YR, I grow all my clethras in a such shady conditions that clematises will not bloom there, so I never even attempted to try such combo, but I think that clethra with its suckering habit might not be a good host for the clemmi. Another possible contra to this idea is that clethra's lateral branches are not thick enough to support a massive vine. On another side I think this could be a lovely combo, especially considering the fact that clethras leafing out very late and clematis foliage will decorate it early in a season. Hmmm...now when I start thinking about your idea, I think I might try Jacmanii on one of mine C.barbinervis which is approaching 12' mark and have top 6' in a full sun. Thanks for idea.

I sure did and didn't care what they thought. Just a simple copy and paste from excel to give you an idea. Species / Cultivar / Type / Quantity / Purchase / Where / Location / Notes Aesculus Homestead Tree 1 4/1/2010 Johnson Left Side Yard Trim out dead wood Amur Maackia Straight Tree 1 9/8/2008 Johnson Right Side Corner Patio Trim out dead wood Arboritae Danica Evergreen 1 8/31/2007 Steins Left side front step Azaela Rosebud Shrub 3 10/1/2008 Steins Died Berberis Crimson Pygmy Shrub 2 8/14/2008 Heritage Right Side back side lotline Betula River Tree 1 8/21/2007 Heritage Back corner of house - right side lot line Betula Heritage Tree 1 4/19/2008 Steins Front corner of house - right side lot line Euonymos Dwarf Burning Shrub 1 8/31/2007 Steins Back corner of house Campanpula Blue Clips Perrenial 6 8/1/2009 Johnson border plant along entry walk Pick dead blooms for constant rebloom Aronia Black Iroqouis Beauty Shrub 3 8/19/2008 Heritage Behind river birch Echinacea Purple Perrenial 2 5/16/2008 Heritage In front of fireplace Echinacea Kim's Kneehigh Perrenial 4 7/23/2008 Heritage In front of fireplace Coreopsis Zagreb Perrenial 3 6/16/2008 McKay Behind Seven Son Flower - Back corner lot line Shear back in march to a few inches above ground Leucanthemum Shasta Snowcap Perrenial 3 7/23/2008 Heritage border plant along entry walk cut back to ground in march Daylily Little Wine Cup Perrenial 4 6/16/2008 McKay border plant along entry walk cut back to ground in march Daylily Strawberry Candy Perrenial 6 9/1/2008 McKay In front of Wolf Eyes dogwood and Lilac tree cut back to ground in march Daylily Awesom Blossom Perrenial 2 4/1/2009 McKay In front of River Birch cut back to ground in march Cornus Ivory Halo Shrub 3 5/26/2008 Heritage Right side lot line Cut oldest stems to the ground. Can be cut back a few feet in march if growing out of bounds Forsythia Fiesta Shrub 4 4/13/2009 Lieds Front of patio to left Can be cut back after blooms in march Fothergilla Mount Airy Shrub 2 9/1/2009 McKay Left side lot line inbetween Celebration maples Gernaium Jolly Bee Perrenial 3 4/1/2009 McKay In front of Celebration maples and hawthrones at back lot line Gernaium Rozanne Perrenial 3 8/18/2009 Johnson In front of Celebration maples and hawthrones at back lot line Ginkgo Autumn Gold Tree 1 4/1/2009 Lieds Front yard left side Crataegus Crusader Tree 1 8/1/2009 Wendland Back lot line left side Honeysuckle Cool Splalsh Shrub 3 5/2/2009 Heritage Inbetween Crusader and Swamp Oak Hydrangea Quickfire Shrub 2 8/14/2008 Heritage Inbbetween Autumn Blaze Pear and Maple + Autumn Blaze Maple and Lilac Hydrangea Twist and Shout Shrub 3 5/8/2009 Steins Died Hydrangea Tardiva Shrub 1 9/10/2009 Johnson Outside masterbed back window Hypericum Ames Shrub 3 9/1/2008 McKay Rightside patio Juniperus Andorra Evergreen 2 8/21/2007 Heritage Left and right side patio Juniperus Parsons Evergreen 1 10/1/2008 Steins Next to Leonard Magnolia, back corner left Juniperus Hughes Evergreen 1 7/31/2009 McKay Back right corner lot line Cercidiphyllum japonicium Straight Tree 2 10/9/2009 Johnson Behind Hawthorns and back lot line Syringa Dwarf Korean Shrub 3 8/21/2007 Heritage Left side house Syringa Summer Snow Tree 1 9/8/2008 Johnson Right side back lot line Magnolia Merril Tree 1 5/26/2008 Heritage Right back corner of house Magnolia Royal Star Shrub 1 7/21/2008 Steins Front corner of house - right side lot line Magnolia Leonard Messil Shrub 1 7/21/2008 Steins Side lot line, back left Malus Coralburst Tree 1 8/16/2008 Lammscapes Right side back lot line Acer Freeman Celebration Tree 2 8/27/2007 Heritage Left side of house Acer Freeman Autumn Blaze Clump tree 1 4/1/2009 Lieds Right side side lot line towards corner cut back to ground in march Chrysanthemum Mammoth Dark Pink Perrenial 2 8/30/2009 Johnson Near Riverbirch and Leonard Magnolia Physocarpus Summerwine Shrub 1 8/21/2007 Heritage Backlot line left side Can be cut back after blooms in june (just above ground if necessary) Physocarpus Diablo Shrub 4 5/3/2008 Heritage Left side lot line inbetween Celebration maples Can be cut back after blooms in june (just above ground if necessary) Pyrus calleryana Autumn Blaze Tree 1 8/21/2009 Heritage Left corner of house to the left Pinus Dwarf Mungo Evergreen 1 8/31/2007 Steins Right side patio Potentilla Pink Beauty Shrub 3 9/1/2008 McKay Border shrub right side back lot line Rose Magic Meidiland Shrub 2 4/1/2009 McKay Right side side lot line Cut back 2' above ground in march Rose Accents Ole Shrub 4 5/2/2009 Heritage Right side corner patio + front yard to the left by Ginkgo Cut back 2' above ground in march Rose Carpet Pink Supreme Shrub 3 8/1/2009 Steins Right side front yard in front of Birch Cut back 2' above ground in march Rose EE Sunrise Sunset Shrub 3 8/24/2009 Heritage Front of entry walkway Cut back 2' above ground in march Rose Whiete Meidiland Shrub 3 8/26/2009 McKay Border plant in front of baywindow Cut back 2' above ground in march Rose Pink Knock Out Shrub 1 8/26/2009 McKay Left side of bay window Cut back 2' above ground in march Athela Minerva Shrub 1 9/2/2007 Lammscapes Left side of house Leafs out very late Athela Aphrodite Shrub 1 5/1/2009 Steins Right side corner of house Leafs out very late Amelanchier x grandiflora Autumn Brilliance Tree 1 5/3/2008 Heritage Right side of house near air conditioner Heptacodium miconioides Straight Tree 1 10/9/2009 Johnson Right side back corner lot line Spirea Goldmound Shrub 3 8/21/2007 Heritage border plant front corner of house Spirea Goldflame Shrub 7 8/21/2007 Heritage back of house near masterbed window + left side patio Spirea Snowmound Shrub 3 5/11/2008 Steins inbetween Celebration maples Spirea Birchleaf Shrub 3 8/19/2008 Heritage borderplant for Crusader Hawthorn back right lot line Spirea Fritsch Shrub 4 10/5/2009 Johnson borderplant for Seven Son Flower, back right corner lot line Spirea Magic Carpet Shrub 3 10/6/2009 Johnson borderplant for Autumn Blaze maple, right side side lot line Sumac Gro-low Shrub 3 10/4/2009 Johnson border plant in front of Coralburst Crabapple Veronica Purpleicious Perrenial 3 6/16/2008 McKay Right side patio Viburnum Mohican Shrub 2 8/22/2008 Lammscapes Right side side lot line Viburnum Blackhaw Shrub 1 8/29/2008 Steins behind celebration maple Viburnum Carlesii Shrub 1 9/1/2008 McKay front patio Viburnum Summer Reflection Shrub 3 4/1/2010 Johnson inbetween Celebration maples Weigelia Fine Wine Shrub 4 8/21/2007 Heritage side bay window Salix purpurea 'Nana' Shrub 4 5/25/2008 Steins inbetween hawthorns at back lot line Must cut back 1-2' above ground in March EVERY year Salix integra Hakuro Nishiki' Shrub 2 8/14/2008 Heritage inbetween hawthorns at back lot line Must cut back 1-2' above ground in March EVERY year Hamamelis vernalis straight Shrub 1 9/8/2008 Johnson Left corner of house Taxus cuspidata straight Evergreen 6 8/21/2007 Heritage right side of house Clethra Ruby Spice Shrub 1 5/1/2010 Minors Right side of entry back corner Requires supplemental water Clethra Sixteen Candles Shrub 1 5/1/2010 Minors in front of Sandcherry, side of entry Requires supplemental water Fothergilla Blue Shadow Shrub 1 5/1/2010 Minors side of entry Requires supplemental water Fothergilla Gardeni Shrub 1 5/1/2010 Minors side of entry Requires supplemental water Heurcha Georgia Peach Perrenial 3 5/1/2010 Minors side of entry Requires supplemental water Salvia Blue Hill Perrenial 3 6/1/2010 Bluestone behind White Meidland rose Relocate - temp. spot Chrysanthemum Sheffield Perrenial 3 6/1/2010 Bluestone behind White Meidland rose Relocate - temp. spot Hydrangea Tickled Pink Shrub 1 6/1/2010 Steins left side entry Carpinus Carolinia Straight Tree 1 6/1/2010 Minors right side front yard Tilia Tomentosa Sterling Silver Tree 1 6/1/2010 Minors front front yard Cornus Kousa Wolf Eyes Tree 1 5/1/2010 Minors right side patio Quercus Bicolor Straight Tree 1 5/1/2010 Minors left corner back lot line Enoyonmus Blondy Shrub 3 6/1/2010 Lowes inbetween hawthorns at back lot line Sweetspire Henrys Garnet Shrub 1 6/1/2010 Steins behind Macckia, right corner patio Aster Woods Pink Perrenial 1 5/1/2010 Steins Near ginkgo, alive? cut back to ground in march Aster Farmington Perrenial 1 6/1/2010 Steins Near ginkgo, alive? cut back to ground in march Rose Northern Accents Lena Shrub 1 6/1/2010 Steins patio front Cut back 2' above ground in march Barberry Rosy Glow Shrub 3 5/1/2010 Steins behind Crusader hawthorn, back lot line Boxwood Green Velvet Shrub 3 5/1/2010 Minors Under baywindow Barberry Concorde Shrub 2 6/1/2010 Steins right side side lot line Hydrangea Invincible Spirit Shrub 1 6/1/2010 Home Depot next to Athela, by Silver Maple at back right corner Purple Leaf Sandcherry Tree 1 - - Right side entry way Cut down, to big for this spot

Ted - The really sad part ted is that I already knew all that from the past and still typed "she" so like I said it was the sudden exposure to the sun that got me. :) safaribabe - this is a debate/discussion we have here often and you'll find many previous discussions on the issue here via the search if you want to read them. But the bottom line is that you aren't going to get a definitive answer. The opinions are far too firm on both sides of the issue. So ultimately it is up to you. Like hoosier said above, a dwarf variety? Sure. Even I have done that. A determinate? Probably with extra work and care. I've tried it but generally found it a waste of time. An indeterminate? Some do in 5 gallons and they agree that it takes extra work and some agree the results are limited to varying degrees when compared to the same plant in a larger container. For me, I've proven to myself that it is a total waste of time and energy to use anything less than 10 gallon containers and I grow lots of tomato plants in 10 gallon SWC's. But then I am into maximum production, maximum plant health, and non-stressful gardening, not extra work in order to sample a few of many different kinds so my focus is very different from yours. Never heard of anyone successfully "growing 2 to a 5 gallon bag" except as Hoosier said, when using an auto-feed, semi-hydroponic set up. Sure, set up auto timers, fertilizer injectors, and use hydro systems and fertilizer formulas and you can grow a plant in a 2 inch cube of rock wool. But that isn't what you are proposing. But they are your plants and your set up to experiment with so give it a go and see if it works to your satisfaction. I wish you luck. Dave

@mamapinkey: Abridged answer: arguably any detergent in any temperature will clean better in soft water vs hard water, all other things being equal. Long-winded version: Soft water cleans everything better at all temperatures, by virtue of being soft water. This is due to the lower mineral deposit content in soft water. So the softer the water, the closer it will be to approaching distilled water (which, by way of comparison, is the ultimate soft water, with 0 parts per million (ppm) mineral content, since distilled water is created from condensation formed by steam, so there's nothing in it but pure h2o). The mineral deposit contents of your water hijack your detergents. The detergents latch on to the minerals instead of making their way to their designated destination (the dirt in your clothes), since the minerals will always get to the detergent first as soon as the water touches it. So the higher your water mineral content, the less detergent ends up left over and available to do what it's supposed to do. High mineral content is referred to as hard water (usually 150/200ppm+, depending who you ask). Because soft water has much less interference from mineral content, everything gets cleaner faster, and better, all while using less soap/detergent, and less residue remains after rinsing. Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but figured it'd be good to just put that out there in case anyone is reading who has heard "soft" and "hard" water thrown around, but without much clarification (I absolutely did not know the difference until I started having skin issues due to laundry detergent residue allergies about a year and a half ago). So back to your question: Soft water doesn't really require a detergent as well-built as this one (in any temperature). In either hot or cold soft water, a detergent like this might end up being overkill, as the sheer volume of water softening agents it contains indicates to me that it's designed for use in much harder water. So back to soft water. In soft water, it doesn't even matter, for example, whether your detergent is missing phosphates, which is a huge gripe nowadays (effectively, phosphate is pretty much a glorified water softener...see where this is going?), and you can get your clothes cleaner, in any temperature, with nearly any detergent (all other things being equal). People pay thousands of dollars to have whole-house water softeners installed because it just cleans stuff better (dishes, too), and it's also easier on your washing machine (less mineral/detergent residue). As far as the ingredients go... I'm super excited to see TAED in a US detergent in conjunction with the sodium carbonate peroxide (aka sodium percarbonate), which is the oxygen bleach. The TAED is a cold water bleach activator that's usually just found in Euro detergents (and they've been doing the eco thing so much longer, so their stuff tends to work better, in my experience). I don't use cold water, but think the science behind it is cool, for its own sake. And even though I purchased bulk sodium percarb off of Amazon, I've never been able to get the dosage amount quite right on my own without weakening my clothes (store-bought oxygen bleaches contain too many extra foaming ingredients for me since I use hot soft water)...but I love how well it cleans... And I get excited when a detergent contains a decent amount of it (they've obviously buffered it somehow). Per my original post, the sa8 did not work for me, but I'd recommend it to people who prefer to wash their stuff in cold water, and who also have hard water. I ended up returning my box of it to my dad (braving his disappointed look, lol), since I use hot water and it's very soft @72ppm, so this stuff actually foamed up too much for me for those reasons, which made rinsing difficult (the dark side of soft water haha). And no, I'm not an Amway sales rep. Are you?