I can say the 5-1-1 is 5 parts pine fines, 1 part perlite, 1 part peat, and a tb sp of lime per gal of mix. Place the mix ina bag dump water and close the top. Then wait a day,then make holes in the bag, wait 2 weeks and your mix is ready.

The 5-1-1 changed the way I look at soil medium. Before I would have to have 80% perlite and 20% peat to get the same quality as the 5-1-1. And perlite is expensive.

I have 5 gal of peat and won't be getting anymore, just pine fines.

If you don't want to get into making the 5-1-1 you could add 2 gal of peat to a 2 cu ft bag of potting mix. It wont be as good though but will work very well.

I cant thank Al anymore after finding this nice mix!!!:)

"could add 2 gal of peat"

I am sorry, I meant perlite, just so I dont confuse.

Your regular garden plants have always done ok, whereas the 5-1-1 mix is meant to produce the (nearly) best growth possible in your plants, because it's optimized towards having proper drainage, aeration, and fertilization. Regular potting soil varies widely in content and drainage, from clay-like Hyponex to 90% sedge peat Scott's Professional Potting Mix. Plants will suffer in soil that stays either too wet or too dry all the time, and that breaks down in hot weather in one season. 5-1-1 also will last longer because it breaks down much slower.

You could put trees in potting soil, but be prepared for anything from worse performance to death from waterlogged soils. You'll also need to repot each tree at least once a year, maybe more often, to replace the soil.

"5-1-1 also will last longer because it breaks down much slower. "

It will last like 2-3 years depending on temp.

Peat based mix's last 1 year. I have nothing but good experience with peat based mix's and even better experience with the 5-1-1. Not sure why others are against peat based mix's, maybe they get pine fines very cheap, maybe they don't care about price. Peat based mix's need more time to dry out and people tend to overwater so maybe they do better with pine. I could see using pine fines for my house plants that will be in the same container for a long time but not my veggie garden where the plants will only be there one year then I discard the medium anyway. Its just if you can find pine fines well priced good luck.

Cathy - I'm usually pretty straight forward, and what I'm going to say may seem blunt, but it's true and offered in a kindly way.

You can't expect to learn everything at once - it just doesn't happen ..... and if you just give up - there's little chance you'll learn anything. So don't! ;-) We all tend to want to help those most who seem to be trying hardest to help themselves - for one thing it's easier to push someone up the ladder when they're trying to climb. ;-) It's ok to feel frustration, but just don't let it captain your ship & sail you to Forgetaboutit. I've been posting at this forum for a long time, and I know there are a number of 'regulars' whose advice you can rely on, that not long ago were in the same position you find yourself in.

Ask your questions. I'll offer the tip that if you ask them in reasonable numbers at any one time, you'll get a lot more response than if you scare people away with a long list. Often, you'll find that an experienced poster will anticipate most of your questions & get them out of the way before you even ask them.

Assembling the information you need to become a proficient container gardener is a lot like assembling a jigsaw puzzle. There are a number of articles posted that can provide you the basics - things like the information on soils and nutrition, or even on how to maintain trees in containers. Think of these basics like putting together the puzzle's border. Once you get the border complete - once you get the basics under your belt - the rest falls into place much faster.

When you ask, "Is there anything wrong with potting soil?", I think the best answer is an indirect one. You CAN grow healthy plants in commercially prepared potting soils based on fine particulates, but it's not nearly as easy as it could be, and the margin for error narrower than it would be, if you used a well-aerated, durable soil. In addition, in order to get the most from, and work most effectively with, the heavier soils, you'll need the same information and level of understanding as you would if you were using one of the other soils many of us use. This illustrates that it's understanding and implementing CONCEPTs that provides opportunity for us to improve our skillset, and through that, the level of satisfaction we get from the growing experience.

Hang in there! There's lots of help here if you want it. ;-)

Al

Yes, I agree 100%. Think of it like this, even if peat based is easy to find and less expensive in some cases pine lasts 3x longer and does better when the plant is growing in it. So if you could look at it like that you get a better deal with the pine fines.

Al,

I am sorry that I have said pine fines are hard to find as things differ area to area. I should be able to find pine fines easy where I live but I just can't. I found a replaement, its coco bark chips adn it's cheap. I have only used coco that is more like peat.

Al, if you will even give me the time at this point, which I would not blame you if you dont, could I use these coco chips as replacment? No lime?

MasterGardener, Thank you for that explanation of the Gritty Mix. I copied and pasted it into a Word file that I'm starting so that I can learn more about container gardening. I really do want to learn. I guess it's so overwhelming because there seems to be so much information, and I'm a very slow reader, always was...and I have attention deficit disorder, so it's hard to concentrate on what I'm reading. I can read something and forget it soon after I've read it. Mostly when I read something I have to have complete quiet with nobody around here, so I try to do it when the others are at work (my husband, son, and daughter). I'm glad you corrected the "peat" and put in "perlite" instead because I would have either been confused when I really read it later on or wouldn't have picked up on that at all. Now I just have to figure out where to get these ingredients. I have bought lime at the hardware store downtown several times to put in the garden, and I've bought peat moss (I guess that's the same as peat?) there and at Lowe's I'm sure between those two places I'll find everything that I need for the Gritty Mix.

ykerzner, I appreciate your explaining the reason behind the Gritty Mix. That makes a lot of sense actually. I wish I had thought of that! ;-)

Al, What can I say...you've convinced me that I should stick it out and attempt to learn all of this. Who'd have ever thought there'd be so much to know about container gardening! :-O I just figured put the tree in potting soil and when it gets too big, trim off the top and/or move the tree over into a bigger container.

I don't know how you figured out this Gritty Mix, but from the description it sounds like a great thing, and I'm willing to plant my hackberry and crabapple trees in this. It's so nice that you're willing to share this information with other people.

I might not be on here every day, but I will stop in and do some reading and ask questions, a few at a time because I'd hate to scare you all away. ;-) I am willing to climb the ladder if you all don't mind giving me a push up. :-)

Okay, here are two of my many questions that I'm sure I'll have:
1. What is a basal root flare?
2. With both re-potting and potting up, do you need a bigger pot or not always? How do you know when you should use a bigger pot or if you can keep the tree in the same one?

Thanks very much! You guys are great and very understanding.
Cathy

'Basal' (of the base) refers to the tree's base - thus 'basal'. The basal root flare is the portion of the tree or shrub where the plant makes the transition from stem to roots. The trunk 'flares' or gets wider where the surface roots emerge - that is the basal root flare.

Potting up, by definition, includes a larger pot, or moving up in pot size. Repotting, which includes root pruning, doesn't always include moving the plant to a larger pot. Often, you can repot the same tree into the same pot several times before a larger pot is required.

There is no hard & fast rule that you can use to determine whether or not a larger pot is advisable, unfortunately. Usually, that is determined by how much of the root mass you can safely remove during repotting. When you have the experience of a few repots under your belt, you'll be able to intuitively take into account the vigor of the plant and the volume of foliage the roots will have to support. For the first few repots, and especially if you're using a fast (well-aerated and free-draining) soil, err on the larger side. It's difficult to over-pot when using soils like the gritty mix or the 5:1:1 mix, but easy to over-pot when using heavy, water-retentive soils.

Al

So "whats wrong with potting soil?" The methods often used to sell prepared potting soil, uses appeals to the ease of use, such as "only needs water every two weeks" or something similar. It is purposely made to retain water, not to drain well. For the inexperienced gardener, this seems to be a worthy goal, which helps sell the product. The very worst of these will kill the plant very fast, sometimes before you can sell it, instead of after. The fact that some of the biggest names in the industry are doing this, I find reprehensible. When next you see a bag of Hyponex for sale read the fine print and see who is selling it. Al

Al, Okay, now I know what a basal root flare is. When a person cuts out some of the roots when repotting, I assume that you shouldn't go near the BRF, correct? I also understand about moving up (or not) to a bigger pot size. I hope I'm not too nervous doing my first repotting, wondering if I'll do something wrong. The first thing I have to do is look around in the stores to find the ingredients for the gritty mix.

Another question I have is where do epsom salts come into play? I say mention of them, but they're not included in the gritty mix. I've also seen people mention other things (I can't think what offhand though) that I thought they must be using as substitutes for all/some of your ingredients. I really don't get why epsom salts would be added to planting medium. I always thought that salt kills plants.

It sounds like the people who makes potting soil haven't done there homework of what makes for a good planting medium. Being that I used potting soil for all of my potted plants that I have outside in the spring and summer, I bet that all that rain we had last year had them water logged. So is it always best to plant container plants in the gritty mix or are there exceptions? Should potting soil be used at all? I hate to see the plants being killed or growing poorly if it could be prevented. I know that I bought Hyponex potting soil one time and it seemed so compact and heavy that I never bought it again. I've been getting a nice (what I think it nice anyway) potting soil at a nearby garden center. I don't know who sells Hyponex and I'm not sure offhand how who even sells the stuff anymore. The store where I bought that bag has gone out of business, like a lot of places in this area.

Cathy

Epsom salts come in where you require magnesium and don't want to raise the pH. Many fertilizers (such as MG) don't have magnesium or calcium. That is one reason you put dolomitic lime in, which is to raise the pH of the acidic soil (5-1-1 is naturally acidic) and supply these two elements.

Question is, what if you want an acidic soil? You would not want to use dolomite for blueberries. In this case, you would skip the dolomite, and use epsom salts to supply magnesium (and gypsum for calcium).

Simple rule: neutral pH or higher, use dolomitic lime. Low pH, use epsom salts and gypsum.

The roots emanating from the basal root flare serve only to anchor the plant and serve as conductive plumbing - water & nutrients from roots to shoots (and leaves) - food and other bio-compounds from shoots to roots. They can be shortened, if you can shorten them w/o leaving the plant with a root system unable to keep up with water demands. I usually concentrate on removing roots growing downward, upward, and back toward the center, then assess. There is a lot of suggestions about how to work on roots in the thread about containerized trees. Let me know if you get stuck.

;-) If nutrients were plant food, we could accurately say that plants eat salts. Plants take up nutrients in the form of salts - and while too much salt, or the wrong salts, can quickly kill plants, we should actually be striving to ensure the right salts are in the soil at the ratio in which plants use them, and at a concentration neither so high that it inhibits water (and nutrient) uptake, nor so low that deficiencies occur.

If you're using the gritty mix and a fertilizer without Ca or Mg (like MG soluble 24-8-16 0r 12-4-8) you need a source for the nutrients (Ca/Mg). Gypsum and Epsom salts supply Ca and Mg (respectively), and do it without raising pH. Once you decide on a fertilizer, we can help you decide what you might want to supplement with, if anything.

I'm probably the strongest proponent of well-aerated and durable soils on all of Garden Web, but I'm no where near as harsh on the heavy, commercially prepared soils as many others who have started (or have been) using soils like the gritty mix or the 5:1:1 mix. I think I'm both fair and realistic when I say that you CAN grow healthy plants in the heavier soils, but it won't be as easy, and the margin for grower error is substantially reduced. Since the margin for error, especially in the areas of watering and fertilizing is reduced, you can see how quickly the opportunity for plants to grow to their potential is affected by less than ideal habits or influences.

I use both the gritty mix and the 5:1:1 mix. I use the 5:1:1 mix for plants that will be in the same soil for 1-2 growth cycles, and the gritty mix for 2-? growth cycles. The gritty mix, properly made, never 'wears out'. Plants will become root bound to the point they should have a pruning and soil change long before any thought of structural collapse. In fact, there is collapse prevention built into the soil in the fact that bark is limited to a 1/3 fraction of the whole. Even if all the bark were to break down, the soils structure would still be fine, based on the remaining 2/3 inorganic component.

I spend a lot of time helping people, but I'm not selling recipes. ;-) I'm selling a concept. I want growers to understand why free-draining and durable soils work so well, and how to build and utilize them if they choose. The recipes are just what I have found to be the best way of implementing the concept. Once you understand the concept and get a feeling for what ingredients are available, implementing is easy.

Al