I always planted directly into the soil, after amending with plenty of compost and manure, and my garden always did very well... until I moved to Gopher Central. Now I do all my veggy gardening in raised beds protected by stainless steel gopher wire because it's the only way to ensure I won't loose plants to the dreaded gophers. I still plant plenty of stuff directly into the ground, I just have to use a gopher cage to protect it or make sure that it's something they don't like to eat - geraniums or oleander, daffodils, anything poisonous they leave alone. Which means most vegetables are not safe.

So for me planting in the ground is not 'awful' it's merely risky. What is awful is spending a lot of time and effort planting and tending let's say, a tomato patch, and then coming out one morning to see most of the plants dead, with no roots. That is a terrible, terrible experience and one I don't wish to have again.

If you live in a place where you can plant directly in the soil, go for it! Enjoy it, and be grateful you don't have varmints eating the roots out from under your crops ;oP

for us because teh existing soil is so poor we opt' for raised beds, does not realy cost us anymore saves lots of digging and amending, with amending that often needs lots of imput of material from other sources, for many can be hard to get it free so bought at a price from the garden shop.

so our gardens are weed free, dig free and moisture wise.

len

Here is a link that might be useful: lens straw bale garden

macky77, I understand where you are coming from. But as stated previously some folks do not have the space or the soil quality (or no soil) to do what we do. Other folks prefer to have their veggie gardens as part of the landscaping, which is understandable for many situations.

Also, gardeners have experimenting in their genes. We love trying new methods or the latest gadget. It does not bother me one bit reading of the successes and failures of the latest method or gadget - I find it interesting. Over the years I myself have tried many new methods and products. After wasting a lot of time and spending a fair amount of money over the years it turns out that I still garden pretty much the way my parents gardened, who themselves pretty much gardened the way my grandparents did. But I must say I have no regrets and had fun experimenting.

Not everyone has the privilege if inheriting a family knowledge base regarding gardening, so they must be the ones who have to learn the best way of gardening that works for them. Hopefully they can pass on what they learn to their next generation. Gardening is as much about how NOT to do things as much as how to do things - that is ultimately what inexperienced gardeners need to learn. Your experiences should be of value regarding this maxim, so do not allow yourself to be shoved aside in discussions where your knowledge applies. Many people think gardening is a lot harder than it actually is and need to be GENTLY and POLITELY coached with helpful information from experienced gardeners.

Another issue might be that there are simply fewer members thus fewer posters who garden in short-season climates like you and I do compared to the warmer climates. Many of the posts regarding methods and products do not apply to us. Still it can be fun to read and one might learn something new that can be applied to individual circumstances.

Lastly, the way you feel might be because you have gardened for so long that it is instinctive. You know how to do what you need to do to get what you want and you simply go about your business. You have succeeded. You have already learned what many gardeners are learning or have not learned yet. Many gardeners need to try new methods or spend the money on new products until they realize that simpler is better or realize there just might not be a better way of doing something.

And you really should be amending your soil, especially if it is wretched clay - the effort will pay off immensely. :-)

Regards,
-Tom

I know I am lucky but I have a big yard and garden a 40ft sq right by the house. Its clay soil but I have helped it along over the 35 yrs I have been using it. Got enough sun last summer after removing trees and grew a wonderful veg garden. Bell peppers..NOT...dont have any luck anymore with those. I buy most of my plants but I do have 6 varieties of tomatoes started on top of the refridgerator(30 plants) I might try peppers in a container.....everything else in the ground.

I have the same bias as macky77. I've been involved with gardening since I was a tot, as evidenced by snapshots in the old family photo album. In my childhood, even staking plants was thought too fussy. We spread a layer of straw and let the tomatoes sprawl on that. Care was limited to weeding, feeding and watering if there was a dry spell. Some crops got dusted with rotenone.

Raised beds, containers and, above all, purchased soil seem weird to me and many of the threads here are about things foreign to my experience. Do people really BUY DIRT ?!?!? Say it isn't so. :-)

You touched a nerve with that one, macky77!

Jim

For some of us, if we sowed directly in the ground, we would have limited production, especially with long-season (150 day) plants. And for people in my type of climate, where the weather can be polar opposites within a couple of days, the seedlings/plants are more likely to not only survive but thrive in controlled conditions as opposed to what Mom Nature throws at us. For instance, we have had almost a week of temps in the upper 60s-low 70s but this weekend, snow is forecast and freezing temps are suppose to set in for a week or so.

Mike

For me, I either start tomatoes inside or buy plants because I want the maters to produce before the midsummer heat.

Direct seeding isn't awful, gardening is what works for you. If you are being pushed out of conversations, and want to be in them, it is your speaking ability not your seeding ability that is the issue :)

Try to grow eggplants in Michigan with direct seeding.

If I understand the original post correctly it refers to growing in open ground vs. raised beds and containers. I don't think the issue is direct seeding vs. starts.

Jim

I sow most of my veggies directly in the ground. I originally began gardening because it's an inexpensive hobby that I could do for next to nothing and even save money with. My first veggie patch was an 8 foot by 8 foot patch of lawn next to my shed that I turned with a shovel. I literally had two garden tools - a small long handled garden shovel and a little hand held garden trowel. I think I spent about $15 on my garden that year, including the seeds and shovels! Of course it wasn't as fancy or decorative as some of the gardens I've seen but it was functional and I still had a lot of fun with it. I can see the advantages of raised beds or growing under grow lights, but I just don't have the funds for all of that, and I don't mind.

Now I do winter sow and spring sow perennials and some of my annuals because the birds like to gobble them when I direct sow them. So I keep them in cheapie foam cups or clear plastic cups until I'm ready to plant. The nice thing with that is if I'm feeling motivated I can sow extra in the cups and give them away. I recently got into seed exchanging and had several varieties of tomato seeds...I really only need two or three tomato plants each year so I just sow extra and give them away. I think my biggest garden expense to date has been the $10 I spent today on some chicken wire! LOL*

Jimster, the OP mentions the word gimmicky, and nowhere does he say anything about raised beds.

I just don't see amending soil as gimmicky. Even the poorest farmers from days of yore knew that improving the soil would improve the crop, and they did not use expensive stuff to make their soil better.

Lucille,

I admit that I read between the lines of the OP. The post is somewhat ambiguous. I don't know if I read correctly. Maybe the OP will clarify.

If I guessed correctly it's a subject dear to my heart. I'm in synch with quilt mommy. I'm pretty sure she never purchased dirt.

Jim

Being in synch is good. Whatever makes you happy is what you should do, in gardening anyway.

Others amend, buy, or even have purchased boxes of worms in their kitchen which they feed for the resulting improvements that they stir into their soil.

I'm a live and let live kind of person. I guess the only gardening stuff that makes me uneasy is some of the insecticides that are having unplanned side effects like downing the bee population, and some kinds of genetic alterations. If they could splice a zucchini with my any of my ex husbands' dna, they could surely destroy the world.

In any case, I'd share a watermelon with you. And check out if your simple soil produced the same kind of watermelon, prolly would.

Folks. I think the "pushed aside" is the main problem, the op
would like for other to treat his style of gardening with a little of respect.
Most of my garden is in beds, but with over 1600 square feet of gardening plot. I some times find it easier to plant something in rows( winter squash, melons & okra). I have the time, space & I mulch the rows.
Some of my friends are shocked, did I break a organic code!
I say do what works for you.
And pay the fads & gimmicky no mind, most will be gone in a season or two anyway.
Speaking of new fabs, I am going to try the plastic sheet water saver. I forget the thread,it is on water saving in the garden.
Only way I know to prove something is try it & see for your self.

I'm betting no one would push me aside. I'm assertive, funny, loud at times (I'm hearing impaired) but if I'm there you'll know it. Gots nothing to do with soil:)

Jim you made me laugh, and you know what? I think I HAVE paid for dirt!!! LOL* I hope I didn't destroy the wonderful thoughts you might have had of me just moments ago! LOL* ;) I laugh though because anytime I have bought dirt it absolutely kills me that I'm spending money on DIRT! LOL*

I do completely understand why people ammend their soils, I just don't have the money to spend on anything fancy and tend to do things the cheap or free way. I think it's a double edged sword - it's amazing all the gadgets and resources available to gardeners these days...there is a solution to just about every problem. At the same time when you're new to gardening it can be overwhelming and almost makes gardening look so complicated and expensive...when in reality you can make what you want of it. I tend to let weeds grow until I can't stand them anymore and rather than putting in an expensive garden fence I'd rather try tin cans on a string. LOL* It just depends on what kind of garden you prefer...and possibly your HOA. LOL* I'm really ok with sharing my garden with critters as long as the little oinkers don't eat it all!

At the end of the day all you really need is sun, dirt, water, and a good shovel!

i'm in favor of amending soil. It's very necessary to the sand I grow in. But I only use free stuff. There are tons of it available for the taking. You don't need to buy it.

I shudder when gardeners run to the garden store for a bottle of stuff to cure every problem. Have you noticed that the price of each bottle is $7.95?

Lucille, let me know when the watermelon is ripe. I'll try to be there.

Jim

I understand what macky77 is saying. There are lots of ways of gardening and if you get a crop which you are satisfied with your method is obviously working. I grow direct into the ground without intentionally building raised beds and it works for me. (I say intentionally because well fed and cultivated beds become slightly elevated anyway.) I use 'amendments' of homemade compost and a load of manure once a year. I put amendements in inverted commas because it's not a term used over here. We just talk about adding compost or manure or whatever without the implication that there is somehow something wrong with the native earth. BTW I'm not sure macky77 said s/he didn't seek to improve the native soil, just that that was the starting point.

I think what sometimes happens is that new gardeners get the impression that they can't garden without a lot expensive preparation. I'm sure it puts a lot of people off because they think growing vegetables is too complicated. Some gardeners like to make it so and some people like to keep things simple, the same as with any activity. Enthusiasts often like to mystify. I have gardened for many years in a different and less technical gardening culture so I'm immune to the complicators. But if I was coming at it fresh and reading some of the posts on these forums as a newbie I think I might possibly be put off trying.

p.s. If the term 'sowing' were used for putting in seeds and the term 'planting' were kept for putting in plants there would be a lot less confusion. I 'sow' seeds both in my porch and directly into the ground. The indoor seedlings then get 'planted' into the ground.

I'm still stuck on the "pushed to the side in gardening conversations because I *gasp* plant directly in the soil" comment.

Seriously?

I'm hoping the OP isn't referring to these forums. I don't really notice that the conversations have a whole lot to do with planting in the ground vs other methods, unless you're doing a lot of hanging out on the container or square foot garden forum--in which case, you're simply in the wrong place. I can't recall any discussions where there's bias toward any particular method of gardening. I thought we spent most of our time talking about veggies and pests. Have I just not been paying attention?

If the OP is referring to personal conversations with friends and family, wow--maybe some new friends? I have raised beds (because my garden is on a slope and I have no choice but to terrace it). My closest garden friend plants hers in ground. We both have things we admire about each others (I love that she can change her layout every year--quite jealous of that). The idea of a gardener "not counting" because they plant in ground? Wow, that's really a foreign concept to me.

LOL! I loved the title of this thread! I love planting in the dirt I have, it's hardly awful! And I grew good things in "poor" clay soil (clay is wonderfully full of nutrients, just hard on the ol' roots at times). Now I grow good things on sandy loam. I tried a raised bed once... it was way more finnicky than the ground, so I stopped using it, put the extra soil into my main bed.

Having said that, I guess everyone has their reasons for doing things the way they do them. Some make sense to me, others don't. But live and let live. Different strokes for different folks. To each his own. Chacun son gout. What ever blows one's hair back... Oh, too many of those? Sorry. But I will be keeping an eye out for those rude, pushy raised-bed gardeners. ;) (Joking, I know that doesn't always come across when typing...)

I do it both ways, in raised beds (planter boxes) and in the ground. I think you have to go with what works best for you. Last year I grew one variety of pole beans in a half barrel and some bush beans in hanging baskets with good results. I only have a small garden compared to most of you so I have to be inventive, so far so good.
I also mix veggies in my flower borders, wherever there's bare earth. Being it's only the two of us at home, I grow enough for us and some to share.
I think it comes down to what you have to work with, how good your back is and go from there.

Annette

I certainly didn't intend to strike such a nerve, Jim! ;)

It took a good portion of the thread, but finally a few people clued in to what I was trying to say. If a handful of posters don't mind me quoting them, they were much more eloquent than I could be in explanation.

jolj: "Folks. I think the "pushed aside" is the main problem, the op would like for other to treat his style of gardening with a little of respect."

quilt mommy: "I do completely understand why people amend their soils, I just don't have the money to spend on anything fancy and tend to do things the cheap or free way. I think it's a double edged sword - it's amazing all the gadgets and resources available to gardeners these days...there is a solution to just about every problem. At the same time when you're new to gardening it can be overwhelming and almost makes gardening look so complicated and expensive...when in reality you can make what you want of it... At the end of the day all you really need is sun, dirt, water, and a good shovel!"

flora uk: "We just talk about adding compost or manure or whatever without the implication that there is somehow something wrong with the native earth. BTW I'm not sure macky77 said s/he didn't seek to improve the native soil, just that that was the starting point. (Correct!)

"I think what sometimes happens is that new gardeners get the impression that they can't garden without a lot expensive preparation. I'm sure it puts a lot of people off because they think growing vegetables is too complicated. Some gardeners like to make it so and some people like to keep things simple, the same as with any activity. Enthusiasts often like to mystify. I have gardened for many years in a different and less technical gardening culture so I'm immune to the complicators. But if I was coming at it fresh and reading some of the posts on these forums as a newbie I think I might possibly be put off trying."

My OP has been brewing for a while, but a post by an online friend on a completely different site was the straw for me yesterday. (I'll be more specific here since I've recently been accused of being too vague when I post.) She's brand new to gardening, had been asking advice of the group for a short time and had posted a few photos of her garden area. She had been prompted to start a mixed in-the-bag and container garden on the recommendation of a family member who told her it was the "easiest way to garden." When asked what her backyard soil was like, she said she had no idea because she had never dug into it to find out. From the photos, the yard is level and the garden has been situated in the middle of a large, sunny area of lawn that looks to be growing nicely and weed free. Her soil bags were overcrowded and (by her own admission) overwatered. The containers, especially that for a non-dwarf blueberry, were far too small. She was overwhelmed, overspent and fretting over matters of little consequence while completely missing some very basics. In an effort to make life so much easier for her, I suggested thinning the crowded areas and putting as much as possible in the ground - especially the berry bushes, amending the soil if that was necessary (she had no idea the pH of her soil). My suggestions were skipped over in favour of discussions of various things she could buy to remedy the situation. A couple of days later, she starts a thread asking if anyone else got depressed over their gardens. She was in a right state because of how much money she had thrown into her first gardening attempt and it didn't look like it was ever going to produce anything. She was overwhelmed and reading too many differing opinions without the background knowledge of the basics and why gardening methods change based on soil, climate, micro-climate, etc.

And this isn't a unique case. I read so many posts and talk with people who think high-input gardening is the ONLY way to grow anything. If their soil doesn't have the consistency of Mel's Mix or some other concoction you buy at the garden store, then it's so often assumed - no, not everyone actually considers their native soil properly - that nothing will grow in it. There are situations where inputs are necessary and I completely understand that. If you thought I was attacking all forms of modern gadgets and techniques (by reading something between the lines that wasn't there), then you were grossly mistaken.

I just wish in-ground gardening enjoyed the same status as so many of the intensive methods do these days. That's all.

I think if you stick here on the veggie forum, you'll find that few of us regard in-ground gardening to any less extent than raised beds or containers. I think most of us here do a combination of all. It's one of the reasons I like this site in general. Discussions get sectioned off by area of interest, so if I don't want to hear from a bunch of Mel's Mix enthusiasts, I can stay away from the Square Foot Gardening forum. (I prefer this one because I think we're more generalists vs fanatics, if that makes any sense at all.)

But my impression from your story is that your friend did what I see some people here do (and it annoys me, I'll admit): They want to start a garden without any prior experience at all. But they can't be bothered to buy a book, or check one out from the library, or talk in person to a nursery expert or friend who gardens. Instead, their first stop is the internet where they expect a group of gardening enthusiasts to teach them EVERYTHING from the ground up. IMO, that's why she failed.

These forums are great help for the occasional question, but really, this is a forum of diverse people who are really into gardening, we all like to promote what works for us, and we like to have discussions about the various different options. We aren't holding Master Gardener workshops intended to teach people with zero experience how to grow a successful garden. (At least, I don't think so!)

I'm sorry your friend completely disregarded your advice. Sounds like ignoring it didn't serve her well, and I if I were you, I'd personally have a hard time not spouting off with, 'I told you so'. But I sure hope you aren't getting the impression from gardeners in general that there's a "superior" way to garden. Anyone who comes off like that is a jack-a$$, IMO.

Having read "the rest of the story", I understand what you're talking about with the people who think they HAVE to get all this stuff going to be able to get ANYTHING out of their gardens... I used to work in a garden center and met that sort of thinking a lot. I do see it around the web at times too. And it always strikes me as funny, because I wonder what people think their grandparents and great grandparents did about food back before the advent of mass-production and refrigeration. Food was and still is grown all over the world in all sorts of soils. Right in the ground.

Maybe your friend will remember your thoughts about how to improve her garden in the future, since this other stuff doesn't sound like it is working out. Sometimes when people have already committed to a method they have a hard time thinking about changing away from it even if it doesn't seem to work for them.

My gardening philosophy can be summed up as "You can't MAKE a plant grow, you can only ALLOW it to grow". Trying to make things grow usually leads to failure and frustration.

Jim

Well, I'm with Mackey77, one year I tried container gardening and hated it,and things just didn't do well, good thing I also had planted in the ground. I've always thought part of the reason for gardening was to save on your food bill. If a person thinks they have to go out and spend hundreds of dollars on raised bed stuff and "Mel's Mix" materials, then their food bill is sky high at least for a year or two. So much better to work with the soil in the ground, ammending it over the years. If you raise chickens or rabbits too you will have free ammendments.

Well if you think trying to get newbies to heed your words on a forum is frustrating, you should try getting them to do it face to face. They coo and ah over my bed and then toss my suggestions aside. I keep telling them that plants know how to grow; we just have to fix what's broke and get out of their way.

Oh well! Behind every great gardener are alot of dead plants. They will learn or go on to something else.

If I had no dirt to garden in, I would buy some and grow stuff in a container because love to see stuff grow. However, I've always found some dirt to garden in, even when I was a young guy renting an apartment.

Jim

I don't know if you are talking about direct sowing or growing in pots all year, but I do know this, no way a person can only garden in pots. Some plants just won't do well in pots and some are just to spacy like pumpkins for example. I never went a year without growing in ground and I direct sow most of the times with this year being an exception. I agree with Macky.

I do both in the ground, and container gardening. My experience may be different than others, but I have tried growing tomatoes both in ground and in self watering containers. They do so much better for me when grown in the ground. Same varieties grown both ways and in ground gives a greater harvest and better tasting tomatoes. (Disclaimer: I have been container gardening for several years with good success on most attempts, and I believe I have learned enough on the Container Gardening Forum to feel confident that I handle Tomatoes in containers the "right" way. And I admit "taste" of tomatoes is personal, I'm not doubting or questioning others experience with growing tomatoes in containers.)

Sometimes I dream of having enough space to have an old fashioned garden like my Mom and Dad had. But our small lot, and mature trees limit the in-ground gardening that I can do.

I would love to plant in the ground, but I have a small urban backyard with a huge silver maple in the middle of it. I can't dig into the soil without hitting a big tree root. If the tree ever comes down, I'm turning most of it into a vegetable garden, but in the meantime raised beds are so much easier.

you live and learn....
I grew up in a different part of world. Our soil was (still is ) volcanic, quite enriched with minerals. Our "fertilizer" means buying sheep manure and mixed on the ground before the season starts or place very little under the plants (your parent explain to you it will burn the plant if it is too much) If the soil has been used such a long time or hasn't been used for years we would just go and purchase "pine forest soil" (equivalent to humus). you leave the water hose on for a while and move it to the different part of the garden (water comes from the mountain for free. Ants are sacred (because those are so harmless and so hardworking) and you can play with them by letting them climb on your hands. If you asked me something about gardening my advices would be based on those experiences.

I moved to houston and learned over the years that everything is different! I dug a little area in the backyard to plant some stuff. Most of them did very poorly. Aggressive St. Augustine grasses took over some garden patches. I have learned that ants bite and leave you with a very nasty bite. Hard clay is impossible to till, there are not many places you can get sheep manure, there is no definition of "one tractor full forest soil" etc. You PAY for the water and it is city water with chlorine!

Eventually I started with one raised bed and grew giant tomatoes. I purchased "vegetable garden mix" from Lowes and mixed with composted manure ;voila! wonderful tomatoes. They stop producing around mid June and I tought " maybe they are big in size but small in production. It must be an American thing.

After 10 years in U.S, several attempt to being a Gardner, We have let one Gardner to take care of the soil for the new raised beds and the result: enriched top soil is not for medium growing and soil needs to be replaced! With what? Exactly what we were using years and years ago in the other side of the world with new definition:

Potting soil (70% forest material, nitrogen enrichment etc...) duh! read the label dumb lady! Isn't it similar to the "forest soil"
Composted cow manure (isn't that the same thing placing manure in earlier in the soil) so there is not only good but easier to handle manure exist

some peat most (I still have no clue what it is but I add 5% anyway since it makes the soil softer)

Since taste comes first (at least for me ) I stop right there! no more addition. If it is not growing in there It is not meant to be for me. Tomato production stops around June not because those are American plants because of Houston HEAT.

I just wanted to tell you what my story is. Overall everyone has a different experience. Unless you are with someone next door who is doing the most sustainable gardening for years you will make a lot of mistake and get a lot of different opinion from different experience.

Spending money on gardening : Everyone spends their money one way or another. Some buy clothes, some eat outside, some upgrade their car, some does this some does that. SOme people see it a lot of money spend on hobby, luxury when it comes to gardening some like me think " I don't do this and that and gardening is my only hobby" I would love to purchase a block of land in the city and use it as a community garden with the community around but I cant. Since I can afford 4 raised bed and good soil in it, I will (have done already) do that.

Too bad our old friend from Texas, Bill "Gonefishin" isn't around to talk about this. Does anyone remember the pictures of his garden?

Jim

Macky- I think our growing situations are similar, but I have horses, so lots of nice fertilizer available to break up that clay a bit :)

I don't do row covers or cold frames or any of the other things that would probably give me a longer growing season. Instead, I'm trying to work with what grows well in my area.

For all those, who enjoy all the raised beds and extra days with the row covers, cold frames, etc. that's great, but it just doesn't work, in my situation.

I think all different types of gardening have a lot to offer and it's important for new gardeners to find out what works best for them. That being said, I don't think anyone should be pushed aside, just for having a different approach.

I spend a little. Fabric mulch cover, this year, as an experiment, along with more traditional muches. Seeds. Plants. New lumber for perimeters, after 20 plus years it needed redone.

Of course, were we to fantasy on wealth spent on gardens, how about a cute yardboy to do the heavy work, and make nourishing refreshments served in hollowed out pineapples.
And one of those deals I saw at the garden store with raised decks, and bbq. Of course I have a porch and a 700 lb iron bbq, but my porch doesn't look like a zine cover. Zine covers are spendy.

Image is everything. If you are talking to a group of ladies, talking about planting in clay may garner less attention than speedos and pineapple.
The solution is not to turn your back on what you love, just put a spin on it, and speak up. If you truly think how you garden is good, chances are others will as well. Heck, you managed to get plenty of attention to your point of view in this thread.

I grew up on a farm. My grandparents were quite the gardeners. In their case the garden was the same spot I suspect that is gradually decreased in fertility on the north side which was higher ground.

My folks did differently. My dad would lay off a huge "truck patch" with the corn planter in a corner of a field which got rotated around. The soil was worked up with a farm disk.

I started my gardens with mechanical equipment...fall plow and spring disking and then rush out there to plant nearly everything at once. I kinda wised up and quit disking and started using a small tiller and planting just certain rows or sections at a time. I did this for many years without adding back enough organic inputs though things always produced well because the soil was good to begin with.

Finally I began to add more inputs and amended the soil more and more. When I retired, this was my main hobby as I had always loved growing things...even as a child.

Now I have large areas of raised beds...no fancy bordering and lots of unraised areas. Yes, I have spent some money [which I have been blessed to have] and enjoy seeing how healthy me and my plants can become.

Yes, Jimster, I remember Bill.