Very good post, and it's interesting to hear what people have to say. What Suzy says is worth the most serious consideration. I'm confused on the subject. First, I've been gardening for over twenty years, and am on my third serious garden (there have been some minor ones in between), which I've been working on for about a decade now. Currently I have about 350 varieties of roses and about 500-600 plants, not to mention hundreds of other shrubs, subshrubs, perennials, and so on. The garden is currently about two acres in size and will increase a bit more before we stop expanding. All this is to explain my situation. My garden is many things to me. It's a plant collection, with emphasis on old and older roses; I'm particularly fond of the once-flowering old roses which are so little grown in Italy, and of the Teas, also little cultivated. It's my aesthetic experiment, my lifetime work of art, my form of creative expression, and I can't put into words how important this is to me. My garden is also a long term experiment in low-impact gardening. I want to see what happens if I grow roses and other plants with just water the first year, mulch, pruning, weeding, cutting the grass, and not much else. The results have been encouraging enough that I keep on going with the same basic practices. In terms of consumption, my conscience is in pretty good shape. The land the garden takes up was grassland, some of it very weedy and poor, marginal areas given over to weeds, and one part, the shade garden, was a mixture of brushy woods and swamp and the site of our predecessors' burn pile and dump. Our fertilizer is the old hay we use as mulch, a local resource which would otherwise be simply thrown away. The water the garden uses, not a lot, is balanced out by the increased fertility of the soil and greater volume of plant material growing on the land, which also inhibits landslides, which are a very real consideration on our property. I've introduced exotic plant species, but also look for and introduce local native plants to the garden. If I haven't made it clear before, this is anything but prime farmland I'm gardening on, and it would be either grass, brush turning to woodland, or weeds--all three locally abundant--if I weren't gardening there. My husband and I plan on expanding the garden, and we're in a hurry, as he's my chief labor force and is currently in his late seventies, and won't be able to dig planting holes and steer the motor scythe forever. We get poorer every year and I don't see how we'll be able to hire anybody to do the work he does now. Everyone has a limit, or so I suppose, and I suspect that mine is somewhere in the neighborhood of 600-800 varieties of roses. But I don't know whether we'll get there before our resources, of money and manpower, give out. I'm wondering if I can't borrow a horse to be a living lawn mower: I'm told they eat only grass. The money isn't that big a deal. Some people buy clothes or go to the movies or eat out; I buy plants, at moderate expense. I also give and receive a lot of plants, and this cooperative aspect of gardening is one of its aspects that matters to me. But I certainly do wonder at times why I'm dedicating my life to a garden that no one ever sees. This is frustrating, and it also offends, quite deeply, my sense of thrift. I will feel my garden has been a failure if it remains unknown and never touches anyone's life, no matter how beautiful I succeed in making it. It's too much for one person alone to enjoy. I'm familiar with the sensation of greed, and it's an uncomfortable feeling. In spite of the ambitious scale of my garden, my desire to keep working on it doesn't feel like greed to me, not quite, and I certainly have thought about the matter. Could I spend my life more usefully? Quite possibly, as the chief practical result of my decade of labor seems to be that two acres of dirt are more fertile than they were before. I could be earning money, perhaps, staving off starvation and power cutoffs in my old age. That would certainly be useful, to me at any rate. As far as the work I might do is concerned, how many people do truly useful work, work that benefits society? Would I be doing something more globally useful if I had a job in advertising, say, instead of going out right now to shear grass and vetch in my rose beds? So many questions, so few answers. Melissa

ramazz, no it wasn't yours but that one is sure pretty, very unusual. It was a photo by the side of a house with two large patches of PS and some other flower. They weren't exactly like my photo either as to double. Kind of a double decker effect except the top part was the same size as the bottom. That's how I remember it anyway, and often my memory plays tricks on me. If I can find that thread again, I'll link to it, too far back now. token, one person's trash is another's treasure. I know photos can only show us so much, but I find yours rather interesting, not that I'd run right out and grow it. Expecting something different may skew your perception of it, but I'd let it grow another year and see what it is like. I think it's kind of pretty actually, certainly different. Nice assortment of flowers and plants in your photo. But if you have your heart set on a nice cherry brandy, I'd hope to get some seeds from posters who have the prettiest ones or just try something else. But before you shovel prune it, maybe somebody on freecycle would want it or gasp, somebody here might want some seeds from it. Or a plant hybridizer. Look at what you've got, something truly unique even though not to your liking. If it were crossed with other ones, it could lead to some stunning new Rudbeckia. A grower might even be interested in it. I don't know if white has even shown up in Rudbeckias before or not, and the potential for crosses, good bad and ugly are endless.

Hi All - thanks so much for the great discussion and tips. I have been growing a pink currant but don't know the name - it is thriving here in Colorado (I keep getting new plants sprouting everywhere near the original). The birds don't bother the currants at all here. They eat everything else I grow! I wanted to add a black currant and just called Lucile at Whitman and ordered - what a nice lady! She had the Ben Lomand black and the Russe (sp?) which is not listed in her catalog but she is very happy with that variety so I am trying both.

my p.a. freedom canes got 9ft. tall from planting in may to sept. with a ton of flowers and berries. very vigorous! we got 2ft. of heavy wet snow that laid them down 2wks ago. hopefully i can get them to ripen if i put them in high tunnels next year. there is a variety that fedco here in maine carries that is supposed to be hardy to zone3. wish i saw that before i bought the freedoms. if i can get the fruit to ripen in the tunnel i don't mind the extra effort. i have 4 hybrid hazels s i got from arbor day that are a cross of the american and beaked hazels. the nuts are slightly smaller than the ones you buy at the store. i also have wild beaked on the property. the squirrels eat them and so far left my hybrids alone. check out bagersett research out of i think minnesota. they have dozens of commercial hybrids. there are some breeders in the mid west provinces that sell hybrids as well. don't remember the names.