I have started mixed colors four o'clocks from seed and them germinated fairly quickly. Then I ordered custard & cream four o'clocks and when I got them in the mail, I planted the seeds in the same little greenhouse in my kitchen and that was a good 7-8 days ago and I still have nothing. Has anyone tried to sow this variety from seed before and if so, did you have a problem? I was really looking forward to this variety, they really are pretty. I know I'm probably jumping the gun a bit, but the other 4 'oclocks came up so quickly. Now I'm wondering what could be wrong.

I love 4 oclocks too, and didn't realize they would bloom in part shade. I'm excited because this year I bought a new variety (at least new to me) with vivid lime green leaves and pink flowers... I love lime green leaves alone, and with flowers, even better!

I'll let you guys know how they turn out later in the summer... Think I got the seeds for those at walmart!

Em

Linda,
I'm amazed your original ones came up so fast! Mine took three weeks to germinate in eighty degree weather AND I had soaked them first. I don't think anything is wrong with your seed, I think they're more "normal" than your first batch, lol!

I purchased some white 4 o'clock seeds from ebay in the fall. Soaked them overnight and planted in peat trays about 6 weeks ago. It took a long time but two did begin to emerge after I placed the trays outside and then some little bugger came and stole my seedlings! I sowed twelve and only the two came up. I just dug the remaining ten out of the peat.. is it worthless to try again with these same seeds? This is a dumb question isn't it? I really want all white for my moon garden and would love to find tubers to purchase but cannot find anything in white!

monne, well heck yes try again can't do anything worse but be where you are now and have a chance at it again if you try. Some have said it took overnight for them to sprout some a week, i've never bothered to soak, just plant em. I'd say try soaking 5 and planting 5 in the ground where you want them. Unless it's going to freeze where you are again, don't need to baby them to grow, if they are viable seeds that is.

KWet I soak my seeds overnight and have had great success with them. The only take 5 days at most for most of them to peek through. I start them inside where I can control the temp and then plant them out.
By the way I've started my hedge of them and will hopefully be able to post a pic later in the year. I have to thank Grumpgardenguy for those beautiful pics, I can't wait to have them grow again this year!

Now I'm all excited to try four-o'clocks, and I'd never really heard of them before. You guys have quite the knack in getting me interested in trying something new. That's the fun in gardening, I guess!

I have the perfect spot for them, too (I think). The side of my garage gets a lot of sun, but is just wasted space (the only thing there now are 4 large peonies). I want to try sunflowers, and was looking for something mid-range to balance everything out. The 4's sound like just the thing!

Glad to be of service, if you want to get into hostas, gerber daisies and snap dragons, i'll post some pics of those when they get going well.I actually still have to plant the white 4'o seeds i had gotten. I'm the lazy one, so i'll just go stick em in the ground without soaking them, i'll let the rain tonight do that.

Well its another year and the 4's have come back in force, many just now setting buds. Some are blooming some haven't budded yet, but soon another sea of color and fragrance will be in full swell.

For those wondering, many plant books list them as annuals, however, i think those writers live up north, some list them as perennials, must be southern writers. Some sites list them both ways, but by definition they are true perennials. The largest plants with extremely thick stalks don't usually die back to ground level, about 2 inches of stalk normally remain. In the center of that remaining stalk is where new growth for the next year appears, not around it or near it, but within the stalk itself. When this occurs you can see for yourself proof positive, that it is regrowth not new growth from seed. Granted that does not occur where the ground freezes and it kills the roots/tubers,(normally below 20 degrees ground temp) but the plant is capable of regrowth, so it is a true perennial, it's just luck that it also seeds abundantly to make it a returning annual, in those areas of the country where the plant dies off year to year..

Note: you have to prepare for them, they can be invasive, so if you have a spot in your landscape that is barren, due to soil (drought and poor soil tolerant) or shade (shade tolerant)or what have you, pop in a few 4's. Do not put them in the middle of your garden, unless of course you want to make a no care plant a tending nightmare. To stop seeding you will have to dead head. The flowers last 2 days on average and they constantly make new buds, so for the most part, you would have to deadhead every day and that could well be hundreds of blooms. If you have a tall bushy plant your going to miss a few if you miss any, chances are the seeds will germinate. WELL, I could go on forever, but you get the picture, give them a space of their own. They do well in full shade, therefor you can put them around trees ( look back at the photo of the crepe Myrtle), they will multiply, but you just mow where you don't want them to be. You don't have to put fancy boarders around them, as they will cover them up anyway.

Hey, all you zone 5-ers who are digging up tubers in the fall! You may want to leave one in the ground in a very sheletered spot and see what happens. I live in Northern IL and planted Four O'clock seeds for the first time last spring and I did not pull any tubers out last fall. I thought of them as annuals. Now I have one that returned, a stocky 3' tall plant with some small seedlings around it. It is in a very sheltered southwesten location with the protection of a hedge from the west. I think it may be a zone 6 micro-biome the way my plants behave. I have a good crop of Maypops that return bigger every year, and my tritoma and crocosmia flourish. I even have snapdragons that overwinter there.

I've heard horror stories about their invasiveness so grumpy's warning is something to heed. I'm trying them for the first time -- 3 in a half barrel pot at my sis's. [I'm the only gardener in the family] They should be the varigated flowered variety. hope so since at the base of the barrel I planted some portulaca w/ varigated flowers that should echo the pattern of the o'clocks quite nicely

Think I may need to get a tomato cage or 3 as they do seem like they want to flop a bit.

I'm wondering how to transplant these four o'clocks. I know the tubers are reall long and might be difficult, but they aren't doing well in the shade. Can I dig them up in July?

IF in the sun yes a tomato cage is a good thing they do tend to get top heavy and will topple over. It doesn't hurt their growth any, as the stems will adjust as opposed to breaking, but does make things messy if smaller plants are in front of them.

Transplanting is simple you don't need the whole tuber, just the better portion of it, many times even if it breaks of with just a bit of tuber left, it will recover. They will look sad for a long time, if allot of plant and very little tuber, some top leaves may die off and the rest stay droopy, but recovery is still possible. Shade doesn't deter them much, but they do get taller and fuller in sun. It dosen't normally affect blooming percentage, just size of plant. The more mature the plants are in shade the bigger they will eventually get, those from seed normally 2-3 ft is about all you can expect in full shade. IF grown in the same spot for years and never composted, mulched or fertilized you will need to help out the soil some. As with any long term growing in the same spot with same plant, some care is needed, you don't really need to do the same as crop rotation, but do need to help the soil. The same basic reason, certain plants use certain nutrients and deplete the soil of those, however with most flowering plants they normally all use the same nutrients and use them up much slower then veggies do. Also check the Ph if acid, for 4's add a bit of lime.

July, You can dig them anytime, heat will stress them a bit more, but should still do OK if watered in well and watered good for about 5 days. Spring is always best time to transplant most anything, but you can do them anytime, with a bit more fussing around with them.

Thanks for all the useful info on this site. I live in a hot corner of Spain and I am very new to this plant. Never came across them until I started gardenwebbing...and then one day saw hundreds of beautiful, heavenly smelling, white-flowered plants growing wild in the gravelly beach of a small fishing port near where I live. I wondered if these were four oclocks and I cheekily stole five very small cuttings. Amazingly, for me, three of these are now fully-fledged two foot high plants and yes, they definitely are fours. Unfortunately, I have only had about 6 blooms (!) from all three plants and they have now stopped blooming alltogether. They are in half-sun/half-shade and appear to get stressed (very wilted and leaves curl inwards) if I don´t give them a good soak every other day. They are in a raised bed about 6ft square and in pretty poor soil enriched with some (not much) well-rotted sheep manure. I have seen them growing wild (i.e.by roadsides, etc) in full sun and flowering like crazy. And they don´t seem to be wilting or heat stressed even though I am pretty sure they don´t get watered at all.
Am I killing mine with kindness or not being kind enough? Do they need to get better established or bigger to flower properly? My plants seem to be at least as big as the ones I´ve been envious of and have far more luxuriant leaf growth.

Any advice very gratefully received. I just love these plants (particularly the white ones) and the fragrance is fantastic - reminds me of a friend´s very expensive Issey Miyake perfume!
Thanks
Almeria

Almeria, Remember yours are transplanted cuttings, the ones you see wild are established. Their root system is well established for the soil they are in, yours are in different soil with new roots forming. Yours will take time to assimilate to your conditions and form a stronger root structure, so don't despair, yours should be doing 100% better next year. Yours will heat stress quicker then those on the road side, for the previous stated reasons. You just need to baby them for the first week or so of transplanting and during high heat or drought they will need watering. I don't normally need to water extra from natural rainfalls here unless we have a dry spell, but, mine are mature settled plants.

¡¡¡Grumpygardenguy to the rescue once again!!!
Thanks so much. You´ve cheered me up and I am looking forward to next summer already!
Happy gardening, Grumpy!
Almeria

Do deer eat four o'clocks?

Sus i don't think so, if i'm not mistaken the leaves are poisonous or flowers one, though it doesn't seem to bother plant eating bugs.

Ron, good thread. Lots of good information. I traded seed with a gardener in Japan and got a beautiful dappled pink 4 O'clock that does great in the Texas heat. Good to see the variety shown in this thread. May have to get some more colors. Will try to post a picture of the Japanese 4 O'clock.

{{gwi:14856}}

Just to let ya'll know that are sending self addressed for seeds.... I've filled all so far, but am out of the yellow/red variegated, they have been picked over by the neighbors. I've Just been able to send some yellows reds and peachy colors on last few requests. My neighbors have been taking advantage of seed gathering this year, last year they left them be and i had thousands of seeds and hardly any requests, this year a bunch of requests and hardly any seeds left. LOL ain't that always the way. Anyhow, a week or so and I might be able to handle a few more requests, with a few more seeds then i've been able to send.

Hi, all. I'm new to four-o-clocks but inspired by all of you I tried them this year. They have been beautiful. I have them in a trough-like container and although they needed some propping they bloom beautifully from 6:30pm to 9:30 am here in southeast Michigan. We've had a tough summer....not much rain, very hot. I want to save some seeds but have no experience with this plant....would appreciate recommendations from more experienced 4 growers.

I grew 4 o'clocks for 20 years and just love them. The last 4 years have had none as they became one of the most favorite food for the massive chipmunk invasion we had in Massachusetts. Well this year I was bound a determined to get them growing again. No chipmunks this year, just turkeys eating all my berries and horrible heat, humidity and little rain. Have broken colors growing this year, but not doing well at all. Some in full shade, some in part, some in full sun. Plants are about 8-12 inches. Lost 2 of them and 5 have leaves turning yellow. The ones doing the best are in pots 10-12 inch ones only. Nice green leaves, getting bushy and full of buds. 3 in the ground are doing well and flowering. Alas, they are all the same color.
What experience has shown me with growing these "annuals" is that the tuber adapts to the size pot the plant goes into. 1 year I put one plant in an old whiskey barrel. As the neighborhood kids used to say, "feed me, feed me" the thing was a monster. those little hands used to go in the plant to see if it would try and eat them. I had to keep cutting it back since it was taking over the road and driveway. Needless to say, I didn't plant one in there again. Usually my plants are much bigger than they are now, but this summer in New England has everything growing very strange and poorly. We had 22 degrees towards the end of may on the 19th, and it was cold enough to snow, the day my daughter graduated college on may 22. Seems that this year the broken colors 4 oclocks don't like the heat and humidity day after day. I've never had them reseed either.
I've been told that one way to prevent any plants from reseeding is to surround them with bark mulch. the seeds have no soil to make contact with, therefore they can't germinate. I collect seeds to grow each year, but think this year I will try to save the tubers. other than putting them in the frig, is there any other way to store them for the winter in very cold New England and when is the best time to plant them again in the spring?

Ya'll can send SASE just look up address from previous post or send me an email. It will be a week or two, i just went through sinus surgery, so not up to doing anything but moaning for awhile.

As for saving seeds just keep them dry and basically airtight and they will last decades. For faster germination when planting soak them a day or so. As for saving tubers, just keep them cool and dry. Planting can do anytime after last frost. If another frost comes along you can just mulch them. You can also transplant them fairly easily when they are small. After they get tall the tubers will be rather large, so will have to dig a bit. When just a few inches high they are mostly tap root, and many times can just be pulled without even digging.

This is my first year with them - grown from seed rec'd in a local round robin swap box. Love them! Love the scent at 8pm. Love the pink and yellow streaks. Love that they are poinsonous to Japanese beetles. Love that they fall over, but new branches grow upward so no need for staking. I am in Zone 7 also, Grumpy, but my books say this plant is only hardy to Zone 10! Can I really overwinter in ground? If I dig them up, do they need to be in frig? Naked or packed in peat moss?

We've got hot pink and white four o'clocks blooming but have not noticed any fragrance. Sure would like to grow some that have that fragrance several have mentioned. Any idea what kinds are fragrant?

I have a white 4 O'clocks plant. When should I dig the tuber up and store it? I have never stored tubers before. Do you wrap them in something? Thanks for any information you can give me....Pat

I can't believe how long this thread has been going! You have all (esp grumpy) inspired me to plant fours next year. I grow lots of flowers, but have never had four o'clocks. I've never even see them around here. My Mom had some when I was a kid; I remember picking those seeds! I'm going to look for some of the broken color seeds. If anyone has extras, I'd love to have some. Just email me and I'd be happy to send an addressed stamped envelope.

Thread has been going awhile but 4's died down a bit ago no more seed to share this year. Try about before end of sept next year. We had some cold snaps that knocked them out for this year.

Hi! This was the first year I planted Four O'Clocks, and I have a lot of seeds. Two questions that I could use some help with:

1) Should I store the seeds in the refrigerator for the winter?

2) After reading some of your posts, it is interesting to read that I can dig up the "tubers" in the fall. What exactly should I do, and when, and how do I store the tubers? I am new to gardening, and would love to save one of my Four O'Clocks, a yellow one which grew to be quite lovely. I started him from seed, and if I could keep him for next year, it would make me happy.

Thanks so much for your help and advice!

Hi Grumpy, wow. 8-ft 4 o'clocks, mine never get over 3 feet, but I love 'em.
I love the fragance, I have rose, yellow and white, they all smell differently.
I never plant them, they re-seed like crazy.
I love how long they last way into the fall. Just now, mine are almost done.
If you have any seeds left, (I see you got 90 replies! Foolks must really like this one), I'd love to have some, any color, any variety, I'm not particular.
Let me know, and I'll send you a SASE.
BTW, I couldn't get to your pics, do you have any hint on that? When I clicked on the little box, nothing happened.

thanks,
ellen

I have a few still blooming. the post however is a couple years old now, last answer i made was about this time last year. They come back year after year, either from seed or tuber or both depending on your soil and winter conditions. I do still have a few seeds left. As to the photos, those fell by the wayside long ago, i had them stored on my ISP webspace and needed the room for ebay photos. I have a limited amount of seed i'll be able to harvest so not to many folks can send SASE's to 379 College Park Court, Huntsville Al 35805. The red/yellow combos have already started their downward spiral so no seed left there, but the peachy color and red or yellow solids are still producing.

Four O'Clocks (Marvel of Peru) have been reseeding themselves or growing from tubers for over 24 years now on my property. They even grow out of cracks in the concrete. Mine are magenta or yellow or a mix of the two. I read that four o'clocks are the only flower that can have two different colored flowers on the same plant. They are invasive and I am constantly pulling them from around my fruit trees. But I love how they can take care of themselves with almost no water or fertilizer or care. I am toying with the idea of replacing my entire lawn with four o'clocks.

well this old post has some staying power 3 years now and still going. sorry the photos are gone, I suppose i could add some new ones all the 4's are still going strong.

Now as to an entire lawn of 4 oclocks, i've frankly never seen a field of them, so might be rather interesting to try. However be mighty hard to play football or baseball on the lawn.

How can it be that I am 68 years old, and until yesterday, I had never EVER seen these. I am totally smitten and am now searching for information regarding planting and propagation. I have acres, so space is not a problem. I saw them on some property nearby, so I know they will grow here!!!!!! Yehaw!!

I just read thru this whole thing. I love 4 O'Clocks. Glad to see that I am not alone!

Well, glad to see this old post still has life, sorry the photos are all gone didn't have room left on my web space with ebay photos......Maybe when i get back from ALaska i can put some back up.

I saved a ton of seeds from last year, when i get back from Alaska i'll be selling them on ebay as well. so will just name the photos the same as what used to be on here, so some will show up again.

I have a large area to plant with 4 o'clocks and way too much to do trying to salvage the rest of the yard. I grew up loving 4 o'clocks (my Granny had them in her yard)and they seem like the answer to a prayer because the previous owner of our house killed the soil and it barely even grows grass. (However, if anyone wants crabgrass seed I'm your girl LOL)

The yard is over 2 acres so I'm pretty busy trying to improve the soil in the areas that will belong to more delicate plants. I'm hoping that 4 o'clocks reputation for being invasive means I can skimp a lot on the planting work as I need to plant about 400 feet of them plus a few strays here and there so preparing the soil properly would take a lot of time.

I have about 1200 seeds so I don't have to ration seeds and I am wondering if these plants are invasive enough that I can just poke them into the soil and have them come up through the grass. Am I asking too much or is this a reasonable expectation?

Also, if I plant them around an above ground swimming pool will they go sideways with their root system and damage the liner?

Does anyone who grows four o'clocks have a problem with Japanese beetles? Just how well do they work attracting the beetles and keeping the population down?

I just discovered four o'clocks last year. I absolutely love them. Their scent is amazing. They bloomed non-stop from mid-summer to frost. Didn't notice any Japanese beetles. I plan to plant more this year.

The JBs feasted on my 4 OCs. They also feasted on the morning glory and roses around them. I have no idea if they're actually toxic to JBs as the old wives' tales say, but I did find some JB carcasses on top of the soil the following spring. I was disgusted that they didn't even break down under all the snow of winter.

I guess the good news was that IIRC, they went for the leaves and not the flowers since the flowers tend to open during times of the day when JBs are not at their most active. I won't plant them near roses again because their scent probably attracts the JB monsters.

Wow, what a thread. I read every post, so much good info. When I was a kid our neighbors, one in particular had four o'clocks and she would just drop the seed back into the bed. It was between two houses only two tiny driveways apart so maybe why in our zone 5 it worked. I am planting some this year and can't wait to see what happens to them in future years. I am wondering if they fall over as a protection from breaking off from just the weight of the mature plant and/or the rain water absorbed. It would be a characteristic genetically retained by survivor plants.I think my neighbor had two stiff clothesline wires (remember those?) stretched along the bed attached to the house to hold them off the driveway. I can remember seeing those wires still there in winter, no plants. Hers were in full shade except at high noon, then full sun for an hour and they bloomed at four o'clock. I thought "how weird that a plant waits until it is almost night to bloom." Now I too am planning a night garden with white and silver plants and hoping to get some white four o'clocks out of this package. Good luck everyone on your foursies! Did you play jacks too?

I DO love them too! It sounds like your neighbor's plants were against the foundation of the house, in which case it's likely the tubers were able to overwinter, in addition to new seedlings. I had one in OH for years in such a spot and dug the football-shaped/sized tuber to bring to AL where it is still doing well.

Trail, good luck with your garden! Did you know there's a moon garden forum here?

Searched on "4 O'Clocks" and this discussion came up. Nice old discussion!

In my area (Maritime NW) I have never seen 4 O'clocks in the nurseries and big box stores. I'm speculating that's because most of their flowers are sold in bloom, and 4 O'clocks bloom when larger. They probably don't bloom in little 6-packs or even in 1-gallon containers. I'm guessing about that. Also, if the flowers are not reliably open when the stores are open, people might not buy them.

I bought seeds via the internet. Feeling nostalgic about gardening from my childhood, and these 4 O'clocks were part of that.

I grew some about 10 years ago and as I recall they did OK here. I'm more into gardening now than I was then, so maybe they'll grow better. Plus I have a deer and rabbit problem, and maybe they'll be resistant to those animals. Maybe.

I read start them 6 to 8 weeks indoors before the last frost, for cool climates like mine. They can also be planted in the ground, but maybe will start blooming later. A packet has plenty of sees, so I can try both.

Nice discussion! I've lost the experiences of older gardeners in my family, and it seems there aren't a lot of gardeners in my neighborhood, so it's up to me to discover what works and what doesn't. Pass-along plants like these are worth preserving for the next generation!

hey bear... there are some tricks to germinating such.. if you ever come back and read this.. i suggest you start your own post... for said tricks

ken

Hi Bear, I agree, never seen growing plants for sale either. There are usually Mirabilis seeds on the seed racks in stores because they usually do well in a single summer that way. PNW has its' own special climate (and forum on here I'm sure,) so make sure what you read applies to your location, for any plants. Seeds that fell on the ground last fall are starting to sprout here this week. Best of luck!

Here's what the one I mentioned in my last post looked like this past September.

I bought a couple of seed packets. One was the old fashioned Marvel of Peru. Other was Marbles. Soaked seeds overnight. Planted in sterile medium. Kept on a seed warming mat until at least one per pot germinated.

Marvel of Peru germinated about 1 out of 10 seeds. Marbles germinated about 1 out of 4 seeds. I planted lots of seeds so this is plenty of plants. Grew under lights a few weeks, now acclimating to outside. They are nice looking little plants. The stem coloration varies from yellowish to green to reddish. Interesting and fun.

Purpkeinopp those are really nice! I hope mine do half as well!

PNW is so diverse I find it unreliable for my specific area. There are some strong opinions, but 30 miles away and it changes. In the end, I need to give it a try and see what happens.

Bear, I think you'll get a nice mix with the varying stem colors you describe. I've grown several different varieties and usually the stem color corresponds to the main flower color. It's not the exact same shade of color. But usually pink stems produce pink blooms, yellow stems produce yellow, etc.

My favorite local nursery sold four o'clocks as plants one year as an experiment. They had them in 4" pots, one plant per pot. I don't know how many they grew but they had many left unsold in early July when they did their annual half-price sale. I had started four packets of seed and had maybe five plants to show for it. So I bought a bunch of plants. They were blooming in the 4" pots. But clearly not a popular item.

what should I do about my 4 o'clock plant? can I cut it back? of course by now it is all but dead. thank you. nancy

Nancy, I'm fairly new with them too but I think you can try digging it up and storing the tuberous root in the basement, then replant in the Spring. If it's protected, it might survive without digging it up.

I am leaving mine in the ground this winter. I had some in containers. I'm storing those in the attached garage, which never freezes but is still cool.

Then again, I saved some seeds, and plan to plant those in the Spring too. Got my bases covered :-)

Nancy, in general you will get more answers if you start a new thread with your question in the title.

Bear has the right idea. Trim the top growth down to a short stump. If you do this first, the remaining steps are easier. Dig up the root ball from your four o'clocks and gently shake or brush the soil off the roots. Look for a gnarly black baby carrot connected to the stump. This is the part to save. If it froze, the root will be mushy and you won't be able to save it. If the root is firm, trim the thin threadlike roots away so all you have is the carrot-like part. The stump will dry out and fall off on its own later on, leaving a flat spot. Store the root where it won't ever freeze. I don't have a basement or garage so I stash mine in my living space. Include a label, and write yourself notes on the calendar to check the root periodically in late winter through early spring. Look at the flat spot on top. When you see pink nubs there, pot the root in your favored potting mix and give it water, food, and light. The roots will increase in size every year. Many people just save and start seeds instead. I save both, but prefer the bushy, earlier blooming plants I get from the roots.