Hey jamkh
In an article in Bonsai Today , An old day, Japanese Master , implied that only a Bonsai grown from seed was a "True" Bonsai . And he had pictures on some thirty year old JBP seedlings(Bonsai )to prove it.
But
even he had to grow the tree out , then cut it back , to achieve a good taper.
Are you talking about the only true Bonsai being an allmost perfect tree growing inthe wild like, Mr Myogi described in the Karate Kid. Good Luck.
If I take a 10 ft. baldcypress with good roots and taper,cut it down to 4ft. jin the top one foot, and create a Bonsai arround this broken off trunk , what would be fake about this?. Mother Nature does it allmost every year in riversin the Fla. panhandle with hurricanes. you see these thick broken off trunks mabe 30 or40 ft tall, with new green grownt trying to form a new tree. They show a struggle to overcome disaster , They show a broken and scared dignity. So if I can reproduce this in a Bonsai pot,what is wrong with it? I plan to pot one up just like that next spring
There is no anger in this post, I just don't understand your objections to cutting a tree back.
R

Er,uh hm make that ,scarred dignity,.....How undignified !

Jamkh - you talked about the 'thick stem' (I presume you mean 'trunk') with small branches on top as being unattractive, but I think you may be referring to pictures of trees in training, rather than 'finished', because the description fits so well. Those little branches will become larger in time, but the initial technique is to first fatten the trunk (in the ground or growing box) over a few years, either before or after a chop, then (once chopped) work on branching, ramification, leaf reduction, direction for styling, etc. etc. There is no advantage to putting a tree in a (relatively) small pot and waiting for it to 'become' a bonsai, not unless you're 10 yrs old when starting out, and most of us are a lot older than that, including the Japanese teachers from whom so much of our present knowledge comes, via people who have studied with them for years in Japan and returned to share the knowledge, as well as people here (the West) who have spent many years learning about growing trees, and refined their techniques immensely to achieve some very beautiful work - have you actually been to major exhibitions and seen what's displayed, and discussed with the artists, or others why certain trees are considered to be terrific - and how they got that way? You are 'beyond' being a purist, you have unfortunately, I believe, been misguided, misled, by either a book, or someone who believes they are 'expert', but apparently are not, not by any standards internationally respected bonsai-ists today work at.

I have to say that Japanese bonsai can be very fine, but that does not diminish the "authenticity" of other bonsai.

You have to realize that bonsai are artificial. Want a natural bonsai? Look, but don't touch. Every technique employed is a means of applying some sort of human interference of influence (whatever connotation you want to imply) on the tree to further its appearance as a bonsai.

You also have to realize that trunk thickening and constant pruning are at odds with one another. Continual pruning greatly inhibits growth, and that means lateral growth as well. You can start with a small stick in a pot, constantly trim it back for 30 years, and have a trunk thickness which could be acheived in 3 or 4 growing seasons. It is not a wrong method, it is just different.

-Audric

My first question would be to ask the author of this string how long they have been practicing bonsai? My second question would be to ask to see some pictures of his/her trees. Before debating some of the flaws in this dissertation I want to make certain the discussion is on the level with an experienced and practiced bonsaiist and not just a rank beginner spouting misconceptions and wrong ideas gleaned from imagination and questionable sources.

I suspected I might get myself into the hornet's nest and now might as well face the sting. Bonsai is a art that has taken the Japanese a long time to refine. Thus they alone are privileged to impose certain norms into bonsai. I can appreciate the fact that a bonsai hobbyist is struggling against time to perfect his plant, and needs to improvise. I did mention in one posting that artful hands can even hide the stark wound of a chopped trunk. In Japan there is an abundance of aged bonsai, so chopping the trunk becomes unnecessary. I agree with Lucy that as the small branches begin to thicken, it is possible to achieve a fair degree of taper. Nothing wrong with that. As a point of interest, the thickness of the stem doesn't carry as much weight as the proportion and balance in bonsai, albeit this feature invariably predominates in Japan. Here I sense that this feature has taken precedence over others.
Nevertheless I would like to pose a challenge to western bonsaiists that they venture to exhibit their improvised bonsai in the Japanese National Show. When they win a prize, then I am quite prepared to eat my words. Everyone is privileged to miniaturize a tree in any style he wants to, but don't call it a bonsai if you are not prepared to follow the norms. That's the trouble with the western civilization when they adopt any foreign art. They want to change the rules of the game and start to call the rules on the other side "horse crap". That is what is so annoying. Do as you like but then why call it bonsai; create your own name for your creation and nobody will hold anything against you.
As for Vance questions, I readily admit I am not even a serious bonsai enthusiast. I haven't laid a hand in gardening until 5 years ago when the genetic diversity in hybridization intrigued me. But I have always admired the art of bonsai. I have seen some wonderful specimens and appreciate its finesse. I dabble with bonsai for fun and joy, to me it will always be a plaything, nothing to exhibit to anyone. That doesn't mean I am incapable of rating the quality of a specimen

jamkh

So as was stated in another thread, you know nothing about what you say. I can read about flying all day long. Doesn't mean I'm a pilot ready to teach others how it's done :-).

You have much to learn. Best to do so without drawing attention to yourself unless you are needing advice. You are in no position to be lecturing others that have grown bonsai for years on how it's done.

randy

Western growers HAVE won prizes in Japan (and everywhere else), and right now there's quite an argument going on about continuing indefinitely to 'honor' the Japanese style (vs cultivation) which has at times come to be called 'cookie cutter' (the triangle, the pads, etc. etc.) by many, and it seems to me that the majority has agreed that while Japan may have formalized the art it took from China, one does not necessarily need to slavishly follow their 'rules' and styles (suitable to Japanese native stock and climate, but not necessarily to ours) forever, no matter how creative or wonderful anyone else's work might be. Rules are there to learn from, but once mastered and understood, can be broken on occasion if the final result not only honors the spirit and proportions of bonsai, but in fact may take it to a new level - almost everything in the world, every 'perfect' thing, idea, design, etc. is eventually surpassed in favor of new things, keeping the old in mind as a guide, but finding sometimes even better ways to do things, and that's not progress for its own sake, or cheap thrills, but can be quite validly excellent. You do not have to like anything but the classic Japanese ways, but please don't denigrate others who may think otherwise.

Don't forget the time advantage many of the Japanese growers have.

Also, the styling of yamadori is entirely different than raising from seed. Yamadori are often collected with very well-established trunks. The training process continues from there. Refinement techniques do not equate to initial stages of training. To try to train a trunk such as that seen in some yamadori, from seed, with consistant pruning, will take tens or hundreds of years.

-Audric

Lucy I never claimed that the west had never won prizes in Japan but stated that your improvised (inferring on your chopped trunk technique) couldn't stand any chance of ever winning in Japan.
I couldn't agree more to your idea that we should stand on our own independent fron Japan. I am quite sure our gardening forefathers, before the advent of bonsai here, would have had potted genetically dawrfed trees and placed them on patios as specimen plants. The only problem is nobody then ever thought of giving it a name or proper recognition. Perhaps the time to break away is already ripe.

Jam, the so-called "commercialization" of bonsai began in Japan. You even mention it in your opening post. Originally, bonsai were collected specimens, but then became more popular and people began training bonsai propagated stock. It is then when many of the various training techniques employed today arose. I would even argue that it is when bonsai began to thrive as a practiced form of art.

-Audric

Jam, I'm sure that this website will be right up your alley: The Art of Bonsai Project.

-Audric

Thank you, Audric. I see you are most gifted young man and compassionate too. I wish I have half your talent.
I am not against originality, in fact I hate submitting myself to norms or rules and consider myself a definite rebel. Yamadori styling has produced beautiful specimens and stands proudly in its own class. It definitely imitates nature and bonsaiists have refined nature's masterpiece.
What I am against is the misconceived notion that the thickness of the trunk is a prime requisite of a champion bonsai specimen. On the contrary I believe the exaggerated thickened trunk is not an intended effect of bonsaiists but the natural response of a plant when confronted by limiting growth in the vertical and in the root system. Has the plant sensory powers to know the dynamics of forces acting upon it? I believe it has. It knows that when the root growth is restricted, its anchorage ability is unable to balance out the larger force it has to carry if its height is increased. It is this same sensory ability that the roots always grow in a direction opposite to the resultant force acting upon it. With the production of this food energy by photosynthesis, it must be utilized somewhere as nature abhors waste. Thus it goes to thicken the trunk, knowing that a broader base aids in stability.
We humans fail to realize the uncanny ability of plants to use its intelligence to raise its survival skills against the forces of nature or environment. I believe the plants have higher survival instincts or skills not found in the animal kingdom. We are at best second to them in their ability to adapt to changing conditions that threaten their existence. Does it explain why the dawn redwood has survived the ravages of nature in millions of years while dinosaurs failed? Interesting point to take note of.
If chopping the trunk makes the task of bringing out proportion and balance easier or better, I would welcome it. It does nothing except to satisfy our misconception that the thickened trunk is a necessary prerequisite in bonsai. That's the point I have been trying to stress but I think I have not expressed myself explicitly in my thread. I apologize for that.

I just got an PM , ref. this thread saying
" TROLL ALERT !!! "
Anyone know what that means ??

Hello Jam, I appreciate your nice words! And it seems like we're progressing through this discussion well.

I totally agree with you that a thick, stocky (i.e. "sumo") trunk is not necessary for a bonsai, nor is a tree necessarily a bonsai because it has a stocky trunk. There are many fine bonsai which have very (proportionately) thin trunks which convey a totally different message than those with thick trunks. However, thin-trunked or not, a well-designed bonsai is a well designed bonsai. This is not to say that the SAME design or technical approach to a bonsai featuring a thinner trunk will produce a similar-quality bonsai as one that features a thicker trunk.

Here's an interesting example, one which you may find to be representative or relevent to your argument. It is a Larch by Walter Pall, a rather renown and highly-respected bonsai artist (this may be an understatement). However, some of his bonsai spark controversy. In this case, people often urged him to cut back the deadwood, being out of proportion and if he did, then the bonsai would seem more powerful and the trunk thicker, etc. etc. etc. Walter did not (clearly), as it is a feature unique to the tree, and making it "short, stockier, and thicker" wouldn't make the tree any better as a bonsai. Is this what you're trying to get across?

I'm not too sure about the soundness of your horticultural points, but I am not an expert in that area. Remember, however, that many plants in addition to animals have gone extinct. It is not a phenomenon unique to animals.

-Audric

Raiun, here's a link to the definition of an internet troll.

And I think I've said this before (possibly in other forums), but it is easy for someone with good intentions and a controversial subject to be interpreted differently than as intended, simply because of the characteristics of forums and text-based communication (i.e. no body language, inflection, etc).

-Audric

Anyone care to guess where the concepts of "TRUNK CHOPING" came from? Care to guess who has been teaching the trunk chop? Care to guess who uses this technique?

THE JAPANESE? ya think.

My original questions have as yet to be answered, how long has this individual been growing bonsai. Lets see some results. My father was fond of saying: Put up or shut up. Not that I would be so harsh, but challenges as strident as those brought forth here require proof not rhetoric.

Vance Wood.

Sorry Vance,
I thought I had answered your question. I looked at the post and found that the question was not directly answered. I had only started in bonsai about 5 years ago and my starting came in out of a personal experience. In July 1999, I was in the city of Victoria on Vancouver Island and came across 2 trees which I had not seen before. Somehow they fascinated me and when I saw some seeds at the base of one tree germinating, I thought they must come from these trees. The ground was rock hard and I had no trovel but relied on my car key to dig 20 seedlings to take home. They were badly damaged in the roots and suffered severe dehydration by the time I reached home. I placed them in a glass house to see if they could pull through. At times I even forgot to water them and they of course did poorly until the frost hit. A few sprouted some tiny single leaves but not the compound leaves of their mistaken mother trees. A few died by next spring while those that survived looked stunted and in poor health. Unintentionally I had stressed these plants the way nature would stress them through cold and wind. It was then the thought of bonsai entered my mind. If stressing them keeps them small, then I decided to continue the torture for a few more years. By 3rd year they looked like good materials for bonsai. I had known the beauty and aesthetics of champion bonsai specimens from my numerous visits to Japan. But I had no knowledge whatsoever on how to create them; went to the Internet and hooked up bonsai. The first site that caught my eye was 'bonsai in China'. I went in because I had never seen their specimens and was curious. I found out they had a style of their own, which the Japanese would shun and perhaps looked down on.
So I decided that I would imitate the Chinese as most bonsai follow the Japanese. Now I hate following the rules of the game and decided to innovate. Like the Sezchuan style of right angled bends, I bought in a variation and created a different plane after each bend not the single plane which makes the tree rather upright. I had this one in training for 4 years but it is still a far cry from those I had admired. I think I could only show them after 3 to 5 years of further training and especially refinement. Even now as I decided to satisfy your request, I am hesitant because my readers would be tickled and start ridiculing me. Of course I will be cut into smithereens especially by one like you with 50 years of experience. I may be very new to bonsai but I can sense your annoyance and scorn in your messages (my reference to a hornet's nest). Between the 2 evils maybe it is wiser to be ridiculed without being laughed at; I am undecided now. No, I have decided to show my specimen by the summer of 2009, ie. if i am still alive, God willing.

Vance
I am surprised when you state the Japanese are the culprits of "chop the trunk" technique. Do you know if they are immigrants or the bonsai masters in Japan?
In some very old specimens in Japan, those over a hundred years old, they managed to keep the trunk still in fair proportion to its height. I wonder how they do that? How do they restrict the making of food in these plants: by starving them .Ha...ha

Jam, as a tree ages, its growth rate generally slows down. As well, the popular conception that bonsai are kept small through starving is also highly unfounded: bonsai trees are some of the best cared-for trees in the world. Continual pruning can greatly slow down a tree's rate of growth, but bonsai still grow in size. They evolve as time goes by.

Trunk chops are not necessary to keep a trunk in proportion, if this is what you are trying to say.

-Audric

From Japan. The trunk chop is used to creat a tapered trunk.

Vance, thank you. I am somewhat confused by your remark. How do they get the trunk to have a tapered look. You don't mean by creating a jin on the upper portion with a tapered look, like Walter Pall's work on the Larch?
Kindly enlighten and thanks again.

Jam, trunk chopping, although it strongly affects the final shape and size of the tree, is not the last thing to be done. It is often one of the first major stages of training. The trunk is grown until a desired thickness is acheived, then cut back. It is then allowed to grow until the new portion of the trunk reaches the desired thickness (i.e. slightly thinner than the lower portion), and then cut back at a higher point. The series of growing-and-cutting (AKA the "clip-and-grow" technique) gradually produce a tapered trunk.

{{gwi:20989}}, from The Bonsai Primer, shows the general concept of the techique.

If I'm not mistaken, a lot of azalea bonsai in Japan are grown simply for their trunks for quite a few years (I believe that this was in one of Colin Lewis' books, but I am not too sure). The author stated that this initial training, taking up to or over 30 years, was to develop a powerful, well-tapering trunk. After the trunk was established, the branches were trained. Again, take this with a grain of salt as I can't remember precisely where it's from or who said it.

-Audric

Of course, there are also styles (like literati) that don't call for fat trunks, though some tapering should be present, and chopping is not necessarily done for those, or even some others which may be acquired (from the wild or not) with just the right proportions for what you want to do, and you can keep them that way, even though they'll continue to grow, if slowly, by getting them right into a bonsai pot, with pruned roots, foliage, etc., and over time actually increasing the pot size slightly to stay in proportion to the slowly growing tree. It's all a balancing act!

The tapered look is accomplished by chopping the trunk, training up a new leader and allowing that to thicken till it is slightly smaller than the cop below it. Then this is chopped once again higher than the last chop and so on and again until the desired thickness, taper and height of trunk is reached. It is a continual process of cutting and replacing while regrowing the new leader each time smaller than the area below it. It could take three or four chops depending on the height of the tree.
Vance Wood.

Thank you, Audric, Vance and Lucy.
Now I see very well the validity of the objections from readers. I admit I had the wrong conception of the 'trunk chop technique'. I hadn't realize that it meant a series of chops to give the tapered look, which indeed is an ingenious idea. I offer my sincere apologies to one and all for the frustration I might have caused some readers, though it was done unintentionally. I am sorry again.

There is no need to apologize, but there is a need to educate yourself. When people first start out they get filled with all sorts of misinformation they think is truth even if some of it is imagined. You have to try to realize that there are some people on this forum and others you might come across that have been doing bonsai for many years and have been taught by many names you may have only read about.

For what it's worth, there have been far 'dumber' people posting here than you'd believe... and some awful attitudes (hardly ANYone ever apologizes for anything!), and you at least have an honest interest, have done some reading and do care about what's happening, so don't worry now, just get going and have some fun!

The apology is nice, but not expected or necessary :-). I wish you well in all your endeavors.

randy

Randy
I guess you're the one who has suffered the most serious migraine, double apologies.
I hope I have learned a good lesson here. My problem is I have stood still in a time cocoon and while bonsai techniques have been evolving, I have been outdated or outmoded. I saw bonsai shows from 1987 to 1994, which is a good 12 years behind. Funny you feel like knocking your head on the wall when I am constantly knocking mine and remaining ignorant of the fact. Is that what we call 'ignorance is bliss'.
Another point is I may be capable of judging the quality of a specimen, I should have stayed away from the techniques of developing a good specimen.
I observe another interesting point. An art critic is seldom an accomplished artist, each eye developing different skills from one another. Appreciation and creation stand worlds apart.
Another observation, when a person becomes a master in any skill or endeavor, he loses the art to critique the work of others. He has reached the pinnacle of human achievement 'master of oneself. I guess in a public forum like this we must guard ourselves against angry responses and avoid using harsh words towards one another. I admire Audric the most, who though youthful has understood compassion more than persons old enough to be his grandfathers.

Commercialization of bonsai has only improved bonsai. Let me proceed from a discussion a similar matter. Once upon a time in the US, there were only perhaps five or six television channels per city, and television was almost uniformly awful. In fact, it was once described as a "vast wasteland," but eventually it got so good it was only "half-vast," which pun you have to be familiar with colloquial English to enjoy.

Then came cable television, with hundreds of channels, and now we are digitally recording some of the most exciting, funny, scary, and educational shows ever seen, just so we don't miss any. Anyone for the new "Battlestar Galactica?"

Nevertheless, there is still a lot of equine organic waste out there.

Commercialization of bonsai has made possible companies like Brussel's Bonsai, New England Bonsai, Bonsai Northwest, and Dallas Bonsai Garden, all of which help American enthusiasts get their hands on proper materials, tools, and supplies.

That being said, perhaps a redefinition of "trunk chop," to something more akin to what really happens, would be appropriate.

Or are you saying that bonsai as an art should be confined to heirloom trees and the very wealthy and powerful?

Oh my god, Vance. We agree.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sashi-eda Bonsai

Chris:

Bound to happen someday. Speaking from both our vantage points tongue in cheek: Even a stoped watch is right twice a day.

It does amaze me though, how strong a stand many beginners will take on a misconception being convinced that some off the wall concept was handed down from God. I am not necessarily referring to this post but to others we have seen from time to time here and in other places.

In the profession where I am employed I get sent in to some pretty high end homes to repair some pretty high end furniture. I was sent to repair the marble top to a bathroom vanity and was told to take some marble cleaner with me. There is only one problem here.

As good and reasonable, and logical as it may sound there is no such thing as marble cleaner. Marble is one of those things that once stained will stay that way forever unless the surface is reground with diamond dust rubbing compound and a high speed buffer of some sort.

Much that some believe to be the way it is in bonsai falls into the same category; Seems reasonable, and logical and should be that way but just does not square with reality.

Not the beat a dead horse here, Jamkh, but what did you think that "trunk chop" was? It was very noble of you to apologize like that, and for that you should be commended. But I am curious to find out what the confusion was? It was no doubt a simple misunderstanding, but Im just wondering what it was? IÂve been in many "scorched earth" style arguments over the smallest misunderstandings. Perhaps it might help noobies that read this thread.

I think that he didn't realize the intial chop was followed by others after some new branches grew in, and felt it was 'cheating' to get an instant bonsai that way... but I'm sure he can tell you himself.

No_way,
I am having a difficult time trying to recollect my thoughts on the sequence of events that led to this rumble over a molehill. If you believe my explanation may help a newbie to avoid the pitfalls, then I would do my best.
Initially I read a thread where a newbie proposed to chop the trunk of his 5/6 foot tree at the point 2 and 1/2 feet high to train as a bonsai. I could not name the person who replied and agreed that this could be a good start; now I can't even recall where the thread was. From the discussion, I had the impression that the people who were providing the info were leading the newbie up the wrong path: i.e. an exaggerated thickened trunk is the prime requisite for a bonsai.
My first thread was made on 23 Oct in the title 'Miniaturizing a Live Oak', where I voiced my opinion why the trunk chop is not the best way in bonsai. Then this comment sort of irritated me
: Posted by bonsaikc z5-6 KCMO (My Page) on Mon, Oct 30, 06 at 18:24
Wayne,
You could not possibly be more wrong. The entire reply was horse crap! Someone spouting off about that which they know not.

And I did voice my irritation subsequently. So I decided to learn more about those objectionable persons whom I am encountering. Bonsaikc is top on my list and naturally entered his home page. Right before my eyes the first pic of his bonsai provided the proof that the chop technique meant chop the main trunk and then train a leader as continuation. Thus followed the thread titled 'Commercialization of Bonsai'. Had anyone pointed out that that the chop meant a series of chops to develop a tapered look, then all this hazzle could have been avoided. I accept that I bear the major brunt of the blame as ignorance is no excuse. What I find hard to accept is the outright rudeness and the high and mighty attitude of some who thinks too highly of themselves and placing themselves on the high bench becomes over judgmental. I am sorry I have to state my feelings with such abruptness and bluntness. Hey, this is not the only forum in the world and if anyone finds any opinions objectionable then just don't read his thread. As simple as that.

Wow, that's kind of harsh as well don't you think?

I'm sorry my stating my opinion with bluntness and abruptness was not acceptable.

By the way, lest anyone think I set myself up above others, let it be widely known that I have pointed out that that particular trunk-chopped tree has spread its atoms to the atmosphere. Among humans we call it "assuming room temperature."

I'm still trying to figure out what you said wrong! Expressing an opinion in a direct way (without directly insulting anyone) is not a crime and sometimes needs to be done to clarify a point. And is at least unpretentious!

Don't worry about it Chris, this guy is one of those individuals that has everything all worked out in his own mind and nothing you, me or the man in the moon is going to tell him will not be looked on negatively.