Interesting question. I just looked up the CC nearest me, in a fairly affluent suburban area, and their website says that 75% of their graduates "transfer out", although it doesn't specify into what kind of programs.

I can’t answer that last question and only have my own experiences and opinions .

My experience, both first and second hand : For the motivated, financially pressed, or merely money-wise student, the CCs are a gift. Guidence is available to assure that the right path and classes are taken for admission into our state colleges and universities. It’s pretty cut and dried. More personal research may be required for the private colleges.

OTOH, the cc’s demands for entrance, and the cost both are minimal . This attracts those who want to prolong childhood, remain at home not working, while appeasing

the parents. I do not know which type is greater . There are exceptions, of course.

As for attracting students, that‘s a job for the high schools. A big effort is needed to make the many non- degree occupations look desirable. My knowledge on this is zero. I only imagine more could be done.

" their website says that 75% of their graduates "transfer out", although it doesn't specify into what kind of programs. "

Could that be intentionally misleading language? Or, I'm looking for something that isn't there?

The "less than 20%" figure I mentioned, closer to 15% in some years, is a number derived from taking the number of students transferring to 4 year colleges, divided by that year's student population. An example, a college with 15,000 students in a particular year may have only 1500 who transfer. 10%

If only 7000 of the 15000 ever "graduate" (complete the program they're in, the word you mentioned), then a calculation of 1500/7000 would be misleading.

For your figure to be comparable to mine, it would suggest that all students at your local school "graduate". Is that likely?

So I did a little more digging, and it looks like they have a 55% graduation rate. I'll let you do the rest of the math. :-)

I agree with you completely, martinca.

What concerns me is how much money is wasted because having no entry requirements and often minimal costs allows some youngsters to hide from adult life for a few years. And how the wasted resources compromise what can be provided to serious students who would make better use of expanded opportunities.

A similar story but with different numbers is to be found with the California State University system. The lower second and unequal rung of California's higher education system, below the University of California.

A quick search discloses that the 4 year graduation rate for first time students in the CSU system is 36%. Before you think about whether there was a pandemic induced dip, in fact, this is the highest rate ever. The 6 year graduation rate is 62%. The two year graduation rate for community college transfer students is 45%. I suspect these numbers are skewed upward by better performance among the Cal Poly campuses that tend to have more capable students.

The CSU system has a very high acceptance rate for applicants and their performance suggests to me that some significant percentages of students are not serious about completing their studies timely and moving on with their lives. Should standards be raised for the good of all?

If a child of mine had at any time displayed a lack of serious progress that these numbers suggest for the student bodies at large year after year, I'd have intervened without delay. As a population, shouldn't we do the same?

" So I did a little more digging, and it looks like they have a 55% graduation rate. I'll let you do the rest of the math. :-) "

That's what I suspected. That is high though compared to what happens here state-wide. It's probably consistent here with what you described, as between systems in more affluent areas and those in poorer ones.

If a student graduates with a two year degree then applies those credits towards a four year program, I'm guessing they'd be graduates not transfers?

Adults who take courses of interest, not aspiring to a degree, how are they counted? Is their education a waste?

I took a course at one over over a break. How was I counted?

I'm just looking at stats for my county and the disparity by source makes it difficult to read. 100% employment rate caught my eye!

One of our sons took summer courses and even an online class during the school year, while he was in university. An excellent opportunity to save money, and to take courses where his grade might not be so good. The other got his AS, then enrolled with a great scholarship to get his BS at a four-year liberal arts. Worked out great for everyone. And we are not in the ”lower socio-economic circumstances”, just appreciate a great value.

" If a student graduates with a two year degree then applies those credits towards a four year program, I'm guessing they'd be graduates not transfers? "

As I understand it, they're graduates of the community college and then transfer students in the eyes of both the community college and the four year institution. In my state, students who have completed their two years of a prescribed course of study with acceptable grades (I think only a C average is required) are guaranteed transfer to one of the state institutions. Though not necessarily their first choice. Most go into the CSU system.

The number I cited above is that of community college transfer students to the CSU system (needing only two more years there to get a BA or BS), only 45% do so in 2 years. This is an added issue, not what I had in mind in starting the thread.

My question was about community colleges. How many of the individuals who begin a course of study intended to cover the first two years of a four year degree, wind up actually completing those first two years at the community college (no matter how long it takes them to do so)? The stats here say it's embarrassingly low. There's got to be more to know about what's going on.

My point waa the transfer rate may be higher than it looks, if graduates are not counted in this category.

Here’s what Suffolk Community College itself states:

Graduation Rate: 90%
Pass Rate:

• First Time Licensure Exam: 75%
• Ultimate Licensure Exam: 83%

Employment: 100%

Here’s whar collegefactual.com says:

24% 4 year grad rate

28% 6-year

60% retention

US News:

Full tjmr retention 60%

Part tjme retention 41%

Graduation rate 26%

Transfer rare 14%

I don’t know what to do with those numbers.

Yeah, good question.

I did a search with Suffolk and "First time licensure exam" and it took me to a page talking about a physical therapist assistant program. It's a vocational program.

I think the US News numbers you found should be reliable. So if 26% "graduate", and 14% transfer out (which is probably a subset of the first) what happens to the others?

It's maybe the same issue as here.

Student Outcomes Physical Therapy Assistants

I don't see any cause for alarm because the transfer rate to universities is low.......To me, that just means that people went to Community Colleges for what they offer, which is a good thing. That transfer rate is very different than their graduation rate - I would hope their graduation rate is much higher than their transfer rate. Everyone I know who's gone to a Community College has done so for the programs offered, not as a way to start small before tackling University.

Colleges here have graduation rates of 60%-70%, with high employment rates (90+) after graduation. University undergrad 4-year graduation rates are a little higher, at 75-80%.

Address yourself to food's stats

If 26% of students "graduate" (which to me means they completed the course of study they were pursuing), what happens to the rest?

Something I didn't mention before - about a year ago, I ran into one of the many deans of one of the local community colleges at a dinner party of what turned out to be a mutual friend. I asked her about student outcome stats and what seemed to an outsider to suggest that many young students start and then don't complete their programs. Her response was short, something to the effect of "Yes, that's a big problem we're trying to figure out. We don't know what we can do about it because we can't control admissions".

It's ancient history now, but like bpath's son, I took several elective evening classes at a local community near home college during summer breaks. With pre-approval, the university I attended accepted the credits towards my degree. It was a much more diverse student base in terms of age and experience which was interesting.

Re: Cal State programs, is there a differentiation in the statistics for full-time vs. part-time students? Some people do work full time in addition to their studies, so I can see why it may take longer. Also, there is a question of how frequently courses required for graduation from a specific program are offered, and how difficult it is to get them.

Good point. Perhaps the part time students skew the stats somewhat?

I still think there's a high dropout/did not finish rate among the community colleges. The person I spoke to thought so too.

Another data point, something I may have mentioned here before. We have a close friend who recently retired as a prof at one of the CSU locations. She rose to being department head in her humanities field for a dozen years before retiring. She's said that the general "quality and ability" of students she found in her classes declined steadily in the years of her career.

Another person I may have mentioned before, an acquaintance who recently retired as a professor in a STEM field. When I heard the comment from the humanities prof, I asked him next time I saw him about the capability of students these days compared to years past. He responded immediately "much better than ever". I asked what accounted for that and he said that at least among the graduate students he worked with, they were all foreign born. And undergrads, disproportionately foreign born. He had no other explanation to offer.

But I think that’s the nature of what’s being offered. Education for pretty much anyone who wants it at relatively low cost. Any other college has the luxury of choosing how many to admit, who to admit, manipulate the acceptance rates by rejecting both over and underqualified candidates. And their success rates reflect this. Tighten up admissions and it defeats the purpose of CC.

Similarly, K-12 could be a better education, if they could weed out half the student body.

My county's Community College is run by one of New Jersey's state colleges. It started out as a regular 2 year community college in 1966 but in 2015 it became part of Rowan University. Since then it has expanded academic programs and now has transfer agreements with other colleges and universities both in-state and out of state. They offer a few 3 + 1 programs in various studies along with the traditional 2 year degree or certificate programs.

A close friend of ours was in charge of the Pre-Admission Program, an out-reach program geared to high school graduates who weren't academically ready for community college. The school offered basic classes to help prepare them for admission.

Elmer, perhaps you can explain something for me. I watch too much Judge Judy. One thing that seems to be a part of CA is they pay students to go to college. There are numerous cases where she asks how they make a living and they respond, "I'm a student." But she says that doesn't pay anything. And they reply that they use their student money to pay rent, buy a car, etc. Is that part of a student loan system? Seems to me if so, it's overly generous or extremely loose in terms of policing how those funds are being used. In so many instances, it certainly doesn't seem to be for tuition and books, but living expenses?

Room and board alone at my son’s school is about $17K; that’d put college out of reach for many even if tuition were free.

We have several regional community colleges in our state. I always thought of most of them as stepping stones for many kids to a 4-year college, and many kids still do that, for both financial and personal reasons. My youngest brother did because he didn’t feel ’ready’ to enter a large university back in the early 70’s although he did after a year and was successful.

The CC in our region has been here many years and has thrived and adapted to many local growth and job needs. I didn’t reserarch their stats, but did take a screen shot of the various AAS (associate/2-year degree programs) and certificates that can be obtained there. I imagine many community colleges are similar, and respond to our regional needs for jobs at all pay, training, and knowledge levels, many which do not require a 4-year degree.

I personally am very happy these CCs are available to serve the population that needs them. We need them too.

Elmer, I think there may be a fairly high dropout rate for almost any post-secondary schools. Many just are not prepared, cannot focus on studying, time management, or what it takes to independently navigate school. Maybe many think of CC’s as an easy route and it isn’t the cake walk they expect.

Similarly, K-12 could be a better education, if they could weed out half the student body.

foas, this is what bugs me about public school ratings. The winners are nearly all selective enrollment schools, or schools where the community sort of self-selects. I would love to see rankings of general enrollment community schools. As to the general enrollment public schools where the community sort of self-selects, that has as much to do with the families as it does with the faculty and administration. The families tend to have educated parents, with, if not an ideal home life, at least stability and food and shelter security. It makes a difference.

I believe one factor that is being overlooked is the assumption that the student body of the community colleges is overwhelmingly young students fresh out of high school. I am not sure that is very accurate and my own CC experience tells me it is not. IME, a significant population of the student body is made up of adults or "mature" students. They are not necessarily looking for a degree but often only the variety of very directed or specialized courses offered by the CC's which will enhance their knowledge base or work qualifications. These are often rather technical, hands-on classes not necessarily found elsewhere and frequently qualify under the ongoing continuing education mandate many employers and professional certifications advocate/require.

This factor alone could account for the confusing "graduation" or transfer statistics.

btw, to reinforce my experience in this area, I was for a number of years on the advisory board of a local CC and even taught a few classes there. Young, fresh out of high school students were in a distinct minority.

Annie, your question about student loan income hasn’t been replied to yet so I’m jumping in to comment. My relevant experience is a few years of working within the Federal Family Education Loan program (FFEL). These guaranteed student loans were needs based & disbursed periodically through the academic year based on continued enrollment. The funds were meant to help pay for living expenses which included both school fees & personal living costs. None of these loans covered 100% of either kind of costs. The loans required repayment when the student either graduated or dropped out of school. These were not private loans but federally guaranteed loans. Several large student loan companies exist to service those loans for federal gov’t. One is Sallie Mae. The FFEL program ceased in 2010 but the loans made are still out there & in either repayment, collection or deferment status.

I have taken a few CC courses in a couple of states with no intention of using those courses for a degree or transfering elsewhere. It seemed to be a normal thing to be doing. I took some basic bookkeeping and payroll and most of the students were women looking to pad out their office skills for better pay. The propagation class I took was 100% older people. Some were vets blowing some of their education money and others just fooling around which was a good thing as the course was more or less a joke. Here it seemed expensive for what you got so maybe that is why some of these students bail. It is cheaper than our local University.

" One thing that seems to be a part of CA is they pay students to go to college. "

Thanks for mentioning this, it led me to something I hadn't heard about.

There are apparently two pilot programs that indeed pay students who carry a minimum part time load and remain in good standing. What I skimmed over briefly suggested It's directed to those who could be described as ex-cons, former foster care kids, or in low income circumstances. Seems to be a form of help to bootstrap those beginning their lives with added obstacles to deal with compared to others.

At this point they're very limited.

California Pays Students to Attend College in New Pilot Program

When I went to college I had scholarships for tuition which was a nominal cost in the dark ages. The big expense not considered back in the day was living expenses. Any part of that like housing or food, books or other personal expenses cost more than tuition. I could not use my scholarships for that and had no support from my parents. I had to take out a loan. For students from families who dont or cant support them in college it would be a necessity to get money for living expenses.

patriciae

I looked at stats for two local community colleges in my economically diverse area but one with many people of above average wealth too. I didn't pick and choose, below I present what I was able to find. These colleges used to include more useful stats on their websites but as the information is (in my opinion) pretty dismal, they don't so much any more

At one, in a very nice neighborhood (West Valley College in Saratoga)

8000 gross enrolled, 6422 full time equivalent students

Median age - 20 years

Transfer out - 642

Total degrees or program completions awarded (included Associate degrees for those transferring out - about 2000.

San Jose City College - in a lower socio-economic area but still with some affluent areas nearby

Student population - 8400

Transfer out rate - 8%

Graduation rate - 25%

What in the heck are the enrollees whose ultimate outcomes don't increment these stats doing with themselves and in their lives?

Data like this, pretty consistent from college to college in my area, and info I've heard from those with inside experience, leads me to think that our system is broken. I think too many young people find their way to community colleges as a way to postpone transition to the responsible adult stage of life. Perhaps a lack of more robust vocational training is partly to blame? Lax or absent parental guidance? I don't know.

Many, who do wind up transferring to 4 year schools of less renown, like the CSU system, populate classes as unmotivated students of limited ability as our close friend reported at the end of her full career.