!

One idea I had, is how to use your sense of how things grow well for you, to be an advantage for you and not be part of the problem. What I came up with, still boils down to PATIENCE. If things grow really well, then don't beat yourself up on feeling you should plant and nurture 20 different shrubs now to be sure they'll be big enough later, in a situation in which you are not sure (at least, I'm not sure) where they will fit into the plan. Instead, tell yourself than when you get ready to plant another area, you are confident that you can find some things that will do well and look good in a couple of years. For some people, like ME, this takes huge efforts at discipline.
An alternative or additional approach is to have one area, not too big, that is your "nursery bed"--it could be rough or it could be more carefully laid out to look reasonably attractive, such as with a nice border of evergreen edging plants. In this area you can stick baby shrubs and perennials for later transplanting, and in that way you can take advantage of sales, pass-alongs and other finds. This helps satisfy the "gardening bug" as well.

One problem with time for growing is that the privacy provided by mature shrubs and trees DOES take time so a common approach is to decide on a few key large elements first--not a big planting bed but the tree or whatever. It's also an area in which I often have analysis paralysis ( shade? roots? so many choices?) but if this approach speaks to you, then really focus on it, walk your yard, measure, look at sun patterns and where you do stuff and decide on a few major screening and/or shade plantings.

I may be wrong, but what I'm thinking is, not that you need a giant budget to do some cool things in your yard, but that you will have to substitute time for money. Time doesn't just mean your sweat equity, but some time to develop one part, then another. If you are going to be there a long time, you will enjoy the results more (notice, enjoy the results more, not enjoy more results!). If you sell in the next 5 yrs or so, the potential buyers will be more impressed with a few nicely done areas and sense of order than with a lot of stuff.

I will bet that as you do this, your own ideas of what you find attractive and appropriate will evolve, and you will be thankful that you did not nibble at 10 different projects.

So, I recommend choosing only one or 2 priorities and these should be specific to how your family really lives plus some indulgence for you the gardener. If your family will actually sit outside, cook out or whatever, then a nicely done patio, place for the grill and path to back door. But don't do that just because someone else might be doing it. Or maybe the area by the Hobbit Hole needs a really good path and ground cover for kid traffic while they are of an age to use it. If you HATE the chain link fence, then research the vine thing but be sure to plant enough to really cover it well--in other words, consider that a "project" and really plan it and do it. You must love plants, flowers--so perhaps you would focus on one smallish area for a grouping of just a FEW of your favorite shrubs and perennials.

Fimally, don't forget your home exterior as noted above. Would the garage be less noticeable if it and the house were painted a color other than white? I don't know the answer, but a common issue on this forum is that sometimes plants are expected to solve problems best tackled by paint and other exterior maintenance. (I am way guilty of this, too!).

All this is not meant to be discouraging. On the contrary, you are in a great position to carry out some of your most desired landscaping goals. But I recommend, take a deep breath, step back, focus, slow down. I also recommend you think about, what REALLY looks good to YOU and what do you think looks bad--bad could mean boring, or tacky, or messy, or something else. Drive (or better, walk) through your neighborhood and others--what things are thumbs up vs. thumbs down, and why?

Good luck and don't give up!

YES!

accordian and frankie you both seem to understand.

accordian:

I completely agree with the cluttered, fussy, small gesture comment. I have been planting plants just so they wouldn't be dying in pots. I'm not sure why it is so hard for me to decide what needs to go where. Am I choosing the wrong plants?

Yes, my yard is open to the whole neighborhood but I don't want to close it up behind a huge privacy fence. We have great neighbors and I would miss our over the fence conversations if I put up a wall to hide behind. I want to create screening instead.

I do have an area I am focusing on right now and that is the front border. I specifically need direction in using the plants I have or choosing new ones to create a beautiful shrub border in front of the fence. I believe getting it right is important and the rest of the yard will fall in line as I go.

We have the deck where we grill and the screen room for dining. I don't feel the need for an area like that out in the yard. I would like a couple of areas where you can sit and enjoy the (someday) garden as indicated by the 'swing or pergola' area and the 'sitting area'. I thought it was a good idea to get a general idea of what I wanted in the end and then work on it piece by piece. I have definitely gotten carried away and started too many projects and realize that I need more focus so I greatly appreciate your opinion.

I also agree with the comments on the stone work. I have done paths different ways and have come to the conclusion that I don't like the 'all in a line as though one must hop from one to the next' look. Here are photos of the path through the sitting area that I like much better:

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frankie:

You are right on target and your input is very helpful. As I mentioned above... my whole yard is a 'nursery bed'! I have done the walk through the yard, figure out where I want the trees thing. Maybe I did it wrong? I planted 2 Betula Nigra (River Birch clumps) along the north fence... one in the lower corner by the hobbit hole and the other about half way. One is directly in front of the neighbor's house. I also planted a white dogwood east of that birch also in front of the neighbor's house that will grow in the afternoon shade of the birch clump. At the back where the alley and power lines run, I planted an Acer x Freemanii 'Jeffersred' (Autumn Blaze Maple). There are 6' arbivorae at anchor points in the yard... one at the corner of the back stairs to the deck, one at the corner of the side stairs to the deck and one in the northeast corner of the chainlink fence. There is an Acer Palmatum 'Wolff' (Emporer 1 Japanese Maple) at the entrance to the yard. There is a Yoshino Cherry in the front yard to the northeast and an Autumn Brilliance Serviceberry to the southeast.

I definitely need to focus on a project and the project I chose is the front shrub border. I am getting a lot of input (much appreciated) about everything but what I actually want to work on! I don't know how to put plants together for that front bed. Maybe I gave too much information thinking it would be helpful to see the whole yard along with my ever-changing plan. The stream and lower pond are definitely in the 10 year goal area as I said in answer to another post 'I may not even want one by then depending on how the upper pond goes.'

In posts above I also talked about what needs to be done to the house and choosing a color scheme (definitely not white). We got a small loan for the screen room with all labor done ourselves. Until we get that loan paid we will not be able to continue on the house except for putting in the bay window. After that, we need a roof, siding and paint. The house seems to go even slower than the garden! I hate to paint that siding... but maybe I should? Who knows when we will get around to siding.

I take nothing you say as discouraging. I appreciate so much your taking the time to read and comment and give me great instruction. Thank you so much. But I still have a question...

Can anyone help me create that front border using the plants that I have? Or do I need another plan or a whole new set of plants? Help!

In response to your last question, the answer is probably sort of... "no." This is determined partly by what forum you've chosen to post in, and partly by the amount of material you've posted.

Landscape design is not really about plant selection, as many of us amateur plantaholics have found out who have come here for help creating a beautiful yard out of the demented state brought on by rabid plant collecting and propagation. Landscape design is actually a wonderful peaceful state that lets you escape panicked perusal of your plant collection for a wholistic overview that incorporates only plant shapes and functions.

You did post your whole yard and whole story as though you wanted landscape design advice. But what you really are after is plant selection advice for one border. But having been given all that information, people are working on the whole package, not just on the border.

And the little advice you have gotten, you've rejected anyway (not that I don't understand husbands overruling the forum, but it's still a rejection). You are in a situation that is part of the reason why I have never posted a question here, which is that your idiosyncratic preferences - such as keeping the yard open rather than fencing it in - actually prevent you from taking advice. Not that you can't have a nice yard with that condition, but you can't insist that you want to work within parameters that are sort of anti-design and then ask for help with a design. There was a poster here once who asked for help putting bones in her garden that was all perennials, and when someone said shrubs and conifers said "oh I don't like those." I mean, if you don't want to apply design principles no one is going to stop you. But asking a design forum how to design without them is a bit of a lost cause. I sympathize, honestly. If I were to post here, the first responses would be "well, get rid of item X". Since I know item X is a problem and I also know I'm not going to get rid of it for some reason or another, I simply don't bother to post.

I think what you probably need is in a concurrent thread titled "FG sectional approach..." started by Frankie. It sounds like you need to read the article that Frankie is telling us about. I know I do! I just spent about 4 hours outside yesterday organizing plants into a TWO FOOT SECTION of narrow border along my back fence. I don't have the mental energy to put order into anyone else's plant collection, I'm afraid!!

Frankie also started another thread a month or so ago that you might find of interest; I've linked that below.

I will take a stab at this, but someone else may have to carry the ball further than my very limited capabilities (blind leading the blind, and all that--no offense intended, 'knees.) Also I tend to be vague and generic, not, "plant 5 of these and 3 of those".

First I want to say that I like the look of your other path/steps--solid, more tied to the landscape, settled. A good look.

You have to get to a basic sense of what you want from this front bed. Do you want it to hide the fence,, provide color, ,privacy, evergreen interest, or whatever. It would probably help if you can think of the beds on either side of the fence as related if only that they ARE related by backing each other. So, for example, do you want to think of a vine-covered fence shared by both beds, or screening shrubs on only one side or the other and which side, or staggered shrubs alternating on either side which provide the screen, and so forth. In this way you think more about what you'd like to see there and then that determines the size and depth and shape of the beds on either side. Then you can see what of what you've got makes sense in that line-up and what else you need. From your list, I echo that you've got lots of individual cultivars and for most beds would need to choose fewer species and repeat them in groups, puntuated by some single specimens. The way I understand it, you may be able to create a pleasing design with more different species if you identify some common feature such as form, color or leaf size and at least repeat similar features, but I think this is much harder that most people realize and it is more fool-proof to use fewer species. This may not matter to you at all. You also need to focus on the conditions--it faces east, but what is the sun exposure throughout the day based on other trees or houses. This all is very generic but aimed at pointing you toward some more pencil-and-paper work, magazine or book photos to see what different selections and designs--hedge, vines, masses shrubs etc might look like. Right now I am focusing strictly on kind of "garden design" for an isolated bed and it is not necessarily fitting together with an overall landscape plan or with choices about home exterior work vs. landscaping.

Another thing to think about after you have a general plan is how you would implement it. I started a thread on an article in a special summer issue of Fine Gardening about installing a bed or border as a sequence of sections after making an overall plan for what basic elements each section would contain. So you could think about whether you wanted to focus on a single aspect for the whole length--vines along the whole length first, followed by other plantings in another season--or a full (front to back ) section starting at one end and gradually working toward the other end. To do it this way you would identify some kind of "vignette", as did the author of this article, composed of several plant species, perhaps ones you have, using enough plants of each type to make up the right "mass", and then if you like that, grow/propagate/purchase a duplicate vignette or a comparable vignette next to it, until the bed is complete. You have to use some discipline to do this--"next spring I need 3 barberries, 2 butterfly bushes and 5 liriopes--- I WILL not buy other stuff that is on sale." So if you are operating in a situation in which you can not go out today and buy, say, 15 shrubs and 30 pots of groundcover/edging, you need to plan very carefully. Also, speaking of edging, a good edging planting makes any bed look better, so if you could focus all of your liriope, or something similar,, for example, on your front bed edging, it would look more pulled together right away.

The sun exposure issue is of interest because if each bed is in full sun right now, planting screening shrubs or vines will reduce the sun exposure on each side, but that could be used to advantage eventually.

I am way ignorant of zone 5, but think of this: if you are trying to do a fairly big volume of landscaping on a tight budget, then what species work well in zone 5, are readily available, cheap at box stores or vendors at garden shows, or from seed/easily propagated, and are tolerable or desirable to you? How could these be used in larger volumes as the backbone of your landscape, to provide a kind of restful, drifts of plantings, but used in some better combinations and with a few other favorites or specimens, to look more personalized and pretty than commercial landscaping but without the cost of special cultivars and avoiding too much plant collector-itis? Many of the horrendous commercial strip plantings simply put the wrong plants next to each other or prune them funny. The color or foliage itself may look great next to something else.

How do you feel about large areas of groundcovers under a beautiful small tree or large shrub? Another way to get a refined, pretty good impact planting and some offer flowers as well. Or drifts of daylillies + bulbs. Use a nursery bed to grow hostas purchased for $1 apiece that in 3 yrs can be massed to cover many square feet with restful, weed-blocking foliage.
Also think a lot about maintenance. You may have already done that. You could find yourself spending hours each week maintaining each area you create and not able to move on to another area. Each planted area will have its own maintenance "cost". Do you create mulch or compost on your property, will you buy mulch, will you plant a living mulch, will you weed early and often?

Wow! I didn't realize I was rejecting and being anti-design by preferring a shrub border to a mass of morning glory or an 8 foot privacy fence. My sincere apologies. I didn't realize that design was that confined. I guess I have a lot to learn.

The main reason I posted so much info was to attempt to give what you call the "wholistic overview" and to get general opinions like gottagarden's "pond in the back yard seems to be blocking the walk through the yard".

I was helped very much by accordian and frankie who laid it on the line. I accepted and appreciated their advice. I have just seen Frankie's "FG sectional approach" and I looked at a section of the article online. That is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for. I also glanced at the Bits and Pieces thread you provided which seems to be a more detailed and informative version of the good advice they gave above.

Thank you so much for your leads and the info that I'm in the wrong forum.

Frankie,

Your explanation and your article on the other thread have helped me tremendously. That is the kind of info I needed. Thank you so much. You make it very clear. The specific questions you ask lead me to my own answers. I understand and feel like I have direction for the first time. Do you know what a relief that is? I have searched and searched for 'design shrub border' etc. and I have come up with very little. It's probably there somewhere, but the volume of info is difficult to go through to find the 'good stuff'. Thanks for putting the 'good stuff' right in front of me. I can't thank you enough.

I have considered the sun exposure and the changes that the growing plants will cause and maintenance to some extent. I want everything to grow in fully eventually. I probably made too many beds to begin with but thankfully not near as large as they are in the diagram! Our local street department provides mulch and compost free of charge. What a blessing. I also started my own compost pile after cleanup this spring. I like the living mulch idea too. I am going to try to get the FG mag and definitely read the 'bits and pieces' thread. Maybe I'm not in the wrong forum after all. Thanks again.

p.s.

No offense taken... I'm perfectly okay with being 'blind'! Thanks for helping me see.

Karin, have a glass of Merlot, for Pete's sake, and put your Forum Police badge in the drawer. People are people and arrive at their destinations by different routes and by mulling things over & thinking out loud, so to speak, and also by trial and error. Think breathing space and not instant closure. The front bed has the potential to provide screening, if that's a goal. Its design can be a stepping stone to other design experiences. You've had some interesting gardening experiences & struggles yourself that you have shared and can continue to share in ways that might help someone have a breakthrough, not a breakdown!

'knees, online you can also access some bed designs and landscape designs, Better Homes & Gardens has several plans that can give ideas. Some of these are more functionally oriented than others: "morning sun border for spring color" ; "mixed shrub border for privacy" (pretend examples). These and other photos (library, bookstore) can help you if you're trying to "see" what to plant. You can also post a bed design question on the shrub forum because any of those named forums have posters who focus more on exact species and plant combinations and there are more posts about mixed shrub borders, and someone might organize your plant list into its properties for you, for example, but in my experience, the forums (any kind) seldom give highly specific advice, a blueprint (names, rank, serial number) for EXACTLY what should go in your overall design plan, or what to plant where in an entire bed, border, or yard. How could they, and if they did, would it necessarily be what you should do? Instead, think of the forums mostly as a way to get a step or 2 further in your own thinking and design education, to focus your own reading, research, or questions more clearly, to see cool photos of other yards, design layouts (what works & why--lurk & learn !) I think that's what you are doing anyway.

You made some choices about your trees, so you can use a similar approach to think about your front bed. Identify elements of form (height, shape), decidous vs. evergreen, other features (flowers, color) that you want. Organize your existing plant supplies according to their features (read about each as a reminder, if needed). See what they would be able to "do" for you.

That said, it is still possible someone will offer you a specific suggestion for, 5 of this alternating with 5 of that fronted by 3 drifts of 3 each of those, etc.

I'm glad Frankie brought up the FG border article, as I was wracking my brains to try to remember when it had been first published.

Another resource I've seen recommended is The Well-Designed Mixed Garden: Building Beds and Borders with Trees, Shrubs, Perennials, Annuals, and Bulbs by Tracy Disabato-Aust. You might want to check it out of the library.

You won't necessarily get the same advice from both sources, but they are both sources that focus on the design.

One other thought - if the chain link is necessary and you don't want to put in shrub borders to block it, can you paint it black or a dark green so that it doesn't stand out quite so much?

Oh hey, now don't give Karin a hard time! I kind of know what she means. callousedkness is definitely looking for two different kinds of advice, overall design advice (which is what this forum can really sink its teeth into!) and which she seems to be processing and mulling over but also advice on plant selection and placement which this forum does not usually deal with other than reminding posters to think of scale, form, texture, etc. in selecting plants (and this is great advice but I understand difficult when someone is looking for specific suggestions and in callousedknees case seems to be a plant collector.) Maybe those parts of this post can be addressed on a different forum (not sure which one, maybe cottage garden? Those posters seem to be the most committed gardeners.)

callousedknees, I do like the grouped stonework you've done very much. In terms of the fence issue I didn't express myself well, I didn't mean a tall stockade type fence but a fence that give more of a "suggestion" of enclosure perhaps with weightier elements (a post and rail type for example if you are looking for a rustic feel or maybe a wood lattice or picket fence) that gives a visual delineation that says "my garden is here, pay no attention to that truck in the background!" The style of the fence could tie into architectural elements of your house (even just being the same color!) and would help make your property unified. The maybe you could go wild wuth plant experimentation because you would have the "bones" to support all the fun!

I do understand the dynamic and the issues. I simply don't participate in many posts because I don't know what to say or don't have the energy to say it constructively. Notice constructively--not nice, not agree-happy-happy. I'm primarily suggesting that certain approaches are simply not productive. It is more productive either say nothing or to steer a poster with a specific request or suggestion and that I thought there was still room to do that in the existing thread, on this LD forum, if that is really the goal. If every poster could instantly grasp every design concept or run back to the table to make the perfect big picture design they would not need a forum. There is a difference between emphasis or repeating a point, vs. a kind of psychoanalysis. For example, laag said re: the big hollies--get professional help (well, maybe he MEANT psychoanalysis!). He didn't have to say that; he could have said, you're not listening, to heck with you. But he simply re-iterated--simply. I say, we are too much into the digital instant messaging/instant action. Let the concepts breathe a little.

For example, if one wanted to participate in a discussion focused on big design issues for callousedknees, one might suggest, "what I would like to see is a new diagram of your yard with just the existing hardscape and your tree placement. That would help focus on the big picture and some important design issues. I'm not prepared to give advice on the front bed itself" Specific suggestions on the fence type, hiding the fence, all that could just as easily be seen as too narrowly focused. How could anyone help but be somewhat confused by the responses? Focus, unclutter, don't focus, standback.

But, it is a forum and I do not have a badge either. I may be able to come up with a separate thread on an idea I have about how the dynamics of discussions work, but it may be irrelevant.

Thank you all for so much help. Frankie's explanation and sending me to the FG article has given me more of a sense of what needs to happen in my head and out in the yard. I no longer feel the need for specific "5 of this alternating with 5 of that fronted by 3 drifts of 3 each of those, etc." advice. I know that Karin had the best intentions. Frankie's last post said it all... it's not what you say... it's how you say it. The combined advice to stand back... get the big picture... and then focus on an important area was pretty clear and didn't really confuse me.

I have collected plants, but as I did, I tried to think of my yard, and the form, shape and color of the plants. Now that I have direction in how to put them together I will be able to figure out what else I need. I think I made good choices for my area and for the look that I want. Split rail is a great idea and I had considered it, but ruled it out because of the expense. Now that I am beginning to realize how important some things are in the grand scheme, I know I need to take a different approach and get the high dollar items that will really bring everything together. Maybe I can start on the front side and then make my way around the yard.

I have learned more in this discussion than I have in all of my wanderings through cyberspace. Thank you so much. I'm off to check out nhbabs leads.

Wow! This thread has really taken off and generated some good discussion!

One of the first posts I made to this forum two years ago was about a border along my back fence. It read a lot like yours (though I did not have a plan for my entire yard). I had a handful of shrubs in mind, but needed help with the final selection and the layout. That thread generated only a couple responses and nothing too helpful.

At the time I did not realize how difficult it is to recommend specific plants and layouts to others. It seems like it should be easy, but the reality is that there are thousands of different plants that can work in any particular spot. You could go to your local bookstore and see a thousand pictures of garden beds in front of a fence and not find one that suits you. What is the chance that somebody will happen to recommend the perfect garden to you on a forum? Plant selection and layout can be such a personal thing.

Don't ignore plain-ole evergreen shrubs. It is very hard to pull off a garden bed full of "all star" plants. Unfortunately zone 5 limits you when it comes to evergreens (but you have a much better pick of conifers than I do).

BTW, I really like the look of ornamental grasses planted in mass.

- Brent

Thanks for the defense, Accordian, though I think I'll have the merlot too! Although it seldom seems it, a curmudgeon can indeed be meaning well; thanks for recognizing that, Callousedknees. You'd said in your Original Posting: "I know this is a lot of info and please let me know if I am overstepping the limits of the site." By the time I posted, you'd also repeated your main question no less than four times, and were obviously getting frustrated that no one was answering it. Not trying to be Forum Police, though I often wish we had one. Just trying to let you know why you weren't getting what you wanted, and glad you were able to pick up the insights that did come your way.

Cheers...

Hi, Callousedknees (what a GREAT name!)--

I'm coming to this post a few days late. I have read ALL of it, but have to admit I skimmed over ALL of your plant selections. Partly, because I need to be out in my own garden doing something, and partly because I'm impatient, and partly because I'm a "space" designer. Figuring out what to put in a "space" is MUCH harder than drawing neat lines and circles. So I'm going to concentrate on "spaces" and "vistas".

WHAT chain link fence? I don't see a chain link fence, I see your neighbors' homes & cars. Or, I "could" see fabulous roses in bloom (if any are available for zone 5), or other flowering shrubs.

WHAT ugly white garage building? I saw some shrubs in front of a white building. If that building is yours, do something fun w/ it. Paint a faux mural on it (wait, can a mural be faux? LOL!) Paint it purple or chartreuse or paint a cottage garden vignette on it. Paint images of your kids and their activities on it, or let your kids, their friends, & your friends use it as an autograph or (nice) grafitti wall. If the buiilding isn't yours, but doesn't face the owner's home, then ask them if it can be painted dark green or black so it will "disappear" behind your plantings.

I also like the idea of painting the chain link fence the dark green or black. There is at least one commercial fence company that sells "invisible" plastic chain link deer/dog/cat proof fencing, and it is black, "nearly/completely" hides when strung through woodland properties. I know yours isn't woodland, but you get the idea.

Can you reserve your prime plants for inside the fence, and then plant deer proof ones outside the fence? Or nearly nothing? Just grass or an interesting/cute fountain, statue, or "artistic" , or "collection" (pile of?) rocks placed "just so" in a focal point of the deer area?

I too like your wider paths. From the folks here, I learned to crave, and try to make, the widest, smoothest paths possible. Go stand at the threshold of each of the main paths, spread your arms wide, and imagine welcoming as many of your kids & future spouses & grandkids as you can, in one BIG hug. A wide path will allow more people on it at a time, creating two plusses: a bigger group hug and a better hardscape visual.

Back to the chain link fence. I'm glad you're thinking about replacing it now instead of later (tho not because of it's "eye-sore-ness"). I was going to suggest that whatever you decide to do w/ the fence, make sure you plant your plants 1-2 feet closer into your yard from the fence so that when you do replace it, you won't tear up too many of your plants.

I haven't lived w/ a chain link fence since......... ever? Maybe somewhere as a kid, maybe in a rent house as a newlywed? Soooooo, I don't know the angst of an ugly-to-you fence. BUT, I have CRAVED such a fence! Just think how easy it would be to tie up the climbing roses, or clematis, or floppy daisies, or whatever on the ready made lattice a chain link provides.

Why DOESN'T your husband want vines? ALL vines ALL the time, or just certain ones he's got bad memories of?

Sunflowers don't HAVE to be ugly, plant something shorter in front of them, or cut the flowers, bring them inside (or venture into flower farming and sell them somewhere!), and then plant a NEW crop where the old one was. Just because they're there, doesn't mean they're PERMANENT!!!! Unless you're using them as a screen for you or forage for birds. Even so, plant something shorter in front of them.

Just how good of neighbors do you have? Occassional visits over the fence, daily get-togethers, instant or real lifelong best friends? Whatever your relationship, consider proposing a REALLY "wild" idea.......

How 'bout SHARING "a" or "many" garden spaces with them. One of the prettiest gardens I ever saw spanned the non-fenced front yards of two side by side homes. It was right out front by the sidewalk and absolutely stunning. I think each homeowner had a few different things than the other, (ie more hostas in one, more ??? in another), but there was a small stone pathway between the two, and there was enough cohesiveness in plant material to make the two look like one.

Ask your neighbor (and yourselves, of course!) if they'd consdider a small or large gate between your properites. A small gate could have an arbor top, I'm thinking white pickets w/ white painted arbor over. A large one could be the width and sturdiness of a pergola, complete w/ Really Cool climbing roses (find zone 5 thornless ones for kids' safety), or other (gasp!) vines. (Of course, w/ hubby's approval.) Maybe grape vines, for fruit & shade!

If a shared gate or pergola entrance to each others yards is not possible, then at least ask them if you can "borrow" X amount of space on their side of the fence to plant mutually pleasing plants that will benefit both families.

OH OH OH OH! I nearly forgot one of the first ideas I had. If not a gate or pergola, add some height w/ 4x4 or 6x6 8 or 12' tall "pillars" at random/planned places along your fenceline. That will allow "certain plants" to climb up "mannerly", will add the Height visual factor that's cheaper (?) than plants, and will most certainly be a conversation starter--why do you have THAT thing there? LOL!

Back to planting small "vignettes" at a time:
It's probably on page 2 or 3 of this forum by now, but someone recently posted "pics of my garden". On it she links to the gallery site of the Decorating forum (via thathomesite's forums). (If it's not on this forum, check the shade gardening forum). She has a beautiful garden, and the pics she shows are of a shady area w/ hostas and ferns and astilbes. GorJUS! It's probably similar to the FG article, which I haven't seen or linked to yet, no time, but will.

I'm a (wish I had at least one) bench lover. I'm always wandering around my yard, figureing out where the perfect place for a bench would be. I live in a woodland and have lots of neat views, so, ideally, I'd have SEVERAL benches. Benches provide WONDERFUL focal points, and can be nestled into a shrub border (yes, INSIDE THE GARDEN edges), or flanked w/ cool big flower pots overflowing w/ ????, or used for their intended purpose, enjoying a good book or lemonade while you watch the kids play.

So, as you're adding fences & plants to your yard, DO add 1 or more benches or sitting areas, EVEN THO you have the inside screen room.

Okay, I've rambled too long and am losing my gardening time. Hope some of this helps.

Back to the fence once more: the only thing that will hide the pick up truck is a tall fence on your side or for them to park it elsewhere. Ditto the fence itself, or any other eyesores. You're going to have to learn to "see past" those things to the other good sights of your neighborhood. If you use benches faced inward into your yard/garden, that will also help. Won't solve the "looking out" problem, but again, that's going to depend a lot on your "perspective". (Said nicely, not snipey, in case it came across "wrong".)

SusiQ

PS--If you paint the chain link or garage wall that dark green or black, make sure its a matte/flat finish, and the darkest, most nearly black green you can get. Don't EVEN think about a forrest or hunter green, or any green that you can tell is green. Now, whether that darkest green is better than a plain black, I have no clue. Someone told me there is a certain kind of paint to get for a chain link, but I can't remember what it is. Your hardware store or paint store person will know.

Brent: I'm going to try the libraries. I got a lot of good info from Frankie that will help too. Definitely plan on using evergreens. I have some grasses planted in threes, but they are so small I've yet to see the effect created. Thanks for the input.

Karin: It's too bad we can't all get together and have that glass of merlot. It's so much easier to convey our good intentions in person!

Oh Susiq: Wow! You have tons of ideas. I don't know if I'm brave enough to paint all over my garage, but you sure did give me a different angle and a lot to think about. I agree with the big paths. I don't have deer, so that won't be an issue. I haven't been able to grow a rose yet. I planted two beautiful yellow climbers on the back fence last spring, but they look dead as a doornail this year. I guess we'll see. Still tossing the vine idea around. A pergola was in my plan diagram. I also have a couple of spots I would like to put arbors. I guess I'd have to get rid of the fence first for the shared garden. Love benches... have one, need a couple more. I'm still looking for the posts you talked about. Thanks for all your ideas.

Here is a diagram of my plan for the plants I have with the knowledge I've gained. I can steal the Green Mound from another area in the yard or buy more if I find it... same with the grasses. Key: EG=evergreen, MJ=Magnolia Jane, MR=Magnolia Royal Star, CM=Crepe Myrtle, GM=Green Mound Juniper, D=Deutzia 'Nikko', JB=Japanese Barberry, G=Grass, The fence section is 50 feet long and 8-10 feet deep. I will make it deeper if necessary. I think I have it spaced okay. I can fill in with perrennials in groups. Opinions are appreciated... again.

{{gwi:18903}}

And here is a diagram of the yard with the existing beds and hardscape if you want it... Ha!

{{gwi:18905}}

Wow, such a lot of ideas!

I'm sorry, but I still don't like the squiggly line of your front bed. If you want a curved line, I would take make the bed go out quite far on the top left (maybe even all the way out to the sidewalk), and then do one gentle swoop all the way to the gate. So it would be a big wedge shape, 15 feet or so at the left, tapering down to 5 feet or so near the gate. Sorry I don't have the software to draw it, but it could be a gentle concave curve, leaving the lawn area looking semi-circular. Does that make sense?

Then you could put a big magnolia out on the sidewalk end, another one in the corner, and maybe your last crepe myrtle nearer the gate. Right now I think having 3 trees along that fence is too much. It will be fine while they are young, but as they get older it will be all trees in a row which will shade out most of your perennials. Just my $.02.

PS - What software did you use to create those images?

Hi GG,
Thanks so much for your ideas. I'm not sure if I should or would want to go all the way to the sidewalk. That would be about 40 feet of bed. I have read that large sweeping curves (which is what the line is in real life - not a squiggly line ha!) were better than straight lines. I am really confused now. Should I make it a rectangular shape? I wonder if you are thinking in the scale that I am working in? I know it all looks so small on my diagram. I wish you could come over for a cup of coffee! Ha! Here is what I think you mean and a general idea (I think you probably mean it with softer ends, a curve along the long edge) of what it would look like at 14 feet. Is this correct?

{{gwi:18906}}

I think if I do something like this, I would need to put more fence in so it wouldn't look weird next to my neighbors yard that is lawn and trees... kind of like I was chopping off their yard? I don't know... it just doesn't feel right... maybe I'm just scared? What do you think?

p.s.

The Magnolia Jane is classified as a shrub and grows to 8-10 ft. The Royal Star is a small tree at 10-12 ft.

p.p.s.

Forgot to answer your question. The software is Photoshop.

I have a small suggestion for beautifying the fence: try some perennials that get bushy over the course of a summer and have some presence into the fall and winter.

My top favorite is perennial sunflower Helianthus "Lemon Queen"--makes an attractive 5-foot bush and in fall is covered with light yellow stars for weeks. Grows anywhere, not invasive although a hearty grower. You can prune it to shape it, too! Buy 2 pots, and in a year you can start dividing them.

Another good one is Boltonia, gets 4-5 feet tall for me and also OK with pruning.

You might think about some tall grasses too.

To keep the design open so that you can visit with neighbors, just plant in clumps and leave a few spots there you can put a few flagstones to stand and talk. Don't trim the stems until the spring, so that you have some nice shapes to look at in the winter--birds will perch on them too.

Good luck with your wonderful sunny yard! So much potential there. Give yourself a pat on the back and try to enjoy the process of gardening. I know how it feels to look at it all and feel just itchy all over. All those gorgeous magazines and books can make me feel so impatient and discontented with my pokey very-not-grand little garden. A good dose of bee-watching and dirt-digging helps me to love my little patch again.

Thank you for all the ideas and encouragement Becky. I do love gardening... and I love my garden... no matter what anyone else thinks! I love it and it doesn't matter how professional it looks for me to love it, but I do want to learn and this site is great for that. It sounds like you have a good idea of what I am going for. I already have some grasses: 6 Miscanthus "Morning Ligth", 3 Miscanthus 'Gracillimus' a Karl Foerster and a Hamelin. they are not so tall yet, but they should really grow this summer. I like the sound of the Helianthus "Lemon Queen". I have Heliopsis 'Summer Sun'... they sound similar. I got it at the end of last year and can't wait to see it get big this year. I've also come across Boltonia in my searches and it is on my maybe wish list. I have Echenacia growing like gangbusters and I like the way it looks in the winter. Here's a picture of one corner when I had it all flowers.

{{gwi:18908}}

I'm trying to incorporate more shrubs and evergreens and get a more structured look this year. That's what I'm here to learn about. Your garden sounds wonderful. Do you have any pictures?

LOL, "wonderful" is not how I'd describe it, although I will say that the neighbors like it. But then in a landscape of lawns and tightly clipped unhappy yews, anything else looks exotic and fascinating. I mostly garden in front because major traffic behind my house makes it as loud as the Indy 500. The front is only as loud as an average highway, so that's some improvement! ;)
In front I have large beds on either side of the lawn where I grow only things that can survive in the vicinity of Norway maples. Everyone on my street has one, they are street trees that you can't cut down. Horrible things. My neighborhood of small cottagy houses was built in the 1930s and the houses are very close together so nothing I could do would ever hide the streetscape--cars, clipped yews, asphalt, concrete, driveways, the neighbors' kids toys, etc. And my neighbor is the town junkman, so his whole yard is basically a junkheap complete with 2 dead cars. But he's a nice guy, we'd never do anything to hurt him. Anyway, despite these constraints, I have after 10 years got lush summer and fall garden of tough-as-nails plants and containers, and I am happy to have a full-sun southside bed where I can grow tomatoes. To give the tiny front yard some structure, I made a semicircle of brick edging that sweeps across the yard in a big slightly assymmetrical arc, to push the eye toward my more attractive southside garden beds and built a little assymmetric brick path to those beds. When money allows I will put up a picket fence, first on the sides and then maybe across the front. My garden would win no design awards, partly because my plantings are constrained by the Norway maple and partly because it's in an unattractive setting. This is my beef with garden mags and books, they always depict gardens at houses whose yards and surroundings would look nice even if no gardening was done. And I sure do envy your wide open sunny spaces, and the more attractive, non-urban cityscape that you have! What I long for is privacy and quiet, the two things you can't get in an urban setting like this. But I do have a nice little front porch that I fill up with plants and wicker chairs in the summer, and I have tomatoes right at the doorstep, and I have bees and flowers so hey, it's OK.

Yes, 40 feet to the sidewalk would be a bit much! Can't tell the scale. The wedge is the right idea, but it could be ONE big curve with some depth (5 feet) at the gate end. You could plant tall shrubs in the background towards your neighbors instead of fence, something to give it a backdrop.

Or you could do one big rectangular bed. I know you said you preferred curves, but there is nothing wrong with rectangular beds, especially when they seem "logical" given the location they are in. I have a 50 foot rectangular bed next to my driveway and no one has ever suggested that it have curvy lines instead. The varied planting is what keeps the rhythm going.

Summer's coming. Enjoy the project!

Hi again GG,

I laid out the curved line yesterday and you were right! I didn't like it at all. It looks better as a rectangle... that will mean widening the existing bed 3-5 feet. I like your curved wedge idea A LOT. I would need even more plants though and it's not in the budget right now, but maybe if I do it right, I can expand into that design some day. Any plant that won't work in the front yard has the entire back yard to go live in. Would you mind sharing how you have your 50 ft. bed planted? Thanks so much for all your ideas. What do you think of this if I make the corner really interesting?

{{gwi:18910}}

beckyed,

I really admire you for rising above all you have to deal with and making the best of what you have. That's what I'm trying to do and you are an inspiration. Keep it up. Maybe we should start a garden mag for the 'not so perfect' setting. Ha!