I was a 1-2-3 mom, too.

My mother was never subtle. Without warning, her large wooden spoon would hit its target.

When my son was 2-6 yrs old, my move was to squeeze his wrist tightly. I will never forget when he was 2 or 3, shopping in a crowded store, I did the move because he was acting up, and he cried out, 'Don't hit me Mommy!' very loudly - I was mortified 😣

He was never hit, BTW, other than a token smack on his diaper-padded bottom. His most feared consequence for misbehavior was being made to sit in a chair for time out. He hated that 😄

My 'move' now with kids at playcamp is to catch their eye and give a slight shake of my head - usually, that's all it takes.

As a father and not a mother, I didn't use subtle discipline methods. It was one strike and you're out. They learned that I meant what I said and undesired consequences (never physical) were consistent.

I agree that it doesn't take much; the whiff of disapproval from a parent is powerful. Until they are like 14 and then the gig is up and you are a powerless shell-- you just hope they don't notice.

We had elementary school visitors recently and when they left we both mentioned that our kids never acted like that. It could be that our addled brains no longer remember. I think it was actually that we often had an adult for each child, since we had two live-in-nannies (they split the week). If everyone is getting attention there is usually less reason for them to misbehave. Of course we probably scarred them in some other way(s). You can't win. It seems parents are either criticized for hovering and placating, or criticized for being self-absorbed and demanding.

My favorite way is the opposite of subtle and is only used at home. If they don't want to do something, ignore me, or start to argue I start singing. Usually a really over done operetta, with my own lyrics, does the trick. I just belt it out nice and loud until they do whatever it is. My stress level goes down and they usually get up very quickly.

What was your subtle discipline method?

Ironclad, never wavering expectations.

I had to eject a child from a toy store once and I had a few words with a child in public once.

I used the wide eyed, disbelieving stare that said, "You must be out of your mind," along with shaking my head.

DIL impressed me with her follow-through. When DGD was three, after she ignored one warning about misbehaving in a restaurant, DIL warned no more, but picked the little wriggler up and took her outside -- in winter's cold. They didn't return for some time.

I left a cart full of necessities in the Target when my toddler actd up. Boy, that was hard to do, but I never had to do it again.

Usually an understanding of expectations prevented most disruptions.

I would say kids certainly have changed--because adults have. It's no longer considered proper to embarrass a child, impose your will on a child, anticipate obedience from a child. Between being trauma informed and restorative justice practices kids have learned they are in charge and in the end the boredom of listening to an adult talk at them is the worst it will get. Sadly this is played out in homes and schools and now on the news. Good luck to us all.

Have any of you been keeping up with the vlogger Ruby Franke? She had 2.5M subscribers on YT as a mommy vlogger of her husband and 6 kid family. She billed herself as a parenting coach and made over $1M per year on YT with her channel The Eight Passengers. She is now sitting in jail after her 12yo was able to escape being duct taped and malnurished while locked in the closet. He ran to a neighbor's house and asked for help. @Arcy's comment made me think of her.

Friday, I just read about her (and Jodi, both of them are pure evil) this week. Horrifying story. Those poor kids.

" Between being trauma informed and restorative justice practices kids have learned they are in charge and in the end the boredom of listening to an adult talk at them is the worst it will get. Sadly this is played out in homes and schools and now on the news. Good luck to us all."

You live in a different world than I do. I haven't seen or heard of a behavior pandemic like this, other than to a limited extent in individual cases of abject parenting failures. These aren't all that common, that I've seen.

“You live in a different world than I do.”

I think that every time I read one of her posts about anything.

All of what Arcy commented mimics the parenting techniques of Ruby Franke. She was perfectly fine with embarrassing her kids, imposing her will, and anticipating obedience. We see how that has turned out for her. I cannot imagine parenting in that way. I agree with Elmer and Jilly. I too am living in a different world than anyone with that mindset.

Considering how flawed those parenting techniques are, I fear the result when the children become adults having experienced a childhood filled with abuse.

Are you still teaching @arcy_gw ?

I have to defend Arcy because this just happened last week. DIL has been the Kindergarten teacher for 21 years and also has a Masters in Library Science. One night she told me she had a really stressful week because there is a little girl in her class who screams all the time. No matter how often she reported it to the principal nothing was done. She screamed every day all day about something. DIL is a very gentle soul and I've never heard her raise her voice once.

She told me she finally cracked and went to the office again and started crying begging for real help, and she stood her ground, which I assume she threatened to quit on the spot.

They gave into her demands and I didn't ask her to go into detail. It was a serious ordeal.

The last thing she said to me was, "Kids have changed, I've never seen anything like it before."

It happens but it's something most of us would never know unless we're involved, but it does sound like something's going on. Interesting though, something I need to read about.

Maybe grandma's are part of the problem. When DS and family were living here while house was being built, they were all on the front porch and I was sitting on the sofa inside. DGD was barely 3. She came in the front door with her little pout, and just stood in front of a wall.

I went to her and asked if she was okay, then reached down to pick her up and we cuddled on the sofa. Then mom comes inside and quietly said to me with a grin on her face, "she's supposed to be standing in the corner."

DIL sent me this picture before they moved in with us. Her first trip to the corner. Looks like she got into something she wasn't supposed to. ;)

Just know young kids right now have missed out on some important socialization and learning because of the pandemic.

The last few comments make me so sad. I teach first grade and am now at the end of my career. There was a time when I would have argued that some kids need punitive consequences and shame to socialize them, but no more. Shaming feels natural and easy for many because it's how we were socialized. Doesn't mean it's right or the best way. I've learned to use other respectful strategies and have seen that they work sooooooo much better. If you want to really change a kid for the better, put in the effort. Shame and punishment might make you feel like you've "won" in the moment, but I guarantee you haven't changed that kid for the better.

The stories I see on instagram, etc. of principals rewarding or not dealing with students with issues just show that those administrators have had their old methods taken away, but not replaced with anything better. It makes me so upset. I've been blessed to work in an environment where we all work together to give challenged students the tools they need to succeed. And that doesn't mean a lollipop and a pat on the head for making poor choices. It's hard work, but my heart leaps when I see kids that came in to first grade labelled as "the problem", who are now in middle and senior school and are being identified as leaders and model learners.

Shame and punishment might make you feel like you've "won" in the moment, but I guarantee you haven't changed that kid for the better.

I very much agree. We can and should do better. We should be evolving!

The ruby franke story makes me so sad. Power and punishment are not child-rearing and discipline. How is taking away basic needs like food, water, and a bed beneficial to a child?

Completely agree with daisychain. When I started teaching, my youngest was 8, and as the years went on, I often found myself wishing I had understood children better before I had them. Teaching hundreds of children shows you patterns that are irrefutable. Namely, that positive techniques can work wonders with children. Just as with dog training, "positive" doesn't mean that everything is hunky-dory all the time. But it does mean that you can often ignore the bad and reward the positive. I had a somewhat chaotic, traumatic childhood, and because of that, I was much more respectful of my own children. I didn't shame them, and I wasn't heavyhanded with punishments. They are amazing, young adults. Kindhearted, good world citizens, and completely self-supporting. But I can still see ways I could have been even more compassionate and respectful.

I'm reading The Book You Wish Your Parents Had Read, and the author (a psychoanalyst) lays out the theory that you are more than anything, establishing a lifelong relationship with your child from day one. So if you want to have open communication, for example, you cannot disregard their authentic feelings. That not only makes it difficult for them to access their true feelings later, it also teaches them that you can't handle it. This is an example of where I think I could have done better. When one of my children was distressed, I would of course acknowledge it, but pretty minimally, and try to move them very quickly, through distraction mostly, toward happiness. The thread about welcoming a new baby is interesting in this way, because she specifically talks about well-meaning parents often making the mistake of pressuring the older child to love the baby and be happy about it -without allowing them their genuine feelings.

I can’t remember where I first heard this when my kids were little, but the phrase ”catch them being good” stuck with me. In other words, acknowledge good behavior more than you focus on consequences for ”bad” behavior.

I just remembered another tip I heard and tried to use: when reprimanding a child, use only as many words as their age. I had to remind DH of this because he’s a talker. So, for a four year old, use four words. After that, they stop listening. I had one very stubborn, tricky kid, and this method worked for me. He would try to argue, and I would just repeat the same words, no debating or elaboration, until he gave up.

When your kids are young, it is so hard to know if you’re doing it right. I wasn’t the best parent but I tried, and we never physically harmed our kids or, say, locked them in a closet . They are all happy, polite, respectable, law abiding adults now so I guess I didn’t mess them up too badly!

I love the number of words idea. That sounds very logical to me. I wish someone had told me that before my got so old.

For me, mutual respect has always worked wonders in my relationship with my children discipline wise. Two of my boys were far better behaved, more cooperative at home than they were at school. They could sense the phony constraints and ersatz rewards which felt manipulative to them, I guess.

A lot of people my age and older, well remember that look from mom across the room. My uncle's favorite is when he tells about his mom giving that look from the choir.

What did I do when things might be ugly in public? The opposite of other people, and it got people's attention. When your mother leans over and whispers in your ear and everybody turns around to look at you, you get the picture pretty quickly. There were many times I didn't need to lean over and whisper, times people came up to me and complimented me on how well behaved my child was. I think it probably helped to let them know what was expected ahead of time, and complimenting it on the back end.

Children are not always well behaved, and it doesn't take rewarding them for that to happen. They can even respect you and still slip up. People are like that, children are practicing to become big people. Takes time.

my son's bedroom looked like a guitar/amp superstore. all i had to do was threaten to lock him OUT of his room. 😂

FWIW, there' a really good book called How To Talk So Little Kids Will Listen, and I've picked up some great techniques from it. 1 of the most profound was to avoid judgement when asking kids to pick things up by simply pointing to the thing without saying anything at all. It's worked like a charm for me when it's time for kids to pick up and put things away at the end of a class period. I'll just say their name to get their attention and point to whatever it is.

Another point the book makes that's stuck with me is that yes, it can be exhausting to be constantly working around potentially difficult situations with good humor, but at the end of the day, would you rather that you and the kid be exhausted and happy, or exhausted and angry? Either way, you'll be exhausted, because kids can be exhausting, so you make the choice.

I was very lucky with my kids. I didn't know why, at the time, but they never misbehaved in public. People used to ask me how I did it. I didn't have a formula or answer, just that what they do at home to misbehave doest not happen in the outside world.

Now adults, they said they never misbehaved in public because they didn't want The Look. I'm sure my Look was not as pretty as ilikefriday's is, but it must have been a sight. They also have said that when they were kids and would see other kids misbehave in public, it would embarrass them. They did not want people to think of them in that way or to be embarrassed in public.

I was very lucky in regard. At home, not so lucky some of the time! I used to say I had two sets of kids: the at home kids, and the out in public kids.

Ha - I think how your kids behave in public is more important than how they act at home - and is a good indicator of how well they've been raised.

Agreed. I always said proof of good parenting is how children behave when the parents aren't there. Rather like good character really. It's about how you are when 'nobody' is looking. Nobody being anyone who would care because there's ALWAYS someone looking. When my middle child got her first job at an ice cream place we of course went for ice-cream. I LOVED telling her 'I wish THAT girl that was serving ice-cream to people lived in my house"!!!!

Sometimes I wonder if ya'll read anything besides fantasy and fashion magazines. How did you miss the story after story of teachers leaving teaching in DROVES? Anyone notice they changed from 10 years ago when teachers said "it's not the kids it's the parents" that are near impossible to work with. Now they are saying it's the kids and the lack of help from administration and all these pie in the sky social experiments!! This social experiment you think sounds so warm and fuzzy doesn't work! I only raised three. I don't know the reference talked about above. I am more than proud of how mine turned out. Everyone I knew wanted their kids to be bffs with mine--hoping the responsibility, self esteem, empathy for others would rub off. I never used capital punishment. Didn't have to. I also didn't have a nanny, send mine away to school or camp all summer. We spent time together. Lots and lots of time. You are correct I come from a different world. And gosh and I grateful!! Oh and so are my adult offspring. They have all said on more than one occasion "when I have a kid I am bringing them to you to raise". Highest praise out there.

I’m not sure where you get the impression that we all raised our children with no discipline. But it sounds like most of us did not deprive our children of security and safety.

But even my kids will agree that the namby-pamby rewards system for good behavior in classrooms frequently fails. and my long-time teacher friends say that the classroom environment has changed. They way they are required to teach, and threat of suits etc, and demanding parents, affects how they handle their classroom.

But, I remember being a chaperone on a second grade field trip. Mind you, this was in 2002. The kids were becoming quite loud, we parents were ineffective (no one wanted to correct another parent’s child!). Mrs P stood up, turned around to face the children, raised one hand and scanned the faces, and they settled down immediately. It was magical. So at Vacation Bible School when a ”guide” was having trouble quieting down her troop (she was actually majoring in early-childhood ed and telling her troop ”we are not going in to MrsBpath’s station until you all are quiet”), I went over, stood in front of them, held up three fingers and counted down quietly. Bingo. Without commentary, we turned and walked to my station. Kind of like that ”number of words” rule.

By the way, the full title of that book is “How to talk so kids will listen* *and listen so kids will talk”. I never read it but I liked the concept of listening so kids will talk. Our pastors led a course in dealing with middle school kids and that was a big component.

i could not be prouder of my adult son and how he is raising is own son. he once told me that he uses many of the methods i used when he was being raised.

i once texted him by mistake because he and my yard maintenance guy have the same first name. my text consisted simply of "hey, can you mow for me on thursday? my yard is looking like a jungle". i had no sooner sent the text and my phone rang. it was my son calling to tell me he could be there later in the day on thursday, he would leave early work and also asked if i needed for him to stop for gas for the mower. i was so confused at first until i realized my snafu. i thanked him and explained what i had done and that i would NEVER ask him to leave work early (or even come on a weekend) and make a 100 mile round trip just to mow for me! we had a good laugh but he also told me IF i ever needed him for something like that, he'd be happy to come out. :)

@ bpath - that's the title of their first book. Our library had only the one for little kids.

And I take exception to the words 'namby-pamby'.

The biggest reason teachers are in such short supply these days is low pay for ever increasing amounts of thankless, often unsupported, very difficult work, and money being siphoned away from public schools to pay for private schools isn't helping anything. It's happening in my state.

" I never used capital punishment. "

You obviously don't know what this term means, unless you're visiting the internet from prison. It's comments like this that cause people to question the rationality of things you say and not take your comments seriously.

Lapsus plumae, we hope.

I'm guessing 'corporal punishment' was what was meant...?

Carol, by namby-pamby I’m talking about things like the candy jar where good behavior garners a candy added to the jar, bad behavior removes a candy. By the end of the semester or month or week, whatever, if the jar is full the candies are shared among the class. Well, half the class doesn’t care whether they get a candy or not, they will behave or misbehave. Kids who care are subject to the misbehavior of kids who either care or don’t care. There is no connection. That’s what I mean. And all the kids see through it. That’s all I mean.

Malaprops, misunderstandings, ignoring facts, outlandish beliefs, baseless propaganda and the like, pepper such comments. Pick the one you want next time to call attention to.

Daisy, can you be more specific on what's considered shame and punishment? I'd rather die than shame my children. Kids do need punished at times, like if they do something after you told them not to, so they can learn cause and effect. I'd send my boys to their rooms but not often.

Daisy, mentioning respect brought back bad memories which ended in wonderful memories thanks to my DIL when she began teaching, which was 1st grade at the time.

She's in the same elementary school my boys attended, and back then they had Student of the Month. Which means only 9 kids per class for the year. Some of them got a SOTM every year while others never got one all during elementary school & it had to hurt the kids too.

A friend told me at the time that her daughter was constantly misbehaving, but she didn't have a learning problem or anything. Just very opinionated and argumentative & definitely didn't qualify for the award. Her teacher told my friend she's going to give the girl the award for the month to see if it would give her a bit more self-respect & kind of make her behave better. It worked like a charm.

Before DIL began her new job I told her about the story and how her DH never got an award and he was well behaved and made good grades. Never could figure it out and it also hurt me. Know what she did her first year? She changed the one award per class to 4 different awards per class. One for kindess, etc. Every child in that school got an award and they're still doing it. The parents were informed their child was getting an award but kept it from the kids. Once a month they give them out and all kids go to the gym not knowing who's getting one. But when they see their parents and grandparent there, their eyes light up! Only family goes to the awards. So proud of her!

I apologize for talking about my DGD a lot, her brother is just as sweet as she is. This is at one of the award ceremonies and she's walking to accept her award.

The look for sure! But when my 3 sons' friends were acting up I would say, "Keep that up and I'll kiss your face off!" It worked!

My son, who is no kid, got told off by a ranger for riding his dirt bike into a restricted area with his friends. Ranger was cool about it and they left, but this picture reminded me of how many times I gave him this exact same look. some things never change.

This morning while laying in bed drinking coffee I clicked on some Gerry Brooks videos, they're all about elementary children, parents, and teachers and downright hilarious. This one is funny but also serious.

The video reminded me of something horrendous I witnessed which I'll tell you about below.

This was back before substitute teachers had have credentials in order to sub. I subbed both elementary and HS when my boys were there. Actually sent one of them to the principal. :)

One day I was subbing at the high school and I ate lunch in the teacher's lounge and felt really out of place, so I just listened as they talked.

An older male teacher started bad mouthing an 11th grade boy and said he couldn't stand him because of his ADHD. I have it but didn't know it, and I knew nothing about ADHD except it was some type of disorder which got a bad rep at the time.

My next class was Chemistry and I'lll be darned, the boy was in the class which was arranged the typical way, rows of desk. Except his butted up to my desk and the first thing I thought was OMG, they really did this to him? Permanently traumatize him why don't they?

One of the teachers instructions was at the end of the hour to choose the best behaved student. I actually got to teach from the books and I knew nothing about Chemistry. See, I had ADD. lol We had a fun time because I knew most of the students.

The whole hour the boy was quiet and when we'd look at each other he'd give me the sweetest smile and I'd start a quiet conversation about whatever. I knew is mother was an RN.

The time came to reward a student and of course you know who I chose. He looked at me as if I was insane and then gave me the biggest smile I'd ever seen. My heart skipped a beat..,.until....the mean girls all said "HIM?? Why?" And a few others joined in. I knew the boy probably wanted to crawl in a hole so I stood up and looked those gorgeous mean girls in the eyes and said, "Because he was the best behaved student while you all gossiped all hour."

Got 'em good, and the big smile came back to the boy's face. Now I want to cry.

It was not my intention with this post to insinuate that my children were neither angels or devils in public. They were just little kids who have good days and bad days. My daughters are also twins so often did what we referred to as the Twin Spin. When one of them would get silly, the other would feed off that and together they became oblivious to what was going on around them. Hence the arm hold. For the poster who asked why I had to keep discipline secret in public, it was because I was raised to always have a low calm voice and to never make a scene in public unless I was in danger.

Oh Oakley - your story reminded me that something I've learned over the decades of working with school age kids is that children who've been labeled as 'bad' by adults will often attempt to endear themselves to new adults by being on their best behavior - at first. Kids who give me a big hug the first time they enter my classroom are often the ones I notice having behavior issues later on.

That said, I firmly reject the idea that children are ever 'bad' or 'good'. With children, their behavior is communication, and it's my job to discern what it is they're trying to tell us.

I'm fortunate that our city rec department is big on child development training and teaches staff to work with kids having behavior issues, rather than resorting to just punishment without understanding.

First sign of any potential to misbehave, mom would, gently, place her hand on the back of your neck. Usually didn't go any further because next was a gentle squeeze, and then, lastly, the fingernails digging into your neck, as you were marched out the door!

One day in church one of my boys was acting up. I pinched his inner thigh to get him to quiet down.

Oops, he said very loudly, "Mom, why did you pinch me?"

I wanted to crawl under the pew!