I just feel like it drags on the ground and needs some space under. ??? ==>> actually ... given a big enough garden.. many conifer collectors specifically collect trees the 'skirt' ... that is.. grow to the ground and spread out ... but then.. i have 5 acres ... and space for such ... besides... once you lift the canopy.. you have to weed and mulch in the bare ground you created .. all that said ... its your plants.. do whatever you want with them .. make yourself happy ... and who cares what the rest of us say .. or think ... ken btw:.. a horticulturist walks into a bar and sees a biologist .. and says to himself.. who cares ..lol ... and his friend says.. but hes a professor ... and the horticulturist says... so what ... well this is an epic fail...lol: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffnt&q=conifer+skirts&iax=images&ia=images somewhat better: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=pendulous+conifer+that+grow+to+the+ground+and+create+skirts&t=ffnt&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images do whatever you want to your trees ... ken

Cayveman, I finally checked back on this thread. It's about thermodynamics and the conservation of energy, so in easy to understand terms when you have energy input (like the voltage and amps going to the heater) and what comes out has to be the same because the energy can't magically increase or be destroyed. It's simpler with electric resistance heaters because inefficiencies that we normally see in motors, pumps, etc. manifest themselves as heat which in this case we want. So the energy (kwh) can be directly converted to Btu's (Btu = Btu/hr average x number of hrs on). The reason I say Btu/hr average is that the heaters thermostat turns the heating element on and off. As for the heat lamp vs a std lamp, if they both draw 100 watts of power, they have the same heat output in Btus to a space. The std lamp would have a higher lumens (measurement of light) per watt but even the light after being absorbed and reflected by surfaces converts to heat. So there is ultimately no difference in the heat added to a room. Other items in your home such as TV's, dishwashers, etc. are not 100% efficient at doing the intended task, but all the input power in them as well converts into heat. So a dishwasher or refrigerator running helps heat your house as well as a portable heater in the winter but adds to the air conditioning load in the summer. Calculating the heat output is easy because all of the inefficiency of the motors and circuits in your appliances result in heat. That is not the case with your electric water heater because much of the heat is dumped down the drain with your bathwater and only a part of the heat stays in your home. Lastly concerning heating of air or water, the equation is the same for sensible heating or cooling (w/o removing moisture like an Air Cond. in the summer). What I think everyone is interested in is heating the space so a thermostat will show a higher temperature in the room. There is radiant heating used in non heated spaces where people have to stand in a line of site of the heater to feel the heat but that is like standing in front of a fireplace to keep warm. The equation for heating air or water is: Btu = mass x heat capacity x Temperature difference The difference is that water has a spec. wt. of about 62.4 pounds per cubic ft (Varies with temperature and can be found on the web.) Air is only about 0.075 pounds per cubic foot. (Varies with temperature and can be found on the web.) Also the heat capacity of water is 1.0 Btu/pound - deg F while that for air is 0.24 Btu/pound - deg F. Example: Small bathroom 5 ft x 9 ft with 8 ft ceilings at 40 degrees F. We want to heat to 80 deg F using a portable electric heater having an input of 1500 watts ( 5,119.5 Btu/hr input = output). Volume = 6 x 9 x 8 = 432 cubic ft Mass = 432 cubic ft x 0.075 pounds/cubic ft = 32.4 pounds Specific Heat of air = .24 Btu required = 32.4 pounds x 0.24 Btu/pound - deg F x (80 - 40) deg F = 311 Btu kWh= 311 Btu x 1 kWh / 3413 Btu = 0.091 kwh Time required to heat the room = 311 Btu x 1 hr / 5119.5 Btu = 0.0608 hr = 3.64 minutes You would actually take more than 3.64 minutes because you would be heating all the fixtures, walls, and if not insulated well other adjacent rooms. I asked my mailman if I could borrow one of his edenpure heaters for a test just to compare what Im describing above, the heating of a small bathroom with two types of heaters just for fun. I have the equipment to measure input energy and the air temperatures would have to be measured in several areas in the room every 30 seconds or so and recorded. There wont be a difference because its impossible but it might be interesting to post the test results. Could be done in the summer but you would have to heat the room to 100 deg F to get good results and preferably before the sun comes up (to eliminate another factor) and at about the same outdoor air temperature. What goes in has to be what comes out. It cant disappear or get larger. Not talking about heat pumps or air conditioners right now as that is a more complex subject and those units have COPs and EERs associated with them where the heat addition to a space is higher than the compressor energy used. They still dont violate the laws of thermodynamics about the creation or destruction of energy. Again this isnt saying everything is 100% efficient. Its just electrical appliances, heaters which wont have 100% efficient motors but the inefficiencies manifest themselves as heat. I used to sell pumps as a sales engineer and our pump curves would show the pump efficiencies which would vary depending on rpm, flow rate, and pressure. What this meant was that the motor and pump when combined might only be 75% efficient and was determined by tests performed by the pump and motor manufacturers that were shown on graphs that engineers used. The efficiency the manufacturer stated was based on the actual power required to pump a given flow and pressure compared to the theoretical power required (based on another engineering formula). All the electric power (watts) into the motor ends up as heat while moving the water. Pumping the water even heats it up slightly. Hope this clarifies things and I havent been too long winded. Even if its stored by being absorbed by a piece of copper it eventually is released into the air. It has to be the same as what's input. The same is true of a 100 watt light bulb no matter what type it is, although a heat lamp having larger diameter wire inside its bulb outputs a smaller percentage of light and more heat

The link to the Costco warmer seems to be broken (at least it didn't work for me). I have included a link to the Ancona Comfort 8. Price $229.99 Features (cut and pasted): Freestanding or wall hung towel warmer and drying rack that can be located in your bathroom, laundry room or other convenient areas Carbon steel construction with Chrome finish Sleek Mediterranean styling All parts and instructions included Reaches its preset ideal temperature in 15 minutes Engineered with dry-lined electric power to be safe and energy efficient, so it can remain on for convenient daily use 110 volts, 150 Watts, with on/off switch; cUL certified Dimensions: 37" (93 cm) height; 24" (60 cm) width; depth 12" (30 cm) Weight: 11 Lbs (5.0 KG) 1 year limited warranty Costco also has the Comfort 9S, currently priced $199.99 (after instant rebate). Features (cut and pasted): Features: 304 Grade Stainless Steel Towel warmer and drying rack that is wall mounted Sleek Mediterranean styling All parts and instructions included 6 feet (1,8m) power chord to plug into a standard grounded 3-pin electrical outlet Reaches its preset ideal temperature in 15 minutes Engineered with dry-lined electric power to be safe and energy efficient, so it can remain on for convenient daily use 110 volts, 150 Watts, with on/off switch, UL certified Dimensions: 30" (76 cm) height; 24" (60 cm) width Weight: 11 Lbs (5.0 KG) 1 year limited warranty Here is a link that might be useful: Ancona Comfort 8

I'm not a lighting designer, and I don't mean to disparage anyone else here. But I do visit other people's homes. And I'm of an age (mid-50s) when good lighting is getting more and more important to me. So maybe I'm a bit biased. And maybe all my friends just didn't have good lighting designers. But I will flatly state that - regardless of the ages or styles of the homes I've been in - I've never seen an installation of recessed lights that produced as even a light as that from good old simple surface mount or pendant lights. This isn't hard to figure out. Bright sunshine streaming in a window feels good, but (especially if your floors are dark) it doesn't really light up the room very well. Your cat will love drowsing in that pool of warmth, but it's not the best light for reading, is it? On the other hand, outdoors under a tree is a great place to take your book. There you're getting some direct sunlight, and some light reflected from the atmosphere, clouds, earth, vegetation, and buildings. Lighting designers, being observant folk, figured that out in the early to mid 20th century. Vision and productivity are best when the room lighting is even - coming from many directions, like daylight. So they (re)designed lighing fixtures so they (the fixtures, not the designers) produced both direct (from the fixture right to the living area) and indirect (reflected from walls and ceilings) light. We seem to have more or less forgotten those designers' work. Cans - all direct light, shadow producers like direct sunlight - have been fashionable now for quite a few years. You see them in the glossy home improvement magazines. That's what almost all the builders automatically install in new construction. You can improve things a bit by having lots of different "suns." You can also add fixtures and systems specifically intended to add some indirect light. Of course, all that costs more to buy and costs more to install. If you have well designed (or even fairly simple) pendant and surface mount lights, they'll send light in all directions. That light will fall right on what you're doing, and also reflect off the walls and ceiling - just like good natural light. You'll see better and feel better. You'll spend less money on fixtures, have less complexity, have lower installation costs, and most likely use less energy. You'll also have better room insulation (instead of a swiss-cheese ceiling full of holes) to reduce your HVAC bills and improve comfort. If you're young and see just fine in poor to mediocre light, if you're going to sell your house in 5 years and are concerned about not following fashion, then maybe cans are for you. If you want good, practical lighting at reasonable cost and with moderate energy use, and you're remodeling or building for the future - then I suggest that you consider surface and pendant fixtures instead.