Small condo's R22 CentralAC repair or replacement options-any advice!?

10 months ago

Hi,

For a good friend of mine who, is disabled with daily caregivers service visits, turns to me for advice:

We live in Colorado Springs Colorado.

He owns and lives in a small 777 Sq Ft 2 bedrooms, single floor condo with a full crawl space underneath, build in 1973.

There is another condo unit partially above him and his attic is very well insulated so fans work well for any heat he feels in the summer.

The condo is simple, you walk into his front door and to the left is the dining room(with water heater and HVAC closet) and kithen and stacked washer/dryer. To the right is the living room. Straight ahead are the 2 bedrooms to the left and right.

See pics.

His condo has a central AC R22 unit he would use just occasionally in the summer, which has now stopped working several years ago.

He has been comfortable without it yet he recently came into some money, so he would like to get it working again, mainly for when out of town family might stay for a visit.

It's a Lennox Model #HSW4-261-1FFP per its data plate, found on the compressor Condensor combo, which sits outside his kitchen window on a concrete pad.

Data plate also says: Max AC amps 16.1, R22 4lbs 10oz, high pressure 455 psi, low 150.

See pics.

Online says this AC model is a 2 tons unit.

The Evaporator sits in a box under the furnace in a closet in his dining room.

His furnace is new from last year, a Goodman 80% effecient forced natural gas.

I found service Information online for his exact Lennox AC system:

https://www.hvacpartsshop.com/content/lennox-air-related-manuals/HSW4_Series.pdf

I know a bit about AC systems just from working on my own cars. I do own a vehicle AC manifold pressure test kit.

I suppose his AC system problem might just have a leak and is too low on R22 to come on now.

He is calling AC/Plumbing companies and they have given him 2 new central AC system cost estimates which seem high to me. He is seeking a few more.

Both companies have said the R22 refrigerant can't be bought/system repaired and they did Not try to trouble shoot his system at at all.

Instead they only say it needs to be completely replaced.

Yet I see online there are R22 freon replacements availaible...so I'm confused.

I'm encouraging him to use Yelp and Nextdoor app to review and compare companies.

BUT First and foremost I'm trying to figure out if it's possible that his current system can just be repaired for a resonable price?

What do you think:

Here are the 2 estimates he has gotten so far, although he hasn't gotten them on paper yet....

One paper he lost and the other never gave him anything on paper!

This is all he wrote down, he doesn't know the tonage-sizes, what brand...or:

1. $8,600 for a Seer 14 or $9,700 for a Seer 15-effeciency rating.

2. $6,378 from another company "w/seniors discount applied"

I think the law allows them to go over their estimates by like 10% as well when they do install...for unforseeables...

Well we'd like any suggestions or advice or critisism on this!

Q's review:

1. Is R22 keeping the old unit from being repaired? If any R22 is left in the system isn't it valuable?

Aren't their direct replacements for R22?

2. How do the estimates look?

3. What AC brands are good and which are bad?

4. Can they go over their estimates?

5. What are we missing?

Thank you very much for your time!

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Comments (4)

PRO
Austin Air Companie
10 months ago
Questions:

1. Age of the unit + it uses R22. (Equipment doesn't last forever) Is R22 valuable? It is against the law to take freon from one unit and sell it somewhere else, it must be cleaned and certified to be so. (if this system's reason for not working is a burn out compressor, the refrigerant is worthless 9 times out of 10)

Replacements for R22 assume the equipment is worthy of such. Due to age of this equipment it would be a waste of money in my opinion. The con in repair is knowing when something is worth fixing vs replacing. Some markets in HVAC are different than others due to use. Your climate is at best 2-3 months of use per year. That's the reason most likely that it has lasted as long as it has.

In Katy, Texas I haven't seen anything this old in probably over 20 years.

2. Bids are bids that are primarily based upon cost of equipment, cost of labor, cost of materials for extra things associated with the installation, 1st year labor warranty provided by who is installing it in the event something goes wrong.

Cut your labor rate then you cut the pay of everyone working for you. If those people are skilled they leave and go to make more money somewhere else. You get the tail light special, as soon as the tail lights go out of the sevice van you never hear from them again.

So arguing over price of what someone charges vs the skill of people on their staff? They aren't selling you a pizza. If this new machine breaks you better hope they can fix it. Just hiring an installer is a risk you will bear when the machine breaks again. It will. Prices vary by market no two markets are the same.

3. Brands. There is no perfect brand. There is the skill of those doing the work, in some instances the problems you have could be a direct result of the skill who put the system in or in some rare instances could be defects of the equipment. All brands can and do have defects don't kid yourself. Although they are quite rare maybe 2 pieces out of 100.

The refrigerant problem you're dealing with now is on the cusp of changing for the stuff you are likely changing to. 2025 is likely to be the equipment cut off for R410a. Maybe worse for places that like to follow in the footsteps of California and their style of restrictions on what you can and can't do.

No manufacturer covers the cost of refrigerant should your new AC spring a leak. (read the fine print of the warranty litterature that you should receive when the job is complete)

2.5 hours in video embedded below telling you how, what, why, where and when all this is happening. It won't end in 2025. About 10 years after that the process of phasing out and banning is likely to begin anew. (this will effect every refrigerant currently in use, not just R410a)

Brand will matter very little, if the refrigerant it uses is phased out / banned / restricted etc.

4. Not sure what you mean by this

5. HVAC is slow to change, but when changes come they come at a price.

I service the Katy, Texas area,
mike_home
10 months ago
This AC is very old and has not been operating for several years. Most HVAC contractors are not going to attempt a repair and then return during whatever warranty period they provide if the AC is operating poorly. R22 is very expensive and they want to use this as the reason for not doing the repair. You can keep trying to find someone who is willing to repair it. If your friend plans to live in the condo for several more years and has the funds I recommend to the AC replaced.

The estimates need to list all the model numbers of the new equipment and a description of what work will be done. If Colorado Springs requires a permit for the installation, then the estimate should state the cost of the permit. Normally the contractor will be responsible to apply for the permit and make any changes if the inspection fails. I recommend only working with a licensed contractor. In an AC replacement, everything that is to be replaced is usually visible. The estimate provided should be the final price. It is possible some additional work was not anticipated at the time of the estimate. Your friend should discuss how this situation will be handled with the contractor.

I would not be too concerned with the brand name. It is more important to find a reputable contractor who will do a correct installation and stand by his work in case of problems. Your friend needs a basic 2 ton or smaller AC condenser and coil. Has the contractor who installed the Goodman furnace provided a quote? If not that then would be a good place to start. A rating of SEER 14, which starting in 2023 is now changed to a SEER2 13.4 is fine for this installation. The current thermostat may be able to be reused. If not a basic programmable thermostat is not expensive.
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Yeah that's R22 and while that is a builder grade Trane unit that is probably out of warranty by now... typically those were sold with 5 year parts warranty. Because R22 Freon was already obsolete by 2013. With that said, this condenser 'could' last another 10 years, provided the coil repair work is done appropriately. The replacement coil needs to be a coil suitable for R22 / any coil can be retro fitted to work, but skill is required in choosing the coil. Typically home warranty companies are known for tom foolery. If the condenser was a dry condenser (nitrogen gas) it would say it was on the data plate in some manner. That's the down side in anything Trane or American Standard because they were one of the last manufacture's to switch over to R410a refrigerant. The R22 conundrum only effects you if there is a leak... otherwise it doesn't matter much. While the cost for it will only go up now that production has ceased, it's serviceable life is still around another 10 years or so. Without United Technologies Corporation heavy investment in R410a AC equipment development we would be no where near where we are today. R410a equipment has been available now for almost 20 years if you can imagine that.
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That would mean buying a dry system (if there are choices they are limited) and then going out an buying some very expensive R22 refrigerant. R22 production is scheduled to stop in 2020. You can imagine how expensive it will be if you have to repair a refrigerant leak or it would even be possible to buy R22 refrigerant in the future.
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Folks,in what is becomeing increasing common,ya'll sure wandered a long way from home to debate issues based on speculation,presumption or conjecture. Is it not bad enough contractors fill customer's head's with half truths and lies to cover up deceptive trade practices? If we must get into these things,can we stick to complete facts instead of half truths? In the state of Texas where the issue of licenseing was raised in this thread,consider this. 75% of installs are done by individuals who are not licensed but instead operate under another's license. Of those installations,most times licensee never even see's the site,much less inspect's the work. Texas cover's 268,500 square miles and a single license will cover every square inch and as many employees as the company can keep busy. Compare that to electricians,where not only must they visit every site with their license on file,they must perticipate in every minute of the job. Ditto for plumbers. With all that in mind,consider if you will. The law doesn't require any part of the hvac installation be done by or under the supervisoin of a license holder other than the refrigerant evacuation,charge or disposal by an EPA certificate holder employeed by a licensee and a portion of electrical must be done by a licensed electrician. Occasionally a protion of condensate drain must be done by a plumber. If the homeowner is doing the install,the plumber and electrician are not nessarlly required but refrigerant can not be done by homeowner unless he has credentials. Why you might ask do we even bother with licenseing hvac people? Because a bunch of good ol boys got togeather a few years ago to conspire and run mom and pop operations out of business. They bought off state legislators and the rest is history. Lest anyone think's I am slamming Austin Air,"tant so"and here's why. A.A. is a small company on every job he contracts so the customer recieve's the benifits of his knowledge and training while a neighbor is getting work done by a multi-million dollar entity's surrogate like I spoke of earlier. What does it mean? The guy who unstopp's your toilet or change's the porch light switch has many fold the hours of training than the one who installed your hvac system. If the average gearhead has a friend or can buy a friend to guide him through it,he can install a mini-splt with exception of refrigerant part. With the benifit of a few specialized tools,a dedicated homeowner could install central as well. It is not an endeavor requiring great intelligence or technical ability but the fat cats who bought the law makers will try and make you believe it is..
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sktn77a
10 months ago
Pricing is very location-dependent but the estimates you give seem high for what are probably "builder grade" (ie bottom of the line) systems. Get more estimates - for only occasional use, you don't need a high-SEER, fancy system, Bottom of the line 2 ton systems sell on the internet for ~$2000-$2500, labor is usually about the same, so you should be looking at about $5000 for an AC condenser, coil and installation.
kevin9408
10 months ago
If the compressor is shot or the refrigerant charge has been breached (leak) it would be wise to replace the unit. If a simple component has failed such as a capacitor, electrical contactor, or some other control component it would be a simple and inexpensive fix.

But the A/C companies refused look at it to see so this is the problem as I see it. If you can find a knowledgeable individual to trouble shoot the electrical components it may be a cheap way out for your friend. The capacitors a A/C compressor uses are a common failure often found in older units and usually cost less than $50.

Small condo's R22 CentralAC repair or replacement options-any advice!?

Comments (4)

Austin Air Companie

mike_home

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