Ohhhh, thank you Sheila! Those Austins I planted this spring were all own-root and all look perfectly healthy and have grown and bloomed beautifully. I will just have to hope that most of my new grafted roses will be healthy and, if not, complain to DA about it after the fact. Is RMV spread to existing healthy roses planted in the same bed? In the beginning of my rose gardening adventure, some 8 or 9 years ago, I bought only own-root from Heirloom but then I got stubborn about buying from them when they began to charge so much for them and closed their business to the public. It was so enjoyable to drive over and spend the day there when the previous owners still had it. Invariably, I came away with half a dozen or so new beauties. It felt like a mini-vacation almost. So, I got stubborn. I hope I haven't shot myself in the foot and will end up with diseased roses. Kicking myself with only one good foot wouldn't work too well. I will hope for the best.

The RMV will not spread other healthy roses. Your next batch will probably work as well as your own root ones as chances are most of DA stock is carrying RMV even their own root ones.

The comment was made: " The RMV will not spread other healthy roses. "

H.Kuska comment: As used in this discussion, RMV is not an actual virus. You would have to test to see which virus or viruses your rose has and then look up the mode of spread(s) that are expected in your temperature zone.

If we look at one of the common rose viruses PNRSV we find:

A June 6, 2020 publication:

Title:: "Encyclopedia of Plant Viruses and Viroids". in the section: "Rosa spp. (Rose)"

Authored by: Sastry, K.S., Mandal, B., Hammond, J., Scott, S.W., and Briddon, R.W.

Published by: Springer, New Delhi.

See: Rosa spp. (Rose) | SpringerLink

States the following:

"Prunus necrotic ringspot virus (PNRSV)

Taxonomic position

Genus: Ilarvirus Family: Bromoviridae

PNRSV occurs worldwide, in the majority of the Rosa spp. growing areas (Curtis and Moran 1986; Wong et al. 1988; Moury et al. 2001; Sala-Rejczak and Paduch-Cichal 2005; Rakhshandehroo et al. 2006; Yardimci and Culal 2009; Milleza et al. 2013; He et al. 2015; Mitrofanova et al. 2018). The virus-infected rose plants show symptoms such as chlorotic and necrotic ringspots on leaves, leaf mottling, color breaking of petals, and bud failure (Fulton 1976; Moran et al. 1988; Abdel-Salam et al. 2008). Vein-banding may occur from PNRSV infections after prolonged periods of temperature above 21 °C. Roses infected with some strains of PNRSV also showed symptoms of necrotic streaks on the stem, and flowers remained undeveloped and malformed (Moury et al. 2001). When PNRSV was present with other viruses such as ArMV and RSDaV, an oak-leaf pattern was often observed on the leaves (Milleza et al. 2013). The virus is transmitted by thrips vectors, the virus present in/on pollen, entering the host through injuries caused by thrips while feeding. The virus is transmissible mechanically and has a very wide host range infecting species in 21 dicotyledonous families. The virus is also transmissible by root grafting and by seed (Abdel-Salam et al. 2008; Golino et al. 2011). This virus spreads primarily by using virus-infected buds, scions, or rootstocks (Casper 1973; Barbara 1981). For more details of PNRSV, refer to Prunus persica."

Oh, Henry.

@Sheila z8a Rogue Valley OR I am chuckling about your comment to Henry, how funny. I'm not scientific minded in the least but I appreciate Henry's input. Thanks Sheila, you have relieved my mind. I will stop worrying about it and just enjoy. I have been on a buying binge and so look forward (ugh!) to tons of hard work digging and planting more than 30 roses in the spring. My eyes have always been bigger than my abilities! I need a garden work crew to keep up with my ideas. Where are you located? We are just outside La Center, WA, near Vancouver and Portland.

As Henry has quoted above, so shall I quote Henry: "This virus spreads primarily by using virus-infected buds, scions, or rootstocks".

That means the odds of a rose infected with PNRSV (or similar) spreading the infection to other roses in your garden is nearly zero. That is all you need to know. The rest is 99.95% speculation and doom-seeking.

Crow, I am 30 miles North of California in the Rogue Valley. You are in a nice area too.

Paul Barden , hello and thank you as well for easing my fears! Are you the famous rosarian Paul Barden? If so, it's a pleasure to meet you - if not, it's a pleasure to meet you anyway. I am quite sure I have a book by you or a couple of your roses. I think I am in the beginning stages of a serious addiction!

Sheila, nice area you live in. It will be fun to compare notes with you since we have the same zone but I know even with that, micro climates and weather and soil influences everything. Have a lovely rest of the day!

The following was stated: ""This virus spreads primarily by using virus-infected buds, scions, or rootstocks".

That means the odds of a rose infected with PNRSV (or similar) spreading the infection to other roses in your garden is nearly zero."

H.Kuska comment: The word "primary" does not mean "nearly zero".

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/primary

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also. the observed mosaic symptoms may be caused by one or more other viruses such as the aphid spread rose spring dwarf.

rose spring dwarf (google.com)

Yes, Henry, we know all that. What happens at the very fringe of possibility is rarely of concern to actual gardeners growing roses.

@strawchicago z5

@User

Friends,

I have a Heritage rose own root from Heirloom Roses HR that bloomed spring 2022 for first season with RSV on below few leaves. HR no longer sell Heritage after I reported it to them. I removed about 15 leaves in spring w/ RMV. . I saw it again on maybe 8 leaves once in fall & removed leaves. Then I did not see it again. It bloomed well & is still non-stop blooming! It’s so far very happy vigorous high performing rose!

if RMV is supposed to be spread by bud, scion or root stock, then how can an ”own root,” get it?

I just can’t remove it as it is such a beautiful excellent performer! No one sells Heritage own root?

KittyNYz6 did you have it tested for which actual virus or viruses it has?

Kitty, own-root roses get RMV because they were cuttings taken from a mother plant with RMV. I have a couple of own-root roses with RMV which were propagated down the line over and over from an original budded variety that (most likely) got infected from the rootstock.

Kitty, Susan just explained it for you. It had to have been someone taking cuttings from a previously infected (grafted) plant. It happens often.

The following was stated: " What happens at the very fringe of possibility is rarely of concern to actual gardeners growing roses. "

H.Kuska comment: please explain how the data that I presented (particularly at https://ucanr.edu/sites/ncpnrose/files/330352.pdf ) can be interpreted as being at the very fringe of possibility?

----------------------------------------

Here's a perfect example: I have a wonderful plant of Monet that I got from Vintage in the early to mid 2000s. It was a 1996 intro by Great Western Roses (probably a pretty sketchy company, sort of like Coiner for those of you old enough to remember their roses back in the day) based in Arizona. I'm sure they grafted it onto virused Huey and sold it wherever as a body bag. Turns out it's actually a fabulous rose, so Vintage got it and propagated it as own-root. It's now completely out-of-commerce, so I am working on propagating it for fellow enthusiasts. But it's virused. My point being that Vintage obtained a virused rose and sold own-roots from that mother plant. As Paul said, it happens often.

Thank you Susan and Paul.

Henry K, Thank you for the Texas A&M research. interesting they are partnering with ARE! Very cool!

To add to what Susan has just said, bear in mind that if you purchase an own-root plant of almost any heirloom Hybrid Tea or Floribunda that was introduced between 1900 and 1970 (somewhat arbitrary choice of dates, but thereabouts), it was at some point propagated from a plant that was budded to an understock variety. How do I know? Because there were many decades during which every modern rose was sold grafted onto an understock. There was no other way to obtain it.

And so, if it was originally sold as budded and virused, and was subsequently propagated by cuttings, all of the resulting plants were virused too. The odds of acquiring an heirloom HT with virus is quite high, unless the nursery offering the cultivar has tested the mother plant and shown it to be clean.

There is a Climbing Floribunda in commerce, bred by Ralph Moore and introduced by Marsh's Nursery in 1952, as a grafted plant. Apparently these plants were virused (or a percentage were) because only one specimen of it was ever found (within the past 20 years) and it was virused. That plant was propagated - because it was going to go extinct otherwise - and distributed. So if you acquire 'Climbing Yellow Sweetheart' today, you're getting a virused plant, for sure. But there are many, many roses in commerce that exist only as virused plants. Its an unfortunate consequence of decades of bad nursery practices.

If the information about PNRSV as posted above is correct, then it can be spread by pollen and seed as well. Meaning that seedlings will also likely be virused. So one will have to be very careful about what plants to use for breeding purposes. It makes you wonder.

In practice, PNRSV does not spread easily through sexual reproduction. It’s not worth investing a lot of energy to wonder about.

This is what I have written about the subject of PNRSV being transferred through rose seeds:

use of infected rose pollen (google.com)

The temperature dependence of the rose immune system is discussed at:

temperature and rose mosaic virus (google.com)

Its a fact: if you go looking for disasters, its inevitable that you’ll find one.

Here's an interesting article where David Austin's operations director, Tim Smith, gives his side of the story as to why certain varieties have been pulled. You think he reads this forum? :)

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/nov/11/why-climate-change-means-some-english-roses-will-bloom-no-longer

Steve: I read the above, thanks for the link. It's about breeding what's best for England, rather than hot & dry USA.

I grew A. Shopshire Lad as own-root, it has dark-green leaves and doesn't like acidic rain, thus best in hot & dry climate like CA. Munstead Wood is fantastic for a friend in CA with only 12 inch of rain, and also fantastic in my alkaline clay, but NOT best for acidic & high rain England.

What's NOT good for England works well for USA, like Evelyn which can take 100 F heat and bloom with my alkaline tap water at pH 9.

Somehow, I am not buying that explanation for disappearing DA varieties.

Nor am I.

Based on that flimsy explanation, should we expect to see 95% of the Heirloom roses we grow vanish from catalogs soon also?? No more 'Tiffany' or 'Mister Lincoln' or 'Fragrant Cloud', because of course, they don't grow well anymore. Pffftttt.

For DA, its all about marketing.

I read that article yesterday posted on my other rose forum. I raised the same skepticism. The OP of the article is a Wall Street analyst and countered by saying that huge corporations are basing big decisions for the future based on climate change. Okay fine, but I'm sorry, I still don't believe for a moment that DA is basing their decisions on climate change. It's their ruthless attempt to corner their market and suppress their old roses from being sold. And I thought exactly the same thing as Paul about the really old classics and OGRs, but specifically how DA offers many of them in their catalog.

Well, my thought was that the USA has a wide range of climactic conditions, much wider than England. So if those roses mentioned in the article were so vulnerable to any change in climate, it would have been revealed years ago in the USA market. And I think there are some varieties that work better in England than in the USA, and vice versa. But look at the many older DA roses thriving in the various parts of the USA, and it starts to make the premise of the article look rather shaky.

I have recently acquired an own-root Evelyn (in Europe) that would appear to be infected with RMV and I have seen a couple of Evelyn's online recently in vlogs that are the same. And on a rose I got direclty from DA Europe as well. A blogger recently noted that LEH is no longer possibly being produced because of issues with the rootstock without being more specific. I find that the "bad Austins"--the ones that are being or have been discontinued---are better than the "good DA roses" that are being touted on the site. But most of my DA plants have failed to thrive, stingy bloomers especially, and so I started buying something else and found that even supposedly "difficult" non-DA roses like Black Baccara are healthy and pump out roses more than most of my DA's, some of which have just simply been shovel-pruned because who wants to care for a plant all summer to get two flowers? Despite feeding and watering and sunshine and organic pest control. I have especially been disappointed with some the new varieties that are so vaunted on their site. They just died or had very little output. I also received the wrong rose from DA (Europe), a red, red rose instead of BB. don't know what that's about, but reading the comments, it seems to be an issue world-wide.

my Ronald Dahl direct from David Austin appears to have RMV :(

That's virus alright. (Roald Dahl) DA in the US has been sending out RMV infected plants all along.

Whats the general consensus with what to do? do yall leave it or remove it? This is my first time with RMV

Echo, the first thing I would do is find out if DA will replace it. They DO have a policy about replacing diseased plants.

I have a healthy Roald Dahl rose received ”own-root,” last spring 2023. It did well last summer. You can buy Roald Dahl own-toot from DA now. I live RD-great orolific bloomer, vigorous cane growth, healthy!

Also, “Munstead Wood” is available in US NOW for ”from May delivery 2024 season,” in Iwb-root.” I ordered today to replace a MW grafted that never did really well-it was ok. Always have loved the blooms anyway even though it easnt that vigorous. The own-roots do so much better in my NY garden.

AND i don’t see Munstead W. discontinued from sale as The Guardian article 2022 , above post…..said.” Maybe just discontinued in England?

Attached photo, excerpt from The Guardian Article, in England.

I bought 11 DA bare roots this year and checked all the others and they are all fine except RD.

so far the response from DA is maybe it was me who sprayed something. i havent put a single product on it

I had a Desdamona that was infected but didnt stop growth or blooms.

Request a refund or replacement of own-root Roald Dahl rose. The owm-root DAs tend to be healthy, in my experience. i received several own-root DAs last spring-All healthy-excellent bloomers.

Munstead Wood is not for sale anywhere in the UK. It's still under patent for a few years. It's in great demand here and occasionally it turns up on Ebay for silly money.

I regard this virus as a strictly cosmetic problem, not affecting blooming, growth, or general health of the rose. I like grafted roses and will continue to grow them, even David Austins, plus I grow one Meilland rose with RMV, but I hardly ever see any affected leaves. Neither of my grafted Munsteads show RMV. It's my best Austin as far as I'm concerned. My worst perfoming Austin is an own root Abraham Darby. Never again with the OR. Diane

I would ask for a replacement. Rmv will not effect the plant for a few years but eventually it will lose its vigor and blooming power. I do not know if it dies, but there is a definite downturn in performance. I love my grafted roses, and love Dr Huey as a rootstock, it is such a shame so many are infected. But now when I get one (super rare) that shows the mosaic virus I just bin it

The Evelyn rose below has occasional RMV leaves. She's 15 years old and shows no decline. Same with my 10 year old Rouge Royale. Diane

Evelyn

Rouge Royale

I have read RMV may not effect their growth for a few years. It only apoears in spring &/or fall.

Diane, Your summers in Boise, Idaho so warm brings on amazing vigorous growth in roses. They develop tall thick canes! Very healthy! As a result they may ward off diseases better. In cooler clinatescsuch as mine, not all roses have good health or grow as vogorously as yours. My roses do get large with all my pampering soil amendments and irgaic fertilizers s, but may not ward off RMV as well as yours do.

Healthy roses ward off diseases better.

Diane, Gorgeous Rougie & Evelyn!

It apoears only the UK doesn’t sell Munstead! The US still sells Munstead W! Yay!

Looking at the recent comments it seems folks in zone 8 and above like myself dont really notice any issues but those in the colder zones do. Perhaps the biggest impact of the virus is resiliancy against cold and other stressors?

I’m in Seattle and my last garden came with a heavily virused Queen Elizabeth that was at least 20 years old if not more and continued to bloom and thrive year after year despite having to stretch through a huge Camilia tree to get any light. My Evelyn in my last garden was also virused and after a rough start due to my lack of knowledge quickly took off once I figured out what I was doing and was 10 years old and very healthy apart from a few discolored leaves last time I saw her.

I'm in zone 7. And here in Idaho, we occasionally have zone 5 winters. Diane

Maybe it may have to do with variety? I'm not sure. My oldest house had some roses with RMV - a pair of knock out bushes and a cherry parfait rose - they were great the first few years I was there but then mysteriously declined in spite of all my efforts including even moving them. When I asked around different rose communities for help it was explained to me and widely agreed that the decline I was seeing was normal for a rose that had RMV for several years.

Either way though, I probably would ask for a replacement

Diane, that’s true but you also seem to have stellar conditions otherwise if I recall correctly (please correct me if im wrong) and perhaps that balances it out?

Another consideration might be the exact nature of the infection. RMV can have a few different causes singly or in combination and perhaps that also has an impact on the end result. From the published papers I could find it is quite common to have few or no symptoms in some cases while in othet cases the roses weaken and die over time. However, I’ve not seen any study that tries to identify the reason for the difference.

Elestrial, I agree - I would ask for a replacement too now that I know about RMV. Even though I’ve not had issues so far with RMV making my roses unhealthy I’d rather have a backup. At best one winds up with two healthy plants. At worst the replacement is also virused 🤷‍♀️

The roses that had it in my garden had a majority of the foliage affected, I didn't know you could have an infected rose with little to no symptoms. Now it makes more sense why they keep using infected Dr Huey rootstock, might not realize it is

Found this post in another thread, maybe the strain I dealt with was different from Diane's:

henry_kuska

6 years ago

There is no such thing as a virus named RMV. RMV is the group name for a number of viruses that infect roses. Even for a single virus in that group there are different strains that have different virilities. Also, the rose imune system has been shown to be more efective at fighting PNRSV (usually considered the most common rose virus in the U.S.) at higher temperatures than at lower temperatures. Thus, someone in a warmer climate may feel that a certain virus infection is not a big deal, but that experience probably will not apply to the same variety of rose with the same virus (and same strain) infection grown in a cooler climate. Also, since we are normally dealing with hybrids, the immune system can vary from rose variety to rose variety. When you add that it may be a different virus, a simultaneous infection with two or more types of virus, and/or an infection with a different strain of an individual virus; you see that it is risky to make general statements about what an untested rose virus infection will mean to someone else.

DA replied today to my photos and second email with a refund of the purchase price of the rose since Ronald Dahl is out of stock. i live in a hot and dry climate and the new growth does not appear to be affected. Not sure my ultimate plan. i could preorder a potted RD.

I saw this from the UC Davis heat treatment site : Heat TherapyIn hot conditions, many plant viruses fall apart, lose the ability to infect cells and cannot replicate themselves. In the heat therapy process, potted rose cultivars infected with virus are subjected to constant 100°F temperatures in a heat chamber for a minimum of 4 weeks.

May explain why we and the AZ growers here don't see it as much??? It's over 100 for much of my summer in Mesa AZ.

Is a big company like DA able to begin a shoot-tip culture program? At least they could get a rootstock to bud their newest roses too. Or is cost prohibitive? This is also from UC Davis material:

researchers are now working on optimizing rose shoot-tip culture and are starting to treat modern, heirloom and species roses.