I would consider a lift window instead. No tracks at the bottom to deal with.

A lot of the enjoyment or not of this depends on your climate. Where do you live (not exactly, just the general location)?

I've actually done this in a kitchen project of mine with a large slider window, but we live in the Bay Area where mosquitoes are not really a thing. The client loves it and we built a bar with bar stools on the outside just under the window.

I live in Cleveland, Ohio. The winters are brutal but the spring and summers are beautiful.

My mothers voice in my head " are you so lazy you can't just walk 10 feet to go around?"

" how practical are these windows "

Spend the dollars on a good one for energy efficiency (which will still be not great).

"I am afraid the bugs will get in where the window is fully open"

100% they certainly will.

Thanks everyone. Lorraine, I thought about that for a long time but somehow, bringing all the stuff in an out is a lot of work. I usually don't feel like using the deck because of that.

I don’t think they are meant for Ohio. Don’t you have those “no-see-em” bugs? And mosquitoes? Flies? Etc. It would work if there was a screened in porch. Secondly, are you tall enough to lean over the counter and reach something on the overhang? Would anyone actually want to sit facing the inside?

We are in Minnesota, so similar climate and bugs. We re-designed the kitchen area in our lower level last summer, and used 2 single hung windows, side by side (that fit the existing framing). IIRC, each window is 40" high by 42" wide.

We incorporated an extra large "sill" into the casing (10 inches wide x 8 feet long). It works well to "stage" things so you don't have to open the window so often.

And yes, it greatly reduces the number of trips in and out for serving and clean up!

Depending on the weather, I can just raise & lower the screen, or, if the AC is on, raise & lower the window.

There's been a few other discussions on Houzz recently, regarding which stone surface should or should not be used for the exterior.

The lighting isn't the best in these pics!

@Verbo,

Are you replying to the OP or to my post?

We used the single hung windows installed in a normal fashion.

We set them at the right height for the raised serving tables that we use outside.

For the number of people we usually have, it takes two 8' tables to hold all the food.

I’m confused - do you have a dining room? To get to the deck, you have to walk around the peninsula, through the family room, out onto the patio, and then to the deck? Are the deck and patio the same level? Will you have a grill outside?

Those are good observations ShadyWillowFarm. Yes, I have to walk all the way to the family room to go to the patio. The deck would be a two level deck where the area right outside the family room is on a slab and it would made out of pavers. The "upper" level would be at the same level as the kitchen with two steps going up since our layout is a split level. I am trying to minimize having to go all the way to the end of the family room to use the deck/patio area. I don't want to put a door inside the kitchen to the deck because it will take a lot of room that I can use for kitchen stuff like cabinets and another sink.

I had the same opportunity to connect kitchen and outdoor dining area. My climate is almost always either way too hot, or too cold...literally maybe 3 weeks in a year that it would work. I chose 3 windows, 1 large fixed in the middle and my side casements open. All the windows are down to the countertop, easy to hand out something if I need to.

I’ve spent a bit if time in the mid west…Toledo and Chicago, in particular. Warm weather season is short, humid, and buggy. I don’t see that setup being very practical in Cleveland.

Honestly unless you improve the door access to the deck i don’t see this being used very much, especially in ohio…

Given the lack of direct access from kitchen to your deck I can understand why you are considering something like that.

The reality is that access to a deck patio is a factor in whether it is going to be used. I doubt whether many people actually wind up using their roof decks and carrying stuff up two flights and a spiral staircase and then back down.

Is there some way to get access through a "window" that is just opened temporarily so that bugs aren't an issue.

I live in California and do outdoor dining a lot and there is generally a flurry of getting stuff out there and then back in again but really not more so than if you are serving in a formal dining room where the table is in the kitchen. What I am suggesting is some kind of "window" on the patio that can be used to hand things back and forth but isn't the kind of large pass through that is meant to be open all the time.

Thank you Helen. I am considering switching the position of the current patio door to be right next to the kitchen. It would still be in the family room but on the other side. I hope this would make it feel like it is part of the kitchen area. Right now the outdoor is not inviting for dining or even for coffee because the access door right now is too far.

Go back to the drawing board on the entire kitchen design. For a host of issues, having nothing to do with pass through windows. First to go? the stools in their location. NO.

Consider a full range versus cook top, add but one oven. Both sinks need not share a window view. It's just totally flawed and quite inconvenient. If this was a cabinet sales man design? Get an independent KD......

We aren't seeing the full condition of the living floor, but this? No.

I like the idea of being able to pass things through to the outside. I may not do the full open window, but would do something with a screen that is easy to open and close.

One of the houses I grew up in had a pass through. It was originally a milk door. It was absolutely wonderful for moving stuff between the kitchen and backyard. I'm sure some bugs probably got in when the door was open. But it sure was better than walking through and around the house with everything.

I too would opt for building in the double hung window with the wide sill for passing through. Second woudl be the lift window. Last choice would be the folding window since it requires the lower track and I'm not fond of folding windows in general. If you get a retractable screen, or a half window screen for a double hung- or even a portable screen for a double hung you can leave your window open and not worry about bugs.

I really wish I could have a door from the kitchen to the deck but I would loose too much space that I need for cabinets and extra sink.

I’d put a door here because it’s awkward with the stools meeting the 90 degree cabinets and counter anyway

Fix the design issues, door or no door. I am certain religious faith plays a role here in the double ups. But the design is quite unsuccessful as is.

This may mean taking space from the living room.....who knows? But the current? Not good.

Everyone wants stools in the kitchen. But yours may have to be sacrificed to the more important thing. A design that accommodates the faith requirements?

Thanks everyone. Yes, it is a kosher kitchen. I am trying to have space for two sinks and two ovens. Only one fridge and only one cooktop is ok.

As I said.............if you need two ovens? You trade the cook top for a full RANGE.

But you need an independent KD. Not the guy who squashed this all in thoughtlessly, and you WILL need a couple sacrifices, or a big bump to the exterior.

Just start over. Please. Google Kosher kitchen KD in your area . Many are VERY familiar with the stringent requirements most of the rest of us may deem arduous. : )

I designed with this one in the Chicago area. I hate flies so I would not do it in my own home, but this client really likes it.

I do not have experience with those windows as far as energy efficiency. I can tell you that your granite top that extends through that window to the outside will be very cold on the inside. As far as a screen - there are ones that you can attach independent of a window and pull across. It may not be super attractive, but if it serves its purpose.

I do have to agree with others about this plan. Is this a new build, addition or just a renovation?

The immediate thing I see is the size of the sink base cabinets. You really need to think about what you are cleaning in each of those sinks and how big they need to be. I don't care for the seating either but there's not an option if you really must have seating in the kitchen.

Do you really need to have the living room and a family room? Many folks will get rid of one ( especially if it is not used alot ). You may be able to grab some real estate there and create a fabulous kitchen .

Good luck

Thank you everyone for the wonderful comments. It is very insightful. Here is a new design with a door to the deck directly from the kitchen. Do you think this is better. I was thinking that instead of two separate sinks I can have a very large double sink but I was thinking like a 36" double bowl or even a 42". Maybe the door should be a little smaller too.

Start from somewhere with ONE range and opposite sinks, a closer exit?

I liked the original layout better. And using the window pass through idea. How many people do you usually have in the kitchen? Do you entertain?

The window pass? Hardly allows a human body. Needs an ARM or total human body on the other side. This isn't going to eliminate it if you want it. But all the wish list? NO. Not going to happen conveniently.

Any kosher kitchen I have ever done, the sinks needed to be separate, with separate counters so there is no chance of crossing over the meat and dairy.

I still have the same question about the living room area - Is that space up for being used as something else??

I would not do a 5 ft slider - you need more "kitchen" .

What about this? Too much?

It was just an extreme thought

It's not extreme at all : ) I ran out of scratchy time to do the same thing.

I think you need to know your priorities and what is going to function best on a day to day basis.

I bbq in the summer all the time, I love eating outside on the patio. I don't mind walking through the dining and living room to get outside and my guests go outside through the living room, but having to carry trays or containers of food through the rooms is a pain in the butt.

I have always wanted a pass through window so that I can easily transfer the things I need for outside food prep and serving from the kitchen to the bbq area.

I also remember thinking in my last home how much better my kitchen would be if I didn't have a door going from the kitchen to the garage. I really could have used that extra counter space.

Even with a door in the kitchen you will have to walk the trays of meat and bag of corn and the ketchup and mustard and pitcher of lemonade back and forth, where a countertop pass through you can just slide the stuff through the window.

I always loved the movie Cheaper by the dozen, where the dad times each activity to see what was the most efficient way to do everything. I loved it more when I found out it was written by two of the children of Lillian Gilbreth, the woman who is credited with creating the kitchen work triangle.

I like to look at my space and figure out what will be the most efficient, most functional space for the way I use the space.

Is this a kosher kitchen?

If so and you are very observant, you really need two sinks separated by some amount of counter space.

I am a completely non-observant Jew but I am familiar with the logistical difficult people have who keep kosher with one sink - even with divided bowls. There is a reason that one of the first things people try to do is get two separate sinks for milshik and fleishik.

Also - again depending on your level of observance two ovens would be necessary as well or else since many very observant people have logistical issues with only one oven. Less problematic than one sink but still impacts the ability to cook "normally" because of what you have to go through to switch from dairy to meat in the oven.

Thanks Helen, yes. Ideally I would need two ovens but I can make do with an oversized taster oven that fits a lasagna pan inside. I am tempted to loose the two totally separate sinks and have one big double bowl sink with a system that covers the unused sink so spills of one material (like meat) does not spill into the "dairy" sink.

And thanks to everyone who has sketched and played with the original drawings to help me figure out the space. Such a nice community of people. Thanks!

Consider the Breville oven for your dairy. They make a large one that truly takes the place of a regular oven so it is good for baking. One issue with standard toaster ovens is that even if a pan fits there isn't sufficient room for circulation so that stuff just doesn't cook as well.

The Breville is large and I think also would require a high amp plug so if you think you could use it think about a suitable place and make sure that you have the correct plug for it.

As I posted I don't have a kosher kitchen but I know that my observant friends really value having two separate sinks. Obviously people learn to work with one but it seems as though that is something that is installed if at all possible. Of course my Bubbe had only one sink and I think it was just a single bowl sink at that

Also there are some stoves that are configured with two normal sized ovens. Years ago I had a very old Caloric stove that was from before the days of microwaves and it had smaller oven where a microwave would now go over the stove and it was really convenient. I can't remember the brand that now puts out the double oven stoves - it's relatively new on the market.

I have seem those ovens but the oven on the bottom almost sits on the floor and I have a lowerr back issue. It does not work for me ;( I will check this Breville. Thansk!

@rebunky I liked your idea. Which window - brand, type - did you use for this kitchen pass through window? Please let me know.

Rebunky said her "friend did" not her.