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luvncannin

Round 2

luvncannin
12 years ago

I have been studying gardening for a long time and found this site to be the most helpful and friendly site.

I had my first real garden all my own,with my sons help, last year. It was beautiful and I planned and dreamed of the harvest. And the drought...I harvested 12 baby potatoes and some herbs .Well this year I want to try again. I have a new place with an existing bed that has been dormant 2 years. I have many questions but will start with a few.

Considering a possible drought if I can afford it would a drip system be the best way to go?

And is 30 x 100 enough room for canning [the reason I want to garden] eating for 2 and giving? I can make it bigger.

I want to plant the basics this year and advance when I have a successful garden.

Thank you all in advance for your help and knowledge,

Luvncannin

Comments (18)

  • User
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I appreciate your optimism, after last year's horrendous growing conditions.

    I use a bed and path system, cultivated by hand. No rows and furrows and the beds are ground level, not raised

    I water with soaker hoses, but they are also kind of pricey. If I had the money, a well that didn't pump so much sand, and liked fiddling with technology better, I would do drip. It works great on local cotton crops. My wife is going to make me a watering system using pvc for some of my beds.

    The only crops we can are tomatoes (mostly for salsa), cucumbers, beets, and okra for pickles. We also freeze some sweet peppers.

    For tomatoes, 6 Roma-type tomatoes kept us (2 of us over 60) in fresh tomatoes from July until November, yielded over 50 quarts of salsa, and some fresh tomatoes to give away. We also had 6 slicer types that yielded a few tomatoes in early July and even fewer in the fall. Since, we're making salsa we go for hybrids with heat resistance and a top-notch disease resistance package, including Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus which can wipe us out some years. This year-9 Roma-type and 2 slicers. We space the plants 4 feet apart in concrete reinforcing wire cages, wrap with row cover until they outgrow the cages around July 1 or the cover is ripped to shreds by the wind. The bed is 6 feet wide.

    Cucumbers-4 hills spaced 4 feet apart in a 6 foot wide bed produced over 30 quarts of pickles. We've grown Homemade Pickles and National Pickling. I think I like the latter a little better. I also like training the vines on a cattle panel trellis better than sprawling. I don't miss so many cucumbers.

    Okras-6 plants or so (2' spacing in 4; wide bed) will provide plenty for fresh eating and and plenty of okra pickles.

    Beets-we plant a 10' row in spring and fall for pickles and usually get enough for 6 or 8 pints in each season.

    The Arizona Masters Gardener Manual (online), the New Mexico State University site, and Texas A&M site all have good recommendations about amounts to plant.

    Sorry for being so long-winded, but we are kind of "neighbors"=Lubbock area,.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    30 x 100 is probably enough for 2 people to eat from quite well all year, yes, but that is a very large space for a new gardener to manage alone. Drip irrigation is definitely the way to go if you are paying for water and in an environment with high evaporation rates. It should be installed under mulch to conserve as much as possible.

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  • luvncannin
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you so much for the help. The conditions were not "normal" here last summer from what the local gardeners say.It was my first year in the panhandle in 10 years. The heat and the wind did exactly what you said ...high evaporation rate...
    Last year I had a bed 20x80 and several small beds. I started all of them from scratch and only had a hoe and a shovel. This year I have access to a tiller so it should be a little easier to get started. I also have free city water so I wont be spending 80-100 on water every month.I found out I love being in the garden as much as being in the kitchen. Which is why I want lots of stuff to can. I have read The Joy of Gardening at least 10 times the last year and just got Square foot gardening to read. I have started a compost and have access to lots of free manure. How long does that have to dry?
    Also do the romas can well? I dont eat raw tomatoes but love them cooked any which way.
    And what type of mulch do you use? I have read so many different ideas that it gets overwhelming.Thank you
    Luvncannin

  • stuffradio
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I know Texas is prone to droughts. If possible, I'd get rain barrels to collect as much water as I could, so when it rains, you get something out of it to water with.

  • User
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, it was an unprecedented year in terms of both heat and drought.

    Romas are a great tomato for canning and processing. They are very meaty and frequently all they need is a hot water scalding to remove their skin, since many are almost seedless.

    I mulch my summer vegeables in mid-June after the soil is completely warm with clean (no seeds), freshly cut prairie hay.

  • tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi. I live along the I-40 corridor in New Mexico. Our drought was not as bad as yours but I fight the wind every single spring. To help protect new transplants from the wind we will make cloches out of milk jugs. If it is a plant that likes cooler weather, I cut both the bottom and top off and secure it into the ground using 2 bamboo skewers poked through the plastic and into the ground. Mounding soil around the outside base helps too. If it is a plant that needs more warmth (like peppers, eggplants, etc), I just cut off the bottom, and take the cap off for some ventilation, securing to the ground as above. This also gives some protection if there is a late frost. We do not drink much milk so I asked some other families if they would save them for me and now have a decent collection awaiting my pleasure.

    I would skip drip irrigation until you are familiar with how you are going to set up the space. Soaker hoses under mulch will help with water conversation and they are easier to adjust the positioning of. My cheapie mulch is to try and clip enough dry grass and when that runs out, I will probably purchase straw this year.

  • luvncannin
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you all. It seems like a daunting task to start all over but I have always wanted to farm and this is a step towards that. I learned so many things that did NOT work last year so I feel I have an advantage this year. I have access to unlimited free grass clippings [as long as it grows this year] and empty water jugs.
    I am also curious about winter sowing vs direct sowing. I have never had any luck in the past with sowing inside and hardening off.
    @plainsman50 Do you direct sow or use plants for this area? the recommendation for flat no furrow garden is a tip I definately will use. seems everthing I had on a slight hill got beat to death. I have some seed pkg left from last year I am going to put out but for tomatoes and peppers maybe plants this year? Thanks for the ideas.
    luvncannin

  • User
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I direct sow everything, but tomatoes, peppers, and eggplant. I have direct sown tomatoes and peppers in May in the past, but I don't get a crop until late August/September. I start my tomatoes and sweet peppers indoors around March 7. Once they emerge, the tomatoes and peppers live in a protected, outdoor, south facing cold frame as long as temps are above 40 for tomatoes and 50 for peppers. In mid-April. I buy the very few seedlings of hot peppers and eggplants I need from one of the two greenhouses in Lubbock that grow their own. I pot them up and place them in the frame until time to transplant.

    Tishtoshnm is on the money about wind protection. For my warm season plants (tomatoes, eggplants, peppers, newly emerged squash and cucumbers), I use black plastic 3 to 5 gallon nursery pots with the bottoms removed. For cool season crops and warm season crops in rows like beans, I rely on the winter annual grass that I let grow in the paths to a height 8 to 12 inches to provide a wind break of sorts at ground level. It all looks pretty junky, but it works.

    For direct sowing, experiment with soaking seeds ahead of planting or even pre-sprouting in damp paper towels to see if that works better. Try to plant when you see a thunderstorm on the way. If it doesn't rain after planting, don't be afraid to water things up. Early in the season when plant water use is low or trying to get seeds to emerge, I use a watering can, a lot, to save water.

  • luvncannin
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Everything I had died in August. I really hoped I could harvest most of my stuff before then. I believe I will have to have a wind barrier of sorts and I really am glad for these ideas. Maybe I could tie something to the fence, and the water jugs with stakes would be great too. Also is there a good place in Lubbock to buy seeds and plants or do y'all order? I normally go to Amarillo but either way its an hour and a half. Thank you
    luvncannin

  • defrost49
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm a NH gardener so I'm not familiar with the kind of drought you have. But 30 x 100 sounds huge. There are 2 of us plus I give some away but don't do a lot of canning.
    First, I liked Square Foot Gardening and still use that kind of concept but I'm finding it easiest to start new beds using the lasagna method. You have grass and manure, that's great! I do different layers plus old chopped up leaves but you start with a layer of wet newspapers, maybe 6 sheets. I don't till and have a thick layer of sod (old meadow) so tilling was too much work. Build up the pile about 18 inches. It will sink down as things compost. I have lots of earthworms. There is so much matter that will hold water that I think it will help you conserve moisture in your beds. Of course, I still have to water esp when seeds are germinating.

    I think I plant about 12 tomato plants. Cherry tomatoes for my salads and fun picking for our grandchildren, regular tomatoes which I prefer to freeze and the roma type. I especially like Amish Paste which is a huge meaty tomato. I like to roast these in the oven and then freeze. I have a recipe for curried cherry tomatoes that ends up like chili sauce or cocktail sauce for shrimp. I use it as a spread on my breakfast sandwiches.

    Most of my beds are 12' long. I have some wide paths so I have room for my cart that stay as grass. In the beds where I decide to make a walking path, I put down wet newspapers and top with grass clippings. I think this helps hold moisture. If I change my planting areas, I just shovel the old newspaper (that is now disintegrated) and clippings onto the bed. Each spring I put down a 2" layer of good composted manure/bed shavings that I can get cheap.

    Because the beds are only 12' long, I can set my sprinkler on so it doesn't move much, just waters the bed but I hope to get something better this year.

    What I use for pea fence might be helpful for you as a windbreak. It's some concrete reinforcing panels leftover from a construction project. My husband hammers steel posts into the ground and then tie the panels to the posts with zip ties. If you had something growing on them like pole beans, would that help break the wind or would the beans just blow down? I wonder if you could use some kind of garden fabric or burlap.

    Two 12' rows of beets were almost too much. We ate some and gave a lot away. I thought we would thin it down eating greens but we were eating other things.

    We can keep up with one row of bush beans so I try to plant other rows two weeks apart so the beans aren't all coming in at once. I don't can beans but that might change.

    Good luck to you. Hope this year you get more rain.

  • User
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've done/do about everything for seeds from save my own to buy from bulk containers at a local feed store or closeouts for a dime at the local grocery store in the nearby small town (pop. 1, 600) to pay $5.00 plus $5.00 more for shipping for a package of onion seeds I really wanted. I buy mostly mail order/online; there are lots of great companies out there and great seeds==far more than I have room to plant or money to buy.

    If you're coming to Lubbock to shop, Ivey Gardens and Gardener's Outlet grow their own vegetable plants. They are only small seedlings, but inexpensive-$2.00 for a four pack or 50c each, last year. Less than a package of seeds; great if you only need a few plants. However, you have to get there early in the season to get the best variety/quality.

    We sometimes go up to Neal Hinders' Canyon's Edge Plants in Canyon. Although he specializes is drought tolerant perennials, he ususally has some vegetable plants and herbs, too,

  • luvncannin
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We just have to have more rain this year. From march 15 until all my stuff died in Aug. we never had one drop. It is going to be a better year.I want to grow[and harvest]
    tomatoes
    yellow and zuccini squash
    beets
    collard greens
    turnip greens
    leaf lettuce
    popcorn
    pumpkins
    cucmber
    beans for drying
    cabbage
    peppers
    onions
    leeks
    garlic
    chives
    radishes
    dill
    cilantro
    I will probably set up an herb garlic area seperate from the main bed. I am not going to plant a bunch of everything. I just want to have a nice variety, especially since produce is hard to come by unless I drive an hour to get it. I may not even fill up the whole 30 x 100 area. does it sound like too much? i am off in the summer so I can spend as much time as I need to after June 1st. sometimes it sounds crazy big but then I think I need more!
    luvncannin
    Thank you for all your input every comment helps me in my plans.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's not too big an area if you design it to be efficient. You mention a tiller - don't underestimate how much it's going to make things easier. The first pass on new ground is heavy going. If you are starting a garden from scratch, make a few passes over the same spot till you get a good bed started, then move it over 1/3 to 1/2 the width of the tines on all your next passes - don't try to take too big of a bite. If you start to get tired, stop. Working with a tiller when you're tired is dangerous, and you won't be able to do it (or much else) the next day if you push yourself too hard. Wear good sturdy shoes, (steel toed boots are best), work gloves to dampen the vibration, and hearing protection. If you do a good job tilling the first time, it will make your gardening easier, but it is definitely not much less strenuous the first time than digging. That means not trying to do too much in any one day, and that's a good policy in any garden task, including when you harvest.

    You have some crops that aren't great for storage - lettuce and radishes. When you plan your garden beds, a short segment of radishes should be planted every week - they would make a nice break between other crops - until hot weather sets in, and then put them away until fall. Do the same with your lettuce; plant enough to last you for the week, (probably 5-6 heads, or a two foot section if you do wide rows, would be plenty) and when the heat comes give them a break till fall as well. For tomatoes, any paste tomato will be better for canning - Roma is a good choice, because it tends to set fruit in a short time frame, so you will have a good quantity to make canning efficient, but try to plan it so you aren't canning all day in the middle of August. Plant a good amount of tomatoes, and two weeks later start some more. That way you won't have to do everything on the same day. Cilantro will bolt quickly, so that too you will want to plant weekly. Beets and cabbage you can probably grow year round, but if your schedule picks up again in fall, plant a few each week, then in the fall plant large crops to harvest and store. Cucumbers are another crop to plant small sections of for summer and a larger one for processing towards fall. If you're planning to make dill pickles, plan to harvest the cukes and dill at the same time, and try to keep the cucumbers from getting too big - you get more in the jar that way. Plan on putting in lots of beans - they are easy to plant, easy to store, and good for the soil. It is better to plant beans than leave any ground that you till unplanted. Pumpkins like a lot of room, so put them off to one side. It's good to buy a few plants to get started faster, but seed is much cheaper, and with seed you can start a few plants each week, so you don't have too much all at once, or plant a big patch so you have plenty for a day of canning or freezing. For that size garden, you should plan on spending at least two hours a day, so nothing gets ahead of you. If you take a day off, just do a little more on the next two days, but if you take a week off, it's a lot to catch up on.

    Here in Maine I use raised beds because the warm up and dry out earlier, which is just what you don't want. You should still use wide rows, not plant one long strip of seeds, in order to make the best use of space and to conserve materials and water. If you design your rows wide enough to easily step over they will be more pleasant to work in. The paths should be wide enough to walk comfortably, but not too wide, 16" is good for walking. If you will be using a wheelbarrow or garden cart, it helps if every other path is wide enough to get that down between rows, which makes it easy to keep things neat. Your beds should not run the whole length of the garden - you should have a path that goes down the middle in both directions so you don't have to walk 100 feet just to get to the other side.

    Tomorrow I'm going to try to teach myself how to put a drawing on here so I can send an idea of how I make my garden plans.

  • luvncannin
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you Bi11me. some great info to get me going! I would like to know how to post a drawing too later.
    I was planning on doing wide rows/blocks for most of my stuff.
    I do not have a way to store food over winter except for canning and freezing. I would love to be able to eat fresh produce in the winter. I have access to an industrial kitchen with 8 burners to do my canning so it goes by fairly quickly. My son will do the tilling for me but thats it this year. The rest is up to me. Which is fine as long as I stay acclimated to the heat and stay out of A/C.
    With leaf lettuce would you plant a whole small scoop/tbsp at once or just a few seeds at a time? I eat alot of lettuce but I dont want a mixing bowl full every day. Also can it stand a little shade from other crops?
    And cilantro I want mostly for the seeds.
    thats a good idea too about the beans. I didnt want to leave any space empty in the main area. It is raining now. I will take that as a good sign!
    luvncannin

  • bi11me
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    First of all, there are ways to grow and eat fresh produce all winter long... I've been doing it for years when its 10 below sometimes here, it just takes a few adjustments. Lettuce is almost impossible in Texas in the summer, but you should have great salads for 6 - 8 months if you grow the right crops. Since you are doing leaf lettuce (which I prefer), the easiest way is to scatter the seed in blocks, and let it come in thick. You can harvest the leaves one at a time as they mature - usually about 3-4 inches, or cut whole plants. Once the weather starts to heat up, lettuce will need to be shaded, and you can try to grow it under tomatoes or beans, but soon you will need to plant a different salad green that can take the heat. Growing cilantro for seed (what my chefs call coriander) is easy. Start it when the weather is in the 70's. Plant a full packet of seeds all at once across the bed (not lengthwise). Just keep them growing until they start to flower, then let them dry right in the bed. After a few good dry days, cut the stems about 3" high, trip off the bottom leaves, tie the plants together with rubber bands, and put them in a paper bag in the house to dry for a few weeks. When you're ready to collect the seeds rub them off the stems into a big deep pot, get a blow-drier and take them outside and slowly lower it into the pot so it blows the broken leaves and seed coverings away, leaving only the seeds. You use a similar technique for dried beans. It's easier than I make it sound. For fresh cilantro leaf, you have to plant a little bit at a time, but frequently, because it goes to seed quickly.

    Here is a link that might be useful: sample garden design idea

  • luvncannin
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow thanks Bi11me that is awesome. I was just going over some different ideas and that helps so much. I was wondering about putting lettuce in the shade of my tomatoes and using the tomatoes and beans as sort of a wind break.

  • bi11me
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's a complicated process. It helps to have permanent beds and paths, then you can use the same map every year, or some people do a map for every season - making 4 maps every year. This makes it much easier for me to plan the garden, because I pick one main crop to go in each bed, with the planting date and the maturity date. Then I squeeze in the minor crops for that bed before and after the main one. If there isn't a good fit, I just throw in a bunch of seeds of something that grows fast in that season, and wait for the season to turn for something that will do more good. By having the dates right there, you can plan your kitchen activities around major harvest dates, for instance, if you know your Roma Tomatoes are due to be ripe on Sept 15th, you do a big harvest that week, let them ripen fully for a few days off the vine, then on a bad gardening day you can have a good day in the kitchen. When I do my planning now, it's mostly on paper - just because I'm not that far advanced on computer - but I have maps of all my beds, a huge calender, and my stack of seed catalogs to keep everything straight. I've been dreaming of creating a database that would make the whole thing possible with one program, but there are so many dimensions involved, I just can't wrap my head around the programming. This year I am planning on over 170 cultivars, and a lot of them have multiple planting dates, so the logistics take almost 2 months to figure out, but it's an entertaining challenge at this point.

    I have a commercial gas range at home - a 6 burner Garland that I bought at an auction, and lots of commercial kitchen gear. We often get days in the 50s and foggy in September up here, perfect for firing up the stove and doing eight hours of cooking. I make lots of jams and preserves that I use for Christmas gifts.

  • luvncannin
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Commercial kitchen equip is so much easier. I have never had a very large kitchen in my home so when I began canning several years ago it was a real challenge.Now I feel very blessed and spoiled to have such a huge area to use. I too can for other people.
    This planning proces is very complicated but its one of my favorite parts. I have done lots of research but look forward to the day when the knowledge is deeply embedded in my brain.

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