" I mean...they can add up quickly. "

Not nearly as fast as rape and incest. And now that forced gestation is a thing for many pregnant women in the US, that will mean more incestuous babies born.

In order for that to be in----, it would mean the doctor's children got together which would lead to more brother/sister interactions, but that would still not amount to 1 in 7,000. Only 2% of babies are conceived with IVF and of those, many are the mother's husband, not donor sperm. Another stat suggests that 30k to 60k babies are born each year with donor sperm out of 3.5 million births in one year. So still exceedingly small.

A comment about the linked information, not about the person sharing the link-

It's curious that that particular piece discussing possible insights about incest, has itself no links to the sources it cites. Other pieces on that page do.

“the HUGE uptick in the numbers of in-cest cases?!”

Rob, I don’t think anyone said uptick, they’re just saying past estimates may be low.

As I’m thinking about this, I’m realizing this may not be limited directly to the donor process. How about the offspring getting together? If two of Nick Cannon’s kids hook up, hopefully they’ll figure out they have the same daddy. But what about children of someone whose sperm donations made the rounds?

I let my subscription lapse, so I checked out the magazine from the library for the date on the article, but it’s not in that month’s issue. You can try a free month and access the article, which I intend to do.

The lack of awareness about incest some are writing here is appalling., but not surprising..

Without more information about the experts, the who/what/why/how/when of the analyses to better understand, I question the 1 in 7000 statistic.

Maybe the Atlantic article goes into more detail.

We don’t know that there was a huge uptick in cases, just that the frequency is now available through DNA testing.

Hopefully, many of these children will have been borne by a sibling (done commonly in the past to hide a pregnancy outside of marriage).

I knew a co-worker whose much older sister was later revealed to be to be his mother.

Otherwise, that stat is just heartbreaking.

I may be especially dense today, but here's another comment I don't understand: "Hopefully, many of these children will have been sired by a sibling (done commonly in the past to hide a pregnancy outside of marriage)."

Huh???

Better I should be abused by my brother than my father?!?!?!

I agree Elmer, I went looking for a link to the original research and can't find it which is unusual unless it's restricted or behind a paywall in some way....looks like it's based on UK data, so maybe their pubs operate differently?

Annie,

Please read my comment again.

I was referring to people whose 'mother' turns out to be their sibling instead due to dna testing.

The more I think about it, the testing itself would eliminate the assumed mother as a parent, so this DNA result would not be part of this study.

better stated? So not an uptick in occurrence, just an uptick in reporting.

Here's a link to the article, which was published last year: https://archive.ph/Llymn

Thanks, bookwoman!

Yes, thanks bookwoman.

And now I see what you were saying honibaker...thanks for the explanation. I didn't get the impression that it was so much your sister is really your mother as much as your father is really your grandfather stuff.

How thin is our veneer of 'civilized' behavior.

That article was interesting but I don't think it can be accused of being comprehensive. The author, a journalist and not an expert in the field, found a few people (with horrific and terrible backgrounds) to speak to for an insight of what life is like for innocent victims of tragic events that should never happen. To interpolate more broadly from what is written is unfounded. It's nothing short of revolting to think about the things some people do flippantly and how lives are ruined as a result.

Bookwoman, I never knew of Archives Today. That's a goldmine! Thank you so much for opening my eyes to it.

" I was referring to people whose 'mother' turns out to be their sibling instead due to dna testing. "

For a lighter sidebar, something it can be a bit different.

I read Eric Clapton's autobiography (which I recommend for Clapton, guitar, or British Invasion fans, it's entitled unimaginatively Clapton: The Autobiography) where he begins by describing his early years following the end of WW2. In the household were his parents and his much older sister, who was still a teen during his toddler years.

It turned out that who he thought was his sister, was actually his mother, and his "parents" were his grandparents. His father was a Canadian soldier who'd met his mother while passing through town.

The Atlantic is also readable with payeall blockers. Not all publications are, but they are.

food, another bonus for the day. Very useful for a paper I cancelled my subscription to when the monthly charge got excessive. And I'm sure for other things too. Thanks!

(I'm not an Atlantic reader)

A first degree relative is a parent, sibling, or child of a person.

15% of women claimed having a sexual experience with a brother and 10% of men claim the same with a sister. Few will ever fess up to the act so it may be much higher and I'm surprised it's only 1:7000. Don't forget the Dr. Phil, Jerry Springer and Phil Donahue shows peppered with all types of incestuous relationships.

I had no sisters or daughters so I'm part of a minority who can honestly claim "not in my family". I wouldn't believe anyone who said no anyway unless they were raised by nuns in a segregated orphanage so don't bother claiming immunity. There are about 80 countries where incest is legal and many you would be surprised it's allowed. In 5 counties it's legal between the same sex but illegal between opposite sex relationships but the biggest shocker was in Rhode Island and New Jersey where incest is legal per Wikipedia if both are 18 or older..

Maybe some of the 1:7000 came from these states or the other countries, ever think of that? But don't let a statistic go to waste if you can bash men using it.

Elmer, it's part of the Internet Archive, an amazing resource all around: https://archive.org/

Now that is cool! I love old radio shows and saw so much content to last a life time. Thanks Bookwoman, probably the best thing to come out of this forum for me.

Have any of you ever watched Henry Louis Gates‘ program on NPR where he researches the family heritage of some famous people? There are some ’interesting’ discoveries, and I imagine some are not made public on the show.

One about a year or so ago was made fairly public when Julia Roberts discovered she wasn’t a Roberts as far as her DNA showed. Apprently one of her GGG grandmothers on the Roberts side became very friendly with a neighbor who was quite the ’man about town’ when it came to fathering children. She was quite shocked but said she still considered herself a Roberts.

I watch it from time to time. I have tremendous respect for Dr Gates and I understand that the show is an outgrowth of his favorite hobby, one that's mostly unrelated to his professional life.

I think over the years the "shocking finds" have unfortunately become a bit trite and predictable. For African Americans, you had one free ancestor in pre-Civil War years. Or, here is the slave owner you're related to. Or, you really had no enslaved ancestors at all.

I remember Angela Davis's denial and horrified reaction upon learning that one of her ancestors was a European who had come over on the Mayflower. That was a funny truth for a lifelong political radical and Black Rights advocate to learn. Her reaction was as would be expected.

For Caucasians, the predictable shocks are your grandfather wasn't your grandfather, your grandmother disguised her background because she didn't want anyone to know she was (black, an orphan, abandoned, fathered by a relative, pick one), your ancestors were from Moldova, not Spain as they told everyone, your ancestors owned slaves, etc. And predictable non-shocking ones that recur like Your're related to Charlemagne, as are many, many millions of folks.

Maybe the funniest incident for me was one time on the segment at the end, where guest DNA is compared to a database of other guests and distant cousin relatives turn up. Larry David was the guest, and it was revealed that he was a distant cousin of Bernie Sanders. Laughter erupted because David had previously impersonated Sanders on TV many times. They do look remarkably alike but it was a funny coincidence.

I recently subscribed to The Atlantic, maybe this gift link will work :

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2024/03/dna-tests-incest/677791/?gift=3aRaGhcZGPH1Sg0XgkdatCSkBKV9mg3SPnfEOzuM0eo&utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Chinatown, where Faye Dunaway's character keeps repeating "she's my sister" "she's my daughter" "she's my sister" "she's my daughter" to Jack Nicholson's demands to know who that woman was....until she cries "she's my sister AND my daughter".

But finding out that your mother is the person you thought was your sister all along does not mean that you are necessarily the product of incest.

Of course. As with the Clapton example I explained, his mother was a young teenager who became pregnant following a sexual relationship with a much older man in uniform. These two were unrelated and Clapton's mother was never his sister. She was an unwed mother who continued to live with her parents after he was born and for him (though the neighbors I think knew otherwise), his grandparents and his mother put on the charade of a rather different set of relationships.

One is always related to ones' biological parents.

In that situation, Clapton’s grandparents could have chosen to throw her out. Heartless, but probably the decision many made. I would imagine it would have been unthinkable to allow her to stay without the cover story.

What would have become of him I wonder.

I can imagine that there are many people hit with bombshells after having their DNA tests done and maybe finding out that the person they thought was their father, was not!

Newer studies have shown that trauma leads to actual changes in one's DNA which can be passed down. So the tragedy is not only that all of these girls/women (mostly) suffering this abuse not only have significant emotional issues, but that they are passed down through generations physically and psychically, in some cases leading victims to become abusers and so it continues. Absolutely heartbreaking.

"in some cases leading victims to become abusers and so it continues." That is very true, especially among men. Women do sometimes become abusers, less frequently sexual abusers, but much more frequently they become victims of further abuse by their adult partners. And/or become victims of the sex/pornography trade.

Chisue, I've swapped out my MAGA avatar just to spare you and the others here from anguish—for now. My kindness knows no bounds. Hope you’ll sleep better tonight. Meanwhile, the few on this forum who are like-minded with me will continue to enjoy 'all the winning.'

Actually, I do appreciate you asking me nicely. Btw, are you going to ask others on this forum to remove their bias political avatars? I'll wait...

(OJ -- Thank you. Yours was one of the few avatars clear enough to easily make out, and I had not noticed it before. I haven't seen other political avatars here -- and I was surprised -- 'politics' being a no-no for Houzz. I asked you rather than play Internet Police.)

Meanwhile, the few on this forum who are like-minded with me will continue to enjoy 'all the winning.'

If by winning you mean a life of meaningful interaction, thoughtful dialogues, kindness to those in need, and a love for humanity in all of its diversity, you and I are like minded.

Re: Avatars

Disclaimer*** I am Canadian🇨🇦 My donkey avatar is simply in memory of my dear little mini donkey Chalupa. She had no polytickle affiliations that I knew of.

roxol, never noticed but your donkey is very cute!

I read somewhere that brothers and sisters emit odors that are repulsive to each other, which is a biological evolutionary effect that is supposed to help prevent incest - at least with brother and sister. It might not be strong enough for everyone, however, as some people have more sensitive olfactory nerves than others.

"In your face" displays are never in good taste.

My little avatar was chosen because it accurately captures my compelling political views as well as the degree of my faith in my fellow man(woman).

A-hem! Returning to the topic at hand... And a diversion...

During the dozen years I assisted adult adoptees and birthparents seeking one another, fear of finding incest was a common adoptee fear. (Just one of the unfair torments inflicted by sealed adoption records -- and sometimes by insecure adoptive parents.)

We rarely saw that result of of search. Even when it was the truth, I'm not aware of any searcher who was not relieved to put an end to the 'maybe this/maybe that' and to have access to the same family history that non-adopted people take for granted.

I'm pleased to read in the Atlantic article that there is a support group for people discovering incest. Support is now missing for people in the adoption triangle who don't join groups...because they no longer need help finding records and locating people. They find people -- but have had no preparation about how to handle emotions or to integrate relationships.

Something I feel deserves research is the intensity of connection we often saw in family members reunited as adults. I thought that it evidenced the way individuals are normally absorbed into families by what we shrug off as 'resemblances', but may be more primal. We often saw a 'claiming' of the adult adoptee by not only the birthmother/father, but sibs, and even grandparents. This is normal with a new baby: Grandpa's nose; Mother's eyes. LOVE if you will.

In group, we learned to prepare reuniting people to recognize this for the delayed bonding it is. Otherwise. in some instances, opposite genders (sisters/brothers, mothers/sons) experienced the love as sexual. It almost never actually was that, but to be swept away by this strong emotion was to ruin the true familial bonding. Forewarning was key. Nobody ever believed it ahead of reunion, but more than a few told us they were grateful for the warnig. I knew only two instances where people left their spouses to live with a reunited relative; IDK how long this attachment lasted.

My interest is in the unknown power of this familial connection for every individual, not just those separated by adoption. What drives it? And, what is the emotional damage where it doesn't take place, or is prevented (as in infant adoption)?

Interesting chisue.

My reaction to your question is that perhaps for these people, finding a close relative and finally getting answers to long held uncertainties and questions has to produce a tidal wave flow of emotions. A big hole and emptyness get filled.

I think what I'm saying is, I wonder if the overwhelming feelings of the event and the momentum that produces could be responsible for the "connection", rather than any animal instinct.

We subscribe to The Atlantic (for years) and have given gift subscriptions to friends.

Many thoughtful and well-written articles.

My avatar is my deceased cat Henry because I forget how to change it. As a child, I wished my maternal aunt and uncle were my biological parents. They had no children , and I was sure I was theirs because I liked them better than my parents. But genetics are too strong because I have deniable characteristics from both parents.

The SIL of my daughter had an interesting result of her DNA test. I am on 23 and Me and nothing but second/ third cousins but this woman found her physician father had a slew of other kids, and she has reconnected with some. That would be traumatic but I as an only child might like to find I had a sibling, but not a slew. Some of this woman's found sibs look like her.

John Lennon was another well known person who found out as an adult that the woman he had always believed was his older sister was , in fact, his mother.

As an infant adoptee who has known as long as I can remember that I was an adoptee, I’ve never felt a void from not knowing my birth parents. I’ve never made any real effort to find them, though if any relatives turned up on my doorstep I wouldn ’t turn them away. I’m just not sure I’d feel any connection, as to me they are complete strangers.

My DD gave me one of those Ancestry .com kits for Christmas a few years ago, and I did it more to please her than from a burning desire to possibly connect with potential family members. Every so often I get an email saying ”You have a potential relative”, but I’ve never bothered to pursue them.

Not long before she die, my mother said that she had been told that I havebeen a half brother some six years older than I am, so presumably I have some unknown neices and nephews out there somewhere.

The only thing that really bothered me when I was a kid in school, was when other kids would say, ”I’m half German and a quarter English and a quarter Irish” or similar and I didn’t know.

Thanks for what you wrote, Chisue. Having been immersed in adoption reunion culture and groups for many years, precipitated by my own reunion, I know that genetic sexual attraction is real. We counseled people heading into reunion to be aware of the intense feelings they would encounter, especially .when meeting their mothers. For Adoptees who were denied bonding with their first mothers and mothers who were never allowed to bond with their infants, the actually process of bonding is stymied but it doesn't disappear. The moment they meet, there is a regression of the mother to the age of relinquishment and the child to the preverbal age they lost their mother. There is no way to prepare either for the intensity of the emotions, plus you have a woman regressed to a 15 year old for example and an adult child regressed to a newborn. That 15 year old has no access to whatever maturity the adult mother may have at the time of reunion and the child is awash in emotions present at birth that were intended to cause bonding with the mother. Not nearly as intense and for different reasons, father/daughter reunions can be problematic. Sometimes caused by the resemblance of the female child to the first mother in her youth. And again, familiarity that gets mistaken for sexual attraction. Extra caution has to be taken between newly reunited siblings, because of genetic sexual attraction. Siblings raised together are more affected by social taboos and familiarity of being raised together.

While this all doesn't exactly relate to the high numbers of incest victims, I think it speaks to the complicated relationships between blood relatives. It in no way excuses fathers and brothers sexually abusing girls in their families. Or either parent abusing sons.

John Lennon was another well known person who found out as an adult that the woman he had always believed was his older sister was , in fact, his mother.

Not quite: after the age of 5 he was raised by his Aunt Mimi, his mother's sister, because Mimi thought John's home environment wasn't good for him (it's more complicated than that, but that's the gist.) He always knew who his mother Julia was, and had a relationship with her throughout her life; she bought him his first guitar. She was run over by a car and killed when John was 18.

Anybody else experiencing the duplicate postings making this topic twice as long as it should be?

And I saw that news awhile back - not too surprising really, when you think about how many people in the past hooked up with cousins, and the amount of unreported abuse that happens as well. There's all kinds of twisted stuff that happens in families, isn't there?

I had a coworker around my age who was raised by her grandparents alongside her teen mom. When her mom became ill and passed away, she expressed some regret that her relationship with her mother was more like that of siblings than parent/child, that she never really related to her mom as a parent.

Since we've gone down the adoption rabbit hole... my very dear friend just found out she has a half sister. When she contacted her, the sister brushed it aside as a sister, saying they were more likely cousins. Apparently, she was still checking in on friend. When the friend posted a picture, the sister decided to dig around her family's records. Sure enough, her father had visited our fair city nine months before friend was born. The picture? Friend and half sister's daughter look identical. She's conceded that they share the same father.

" He always knew who his mother Julia was "

I agree. He also wrote a song inspired by her, the title was her name.

I haven't read any bios of Lennon but the Wiki piece suggests that his mother was a somewhat irresponsible free spirit, whose tragic demise in her 40s apparently added to his grief of separation from her.