Some people say that MG interferes with soil live and harms the soil in your garden, but we're not usually concerned with soil life in containers. The thread you linked to is a discussion about using it in gardens, not containers. Container culture is much closer to hydroponics than it is to growing in the garden, so when you try to apply what you do in the garden to container culture, you can easily create a lot of heartache for yourself.

Biotic populations in containers is a boom/bust thing. One day they're there in abundance, breaking down organic soil amendments along with the organic fraction of the soil itself (not a particularly good thing, if you've built a soil specifically because of it's structural longevity), the next day they're gone, or the populations greatly reduced because 'something' wasn't right. Temperature, pH, moisture levels, fertility levels, soil composition, additives, all impact soil biotic life, so when populations are low, you can add all the organic soil amendments and fish emulsion you want, but it still won't be available in a form plants can utilize until it's acted upon and broken down into elemental form by soil life.

Fertilizers like MG and other soluble products simply furnish exactly the same elements plants get from organic molecules as they break down, only they are already in ionic form, making them immediately available for uptake.

Al

In the past I have used MG, Grow More, VF-11, etc, and thought WOW, look how fast everything is growing. That may be the case in the begining but adventually my gardening nightmare had just started. The plants would grow so fast that the cell walls were too thin, causing the plant to become weak and the insects would start a feast. No matter what I did I never had a good gardening experiance using MG. I tried something different this year, Organics. Let me tell you, this is the way to go for container gardening. I use Dr. Earth's in a Tea form, the instructions are on the back of the box on how to make the Tea. If you are worried about lack of microbes in the container to break down the organic matter and feed the roots, use a compost tea with worm castings and your plants will do much better than MG can ever do. If you are really serious and want to step it up to the next level, I would recomend getting "Teaming with Microbes". In addition I would also use Neptune's fish and seaweed fertilizer, it is good stuff.

MG is great, along with a proper potting mix, for many plants. Once you get into specific less common varieties of veggies (like paste tomatoes vs. standard "slicing" tomatoes), you tend to run into nutrient defficiency issues. Maybe that's not the best way to state it, but all i'm saying is that it's a great fertilizer, but does not contain all essential nutrients that many plants need. Some of these plants can get by w/o the extra nutrients, some can not (and will have problems like BER). Make sense?

- Steve

Prestons garden, I have read Teaming with Microbes from cover to cover and missed the part about using the Soil Food Web in container gardening. I have been to Jeff Lowenfels lectures and missed that part again. Where should I look? Al

That anyone would pay for VF-11 certainly says something. ;o)

It's very easy to offhandedly blame MG for problems that could easily be attributable to other causes. We are probably witnessing more than a little post hoc fallacy in the reasoning/conjecture that MG was to blame for Preston's ills.

In order for him to blame MG for his issues, he will have to look at the many, many pictures I've (and others have) posted of extremely healthy plants that were tended using only MG or similar soluble/chemical fertilizers as a nutritional source, and then explain how this can be possible and his claims still be true. Since many can grow perfectly happy/healthy plants using naught but MG as a nutritional source, shouldn't we be looking at 'grower error' as the actual cause of Preston's issues? It's much more logical - and even if logic isn't enough, it's still a perfect place to apply that whole Occam's Razor thing.

Not everyone can ride a bicycle, but because one person is unable is no illustration that bikes are unrideable.

Al

It's interesting that if someone has a differing opinion, or chooses to go the organic route (who wouldn't want to eat chemical free fruit, for example ?) and has found something other than what has worked for you,that you have to resort to questioning (or in your case downright insulting) their gardening skills. I wasn't trying to offend you or anyone. I was trying to share my experience and what has worked for me.

Al, God Bless and Happy Gardening-

C'mon - don't play that card, Preston. It has nothing to do with what route you choose, and everything to do with the absolute statements you made. I could have been blunt and said that because I and others are able to grow perfectly hale plants using MG as their fertilizer of choice, that it definitely IS grower error, but I took a softer approach. The fact is that your reasoning was faulty and your statements incorrect. Pointing that out is not insulting you. If you hadn't made the brash statements, I wouldn't have been inclined to comment.

People disagree with me all the time and it usually gets no comment, but when you disagree and use faulty logic and statements you can't support, then you ask for what you put forward to be called into question - I'm sorry if you're offended, but please don't blame me for pointing to the obvious holes in what you said.

When you blame MG for your "gardening nightmares" when dozens here are absolutely certain that you can use MG and be completely nightmare free, it's reasonable to assume you're wrong. Instead of blaming me for what you said, you might explain why MG is any more likely than organic forms of N (like blood meal, e.g.) to "make plants grow so fast that the cell walls are too thin, causing the plant to become weak and the insects would start a feast." Again, if you over-fertilize with ANY fertilizer, it's 'grower error', not the fertilizer's fault. The fact is - if you cannot grow perfectly happy/healthy plants with MG it's your problem, not the fertilizer's.

If you'll notice, I never questioned your recommendations, allowing you your opinions re product recommendations - even though I strongly disagree with them; but, when you make statements and assumptions that are absolutely, positively false, you're going to hear the other side of the story.

If you want to step up to the plate and make a case for what you said, you have the floor.

BTW - you added the part about "chemical free fruit" which is another whole issue and not part of what I initially questioned, though I would have because there is no clear evidence on which to base that line of thinking. If you care to reply, please be sure to stick to your original statements and not broaden the topic so it's all-encompassing.

Al

For every gardener who posts on the Gardenweb at least two gardeners, who NEVER post themselves, read the posts for information from other gardeners, most assumed to be more knowledgeable than themselves. Any posts which may cause other gardeners to believe something which cannot be supported by facts, should expect someone with contrary knowledge to step in to attempt a correction. There is no animosity involved, and no offense is intended. Al

I would have to agree with Al.

While the concept of using organic may make me "feel" better about my produce, in the end it all comes down to production. An in-ground garden has waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay different nutrient requirements than a container garden so (usually) slower acting organics may not provide you with the results you want to see.

If you have the patience, you may want to try your own experiments, growing two of the same variety of tomatoes for example. Fertilize one with MG and the other with an organic brand. Take photos during and after the growing season and weigh the produce grown on each plant. Once you are able to do this, you'll have the answer that is best for you.

I'm kind of a cheater and tend to stay "middle-of-the-road" when it comes to this discussion. I use organics when I build my soil, but tend to go with chemical based supplementation during the growing season at minimal strength to get the results I want...which BTW, is an ongoing process!

Donna H.