Four O'Clocks & Forget Me Nots

13 years ago

I live in zone 9 and this is my first year with an area to garden. I live in an apt. and the sun hits each part of the soil for about 1-2 hours each, so it's basically going to need to be a full shade garden. I got four o clocks (marvel of peru) and forget me nots (Victoria blue)because i want it to be as colorful as possible. The garden has a few zinnias and snapdragons i attempted to plant which are all dying, and it has horrible soil. So I have decided to dig out all the soil and put in new soil (which is a time consuming project). However I can't help but feel that mid July is too late to start this project. Is it too late to plant these shade loving babies if I start germinating them today and plant them in about a week or two in pots before i transfer to the ground while i dig it up? And if I do plant them and they grow, since they are spring/summer bloom how shall i save them during the winter? The forget me nots say they are perennial biennials so maybe those I can plant? ( the four o clocks are annuals but those are what I'm the most excited for).

Any advice on what to do with my garden patch and these shade loving flowers would be much appreciated. I know it's a long post!

Thank You!

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Comments (4)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
13 years ago
marvel of peru .... I THINK.. is a perennial in peru .... go figure on that ... but you will want to check that out yourself ...

FMNots are true biennials.. there is no such thing as s perennial biennial ...

now.. i have no z9 experience .. but i have lots of opinions.. lol ... so that wont stop me ...

FMN have just finished blooming here in my z5.. and jsut recently spread their seed ... that seed will sprout soon and grow into a very small plantlet ... that will bloom and die next season [the definition of a biennial] ... how that changes in your zone will have to be answered by others ....

MOP's ... are just getting ready to bloom here .. from planting in late may .... so i dont see why you cant plant them.. and some bloom in your late season ... PRESUMING you can baby them along when planting in the deep summer ...

there are reasons things are planted in spring.. which have to do with weaker sun.. warm but cool soil .. and dampness that allows a tiny seedling to grow enough roots.. to support the giant plant above that is going to come along in the heat of summer..

when you try to do seeds later in summer.. those seedlings will need a LOT of TLC to get past the juvenile phase to get to flowering ...

all that said.. what do you have to lose.. go for it.. buck the advice.. live and learn ... again.. maybe in z9 CA you can get away with it.. since it wont be snowing in oct .. lol ... that is the problem here in MI .. i dont have enough season left with this late of a start ...

good luck

ken
lisa33
13 years ago
Ken is right about four o'clocks. They are tender perennials and form tubers. In my zone, they can be dug and stored through the winter and replanted the next year after danger of frost (like dahlias). Whether there is time accomplish that this year, I don't know.

I started Forget-me-nots from seed. They were started indoors around mid-February and bloomed starting in early June, I think.

If your seed packets give you "days to bloom" information, that can help. Otherwise, I've googled and found that information. Ferry Morse is good about giving that information. Beyond that, I can't help much. I can only dream of gardening in zone 9!

:) Lisa
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Vera, here are my sprouts. they are from seeds fallen from last year. the bunch that is by my foundation - they came up about a month ago, and withstood the really cold weather we had for 10 days in early March. the lil one on the right -- that is about 2 days old. the other already has it's second set of leaves. where it was mentioned "they need light" all of these are on the south side of my house... so I guess they do get "light" (originally when i read that, i was thinking "glow lights") and it's possible mine come up early is they are more protected by the foundation, warmer and get a lot of sun - which warms the soil earlier. if anyone needs/wants seeds... i still have tons (that's my plant posted above) ... and if anyone is in the chicago area... you can come over and dig up seedlings... my neighbor has tons too, which she also pulls out the excess.
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I don't know how they will do in the shade as I have only seen them growing in full sun. Once they bloom and frost kills them back you can remove the foliage and leave the bulb in the soil. It should sprout the next spring. Just like dahlias. I have read that the 4 o'clock tuber can get to be very large after several years. I have to dig the tubers or place the pot inside a dark unheated basement room to over winter as they would freeze in the ground here. 4 o'clock (mirabilis) seeds can rot in the pot or ground if the soil is too wet. I've also had volunteer seedlings. Mostly I spring sow mine using the winter sowing method. My mother always direct sowed them across the width in front of her large farm garden and had a colorful display late summer/early fall.
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Searched on "4 O'Clocks" and this discussion came up. Nice old discussion! In my area (Maritime NW) I have never seen 4 O'clocks in the nurseries and big box stores. I'm speculating that's because most of their flowers are sold in bloom, and 4 O'clocks bloom when larger. They probably don't bloom in little 6-packs or even in 1-gallon containers. I'm guessing about that. Also, if the flowers are not reliably open when the stores are open, people might not buy them. I bought seeds via the internet. Feeling nostalgic about gardening from my childhood, and these 4 O'clocks were part of that. I grew some about 10 years ago and as I recall they did OK here. I'm more into gardening now than I was then, so maybe they'll grow better. Plus I have a deer and rabbit problem, and maybe they'll be resistant to those animals. Maybe. I read start them 6 to 8 weeks indoors before the last frost, for cool climates like mine. They can also be planted in the ground, but maybe will start blooming later. A packet has plenty of sees, so I can try both. Nice discussion! I've lost the experiences of older gardeners in my family, and it seems there aren't a lot of gardeners in my neighborhood, so it's up to me to discover what works and what doesn't. Pass-along plants like these are worth preserving for the next generation!
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Keep in mind also, the more blossoms, the more fragrance. Think about planting lots of a single fragrant annual, rather than "one of each." You can always try a different one next year. I was happy with four o'clocks the year I had fifteen plants growing in buckets on the front steps. Three five-gallon buckets, five plants per bucket. That was enough plants to actually smell them at night. This year I only grew a couple and with only one plant in bloom, I was getting twigs up my nose trying to catch any scent at all. All of the four o'clocks I've grown have been fragrant, and I've tried several colors and sources. For some reason I had terrible germination with Burpee though, and I planted three different packets from them. Oh, and I second nicotiana, but you have to get the right one if you want scent. Look for the tall white night-blooming nicotiana. It's gangly, floppy, and wilts during the day (I tell curious people it's sleeping), but at night it revives and smells fantastic. The flowers droop and point down during the day but lift themselves and point upwards at night. The plant gets three to five feet tall, so for most people the flowers are near nose level, too. Plant several in a clump, and be prepared to stake them to keep them upright, or the flowers will end up at ankle level and we're back to drunken crawling. I've tried several varieties of the short, bright colored daytime-blooming nicotiana and the original white one blows them all away for scent. I've seen it listed as Nicotiana alata, Nicotiana sanderae, and Jasmine nicotiana. Nicotiana sylvestris is reputed to be fragrant also (and taller), but I haven't tried it yet. For me, neither of these plants was in bloom before July. They also wait until dusk to look good, so I'd recommend adding some companion plants to add interest early in the season and during the day. Edie
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rhizo_1 (North AL) zone 7
13 years ago
One thing not mentioned above is that both of these plants re-seed themselves rather successfully. You won't need to worry about overwintering, replanting, etc. In some locations, they can become prolific and will require time in removal.
Edie
13 years ago
Arielle,
Up north, zinnia, snapdragon, forget-me-nots and four o'clocks would die in full shade as you describe it. Your climate is a whole 'nuther world. For maximum color in your garden, I'd recommend talking to local people to find out what thrives in your area. Talk to neighbors with nice gardens and staff at the better nurseries. Find the website for your local agricultural/horticultural extension - it will be associated with a university. Many have searchable online databases and some offer classes on gardening, composting, etc, either free or for a small fee.

I also recommend you do some more research before you replace all your soil. That's a big project, not fun, and only necessary where the soil is contaminated with toxic chemicals. If you just have ordinary but uninspiring dirt, sand, clay, etc., you can improve it by adding compost and other goodies. Another option would be to add soil on top of what you have to make a raised garden. And if you get the right plants you may be able to grow them in the soil you have now.

Four o'clocks - if you can get them to bloom you'll have them forever. I deadhead mine daily and still miss seeds.

One source to get you started:

Annie's Annuals is a CA nursery with an online catalog and a great website. There's a lot of information there and it's well organized. Check the "Totally useful plant lists" - there's one for dry shade. (Is your shade wet or dry?) For the rest of us, they do ship plants and they do have plants hardy to at least zone 5. I haven't bought anything *yet.*

Here is a link that might be useful: Annie's Annuals

Four O'Clocks & Forget Me Nots

Comments (4)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

lisa33

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rhizo_1 (North AL) zone 7

Edie

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