I went to visit a homeopathic doctor once. I got a bit impatient when he started asking about my diet and other details when what I wanted was a cure for my ailment. I think there is a similarity between this doctors approach and the question you are asking. When I protested, the doctor told me that a homeopath treats the whole patient and not just the current symptoms. It is common for a home owner to think like me towards this doctor: an experienced designer sees a bigger picture. For instance: a tree dies and a home owner asks, what can I replace it with but a designer might have a broader outlook and consider other alternatives. When this home owners approach goes seriously wrong there is no unity in the result.

Well, I think you have a point. There is definitely a difference between designing for yourself vs for someone else (speaking more as an architect here for the second part, since I haven't designed anyone else's home garden). On the one hand, when I am working for someone else, I have a limited amount of time in the space and talking to the client. There is no way I can absorb every single nuance of the site and the client's wishes in the amount of time they are willing to pay for! Otoh, when it is my own home, I am there every day and can obsess over every last detail, as well as experiencing it over every possible situation (time of year, day, weather, etc). So, yes, anything I do for myself is going to have a more personal feel, and be very specifically for that space.

Otoh, if it isn't my own home, it's easier for me to focus on the big picture than some of the details. And since I don't have the emotional attachment, I can imagine things I wouldn't consider otherwise. Tho of course, I can get attached to my own proposed designs!

I also kwym about wanting to fit everything in one space. In planning my new yard, I've had a whole bunch of different types of gardens that I want to incorporate, and have been trying to find ways to integrate them in a coherent whole. Tho I think I am being relatively disciplined as far as trying to keep with the style of the house, and not going completely nuts. ;) More a matter of different moods and color schemes in different areas of the garden.

Different people bring different things to the table, be they LD's, LA's, or home owners. We all tick differently as individuals which makes us gain differently through similar experiences. We all have habits in how we think and what is important to us. All you have to do to see this is visit a bookstore or library. You will see many different books by seasoned designers at every level. Each gives a perspective based on his/her own way of thinking. Each book is different, filled with different biases, different rules, different do's, and different don'ts. We are all individuals and will always remain so. Some like to believe theirs is the right way and all others are flawed. Some believe that they do their thing and may admire other's ways, but don't care to follow. And some believe that they must try to do everything.

Its just like the greater population - a collection of individuals.

A homeowner only has one canvas to create their work of art on. This may result in gazebos, bridges and waterfalls on a 50x100 lot. Or it could be Giverny.
A designer has many canvases but the client injects their own desires/opinions on the project.
A true artist no matter what field brings more to a project than anyone who just knows their subject very well (as in a homeowner who has intimate knowledge of their yard). The greatest results are the synergy between a gifted artist and a sympathetic client who wants the best results within the confines of budget and given landscape.

Ink- Yep, guilty as charged. Even though I know betterthere have to be some benefits from hours of forum dawdlingI know better in my head, but in practice it's hard not to get overly focused on one thing, forgetting its relationships to the whole. I call this effect the Nose-of-the-Pekinese Syndrome. The intense focus on one spot in the yard is like someone with a huge canvas on which to work. For some (homeowners with established landscape design) the canvas is already filled. But maybe there's that sense that something is not quite right. Something needs to be fixedThese are the folks seeking to renovate their "paintings".

They come to the forum and ask, "Do you like the way I painted a pekinese's nose on my painting?" A few are at least aware that a small dog might be called for in the picture. Others paint away, carefully putting a pekinese nose right in the midddle of a painting of a bowl of fruit. Others re-paint a nose on the dog in their picture, but they ought to be asking themselves if a brand new canvas would be a better starting point.

Then there are the blank canvas folks. Their new homes have front yards they describe as "blank slates". In the midst of the emptiness they paint the nose of a pekinese. But they haven't yet asked themselves "what's going to happen in my painting?" Is there a young girl in the foreground looking down coquettishly to the pup in her lap while a lovestruck swain leans against a tree looking on? Is the little pekinese a snarling beast preparing to leap? Is the setting a chinese dynastic piece? Should there be a dog in the picture at all or is it a still life of apples and artichokes?

Today is my birthday. Oh, I know. My page says January 1, but that ain't so. I mention it here on the chance that you'll forgive the overly played dog metaphor. It's the slice of cake and glass of wine that's doing it! Oh, and don't ask how tough a week I'm heading intojust let the wine flow!

Irene- What you're saying gives flesh and bones to what I was trying to get at. I like what you said about emotional distance and then you reveal the twist that you can get attached to your own ideas. I think that's a fascinating aspect of designers and artists. There is all this work that doesn't necessarily leave the drafting board. I think of all the tens of thousands of sketches and detailed designs Da Vinci created but never built. Part of maturing, I suppose, and keeping the creative juices flowing.

Laag- I think you hit the flaw in my post. I ended up suggesting rather gross generalities. Your point is well taken that individuality and specifics of circumstances play a significant role in the different ways homeowners think about their outdoor projects and the different personalities, skills and experiences the designers bring to their work. I think somewhere in that long post that was recently resurrected you commented on how little is known of posters when they post about their landscape issues. They may be dealing with constraints that have led them to paint that pekinese's nose and it may be the "best" answer given the specific circumstances.

Naplesgardener- I like your synergy image. Kind of reminds me of Da Vinci again and his like, whose work was geared toward well-heeled patrons. Quite the dance to keep the art in the practice while creating the best design for the application and satisfying the person with the cash.

I'm still struck by the dreams that people try to fulfill on their single canvases.

Wellspring

I thought of this again when visiting friends yesterday. They'd worked with a LD friend (who I don't know) to design and build a patio, lawn & borders in their small urban backyard. (Before they moved in, the yard had resembled a scrapheap - seriously!) They had wanted space for their toddler to run around and play, but their friend apparently was so used to people wanting mainly gardens to look at, that while he drew a large-ish green space, he then couldn't get himself to build (?) it that large! So, my friends told me they figured they'd just let the grass spread a bit more (since I got the feeling they hadn't paid for the labor involved).

The connection being the difficulty of some designers letting go... ;)

I have to say the "Nose-of-the-Pekingese Syndrome" is perhaps the most bizarre analogy I have read for a while, isn't the Pekingese particular because it doesn't have a nose? Yet I am prepared to confess that I may have missed the subtlety, were you, by any chance partying and playing 'pin the tail on the donkey' earlier? Happy birthday BTW (who's counting? not me).
Anecdote alert!: I had a call today from a lady with a heat exchanger problem, she wanted to know if it was OK to plant cedars to hide it, now there's a dog we could talk about. I listened while she talked, I asked the odd question she expanded. To cut a long story short; she needed a new heat exchanger, a machine that comes in an ugly box and makes a whirring sound and needs to be located outside so as to exchange the air inside the house with that outside and either cool it or heat it. She asked "The Guys" to locate the 'Helicopter in a box' as far away from the patio as possible as she didn't want to see it or hear it when relaxing on the patio. She then went out. When she came back the heat exchanger was a long way away from the patio, in fact it was on the front corner of the house. Now she wants to redesign her garden around it, at least an 800 pound gorilla has legs.

Of corse they have noses! How could they breathe if they didn't have noses? O.k. so they are squished up into their brain cavities, but they do have themand they are sort of hard to paint. Oh, all right, maybe I meant chihuahua? Dachshund? Miniature greyhound?

Anyway, for an example of someone who really, really wants to paint a pekingnese nose check the Design Challenge thread. It also has its 800 pound gorilla, which definitely makes for an interesting composition.

And, Ink, you know I never play games in the dark. Those games with blindfolds give me such an unfair advantage. But, yep, I did enjoy my little birthday party with my boys--husband and 15 y.o. son. The boy gave me dirt for my birthday and labor on a backyard project. He's learning! Nothing well designed, mind you, but then we all have our pekingnese noses somewhere in the landscape.

Wellspring

Grand dogs, those Pekingese. I never seen one that you could convince it wasn't 3 feet tall and weighed in at 150 pounds, especially when facing another dog that *is* three feet tall and tips the scale at 150; there's just an awful lot of doggy attitude down there backing up that smushed in nose. ;^)

Many happy returns of the day Wellspring. Your posts are one of the reasons I linger on this forum.

Happy Birthday, Wellspring!

I probably said on the Design Challenge thread what I should have said here. In your own yard, you choose your constraints and your noses. It is everyone's right to have a butt-ugly yard. But you cannot impose that on someone else when you are a designer.

Sorry, too late for truly profound thoughts.

I looked at my canvas yesterday and the garden gods had painted deer on it. Therein lies added challenge and constraint to design.

I'm glad I found this thread as it is tethered to the "Design Challenge" thread I started. Here seems like a good place to discuss the more general issue then in my thread.

Your 'pekingese's nose" analogy is a good one. However, if the painter is happy/resigned to having a nose in the middle of a painting of a bowl of fruit and just wants to know how to make the best nose possible, then, can't that question be answered? It's different from the painter saying, "how can I make this nose flow with the bowls of fruit" which may not be possible without looking at the whole picture.

(Begin Rant)In many contexts, in public internet forums, I find people who have excellent input and expertise are unable to solve the issue with the constraints given and instead must try and solve different issues that the OP either doesn't have a problem with or is resigned to live with. Granted, you may have a brilliant solution so they don't have to live with the greater issue, but if it's not really bothering the OP, then the OP probably doesn't care for it's solution.(End Rant)

Does the expression "can't see the wood for trees" ring a bell? This is often the case with our own gardens and a fresh pair of eyes (or an intuitive blind person) can open up possibilities we would never have thought of. When someone asks a question that appears to come from a limited perspective I think it entirely appropriate to offer suggestions that could open other possibilities. If, in spite of this, the questioner wants what they want then nothing has been lost. If this happens in the real world and a client insists that you design and build something that you know to be unworkable or just plain ugly then you get to chose whether to put your name on it or not. You can put your dogs nose wherever you want but it will look best and work best if it at the front end on the face.

In the context of forums, there are forums that deal exclusively with how to paint dog noses. There are often forums that deal exclusively with how to paint pekinese noses. Given that this forum is about painting entire pictures, people generally tend to talk about the entire picture.

In my backyard, I have two rough squares of perennial garden. Because of sun issues, there is a third, empty square between them. For years now, we've understood the necessity of removing the overgrown white pines that provide much of the shade for the third square. For most of that time, I was planning what things I might put there - a formal water feature, a Mondrian style annual garden, another perennial garden, the list is fairly endless. At this point, though, I'm leaning towards leaving it the way it is. Though I am seriously in hunt of an entire pekinese - a fairly large modern sculpture to go at one end.