In the industry I think "counterdepth" has become misleading. Now that a "conventional depth" refrigerator seems to include things up to three feet deep, a full 12" beyond the cabinet depth in some cases, "counterdepth" is now something up to 28". And I think this is because consumers like the idea of something more streamlined, but it's not really delivering at 28" as far as I am concerned.

We had a non-built-in but counterdepth fridge from 1969 and the door was only slightly proud of the cabinetry. It was replaced with a conventional depth fridge in the 1980s that stuck out about 6" including the door. This was replaced with a "counterdepth" fridge in the latter 2010s that stuck out almost as much as the 1980s "conventional" depth fridge.

They keep getting deeper and deeper because people want more cubic footage, but kitchens continue to be designed as if lots of fridges were not 36" deep.

With regard to the wall oven under the cooktop instead of a stove, I think this is also something that depends on the situation.

I had a kitchen that was roughly 6x7. When I remodeled it, I went with a cooktop and wall oven together. The oven stuck out 1-1/2" from the face of the cabinets including the handle.

Subsequent owners updated to stainless steel and put in a range. It sticks out about 5" from the face of the cabinets. In a small kitchen that makes a huge difference.

Plus a cooktop and built in oven is a slightly sleeker look than a range, if that's what you want.

“opted for two paneled appliances - refrigerator and stove”

@Helen - did you mean refrigerator and dishwasher?

@ M Miller - yes my brain was thinking dishwasher and my fingers were typing stove. I don't even HAVE a stove which makes it even funnier - I have a wall oven and induction cook top.

I design only with stainless or fully-integrated appliances, not paneled. While integrated appliances are an upgrade, they are not 100% necessary. A stainless refrigerator will never look out of date. But in the right design, an integrated appliance works really well, regardless the size/expense of the home.

Actually when I got my design degree available stainless fridges were few and far between unless you went Subzero or commercial

They lagged behind stainless ranges by a few years.

Actually as part of thread creep, if anybody likes cars check out the stainless steel 1936 Ford Deluxe, 1960 Thunderbird, and 1967 Continental.

When we remodeled the kitchen in our last house I chose to have cabinet panels on my fridge and dishwasher. This decision had absolutely nothing to do with the appearance of projecting wealth. It had everything to do with the appearance of my kitchen being pleasing to me and I chose to spend the extra $$ to do it. I moved after ten years and the appliances were still working so no info on what happens when they need to be replaced.

If you don't want a standard fridge to stick out ask to have your fridge surround constructed deep enough to cover the sides. The house I currently live in has a deep enough surround to cover the sides of my full-size fridge completely but for the door that needs to extend beyond the cabinetry to swing open. And these aren't high end cabinets, just somebody made a smart decision when they were spec'd out.

I'm so fascinated by all your comments! I didn't understand what I was asking in my title. There's a difference between integrated and paneled apiances. I'm going with the term integrated now, because that the correct word for what I was asking about. It makes sense to me that some people would want integrated apiances just because that's what they want, and to them the extra cost is worth what they get. I can relate to that. I also can see how it might be that a person with a modest home might want to fill it with quality finishes. I'd rather have a smaller home with high quality finishes than a larger home cheaply built and furnished. I still haven't decided. Can anyone show me open vs closed pictures of their appliances? It's just so different to me.

Kristen, I love the cabinetry in your photo. What is the wood and stain please?

“Can anyone show me open vs closed pictures of their appliances?”

Here’s some pics from the internet:

The stain finish is proprietary from the Seville Cabinetry line. It's called Cascade on Cherry. It's a greyish dark brown.

My daughter lives in London and has a kitchen with an integrated refrigerator and dish washer. While i do not care for the look of the cabinetry , it is the size of the fridge that drives me crazy. The picture makes it look large for some reason, but it is actually very narrow and shallow. I have no idea how it would be replaced in order to match the cabinets, which seem like they are made of a ” plasticy metal”.

Thank you Kirsten. Sounds chocolaty delicious.

Can anyone comment on grapefruit's dislike of the "plasicy feel" of the fronts of these appliances that are integrated? Do others have the same reaction to the feel of it? Or is it just some brands or materials? It caught my attention because of my experience with laminate flooring: it looks fine and sounds like a great alternative flooring, but I don't like how it feels or sounds when I walk on it.

M Miller, thanks! I was unsuccessful with my googling. It's really amazing to me to see these open. Obviously I never was in a kitchen with them. I've always lived in tract housing, massive subdivisions. We moved around a lot. I lived in a 1920s house once, but the kitchen was even less luxurious than a tract home as the kitchen was just a large room with individual appliances and a sink unit with a big table in the middle of the room. Just like my grandmother's, very nostalgic! But definitely not integrated.

I was interested in knowing what a Subzero refrigerator was and googled this: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/homeowners/subzero.html

I had no idea a refrigerator could cost $10K. I'm wondering if that is with or without the integration. I don't mind spending extra for quality and features, but I am a bit fussy about reliability. I just spent around $900 on a toilet and bidet seat with all the bells and whistles, but I am expecting durability. Perhaps that is naive. It's an experiment to find out if we really like this luxury before installing one in each of the coming three other bathrooms, or at least in some of them. This first one will be in a powder-room-replacement that will someday be an aging-in-place sometimes room. At first it will be used by company, and I think it will be fun to see what others think of it. I wish I had a friend with integrated kitchen appliances so I could check them out. I love having a radiant-heated driveway and steps to the front door. I love telling the neighbors about it and why I wanted it...so I didn't have to shovel or slip on ice anymore.

Now, having read all my thoughts and experiences, are some of you thinking integrated appliances are just not in my world? Am I revealing my plain-Jane economic background? Or are some of you thinking, "Oh, just wait until you try it. You'll be hooked!" I don't know if some of you can already tell if these are for me or not.

Helen, is your induction stove top an Invisacook? That is anouther interesting camouflage feature.

Toronto Veterinarian, can you please expand on what you hate about the look? I sincerely want to know.

K L, it's a combination of a couple of things: Aesthetically, I don't like smooth, unchanging, or featureless - I like texture changes, angles, and corners. I also like some clutter - it's a sign (to me) that the room/area is lived in by people with unique personalities, not by faceless, generic people like a hotel room would be.......Hiding appliances behind cabinet doors seems like the ultimate in lack of personality, where even a person's personal preferences in appliances are hidden from view. (That's also why I like and use fridge magnets.) That's not an aesthetic choice as much as a philosophical choice, perhaps.

Thank you, Toronto Veterinarian, for enlightening me. I also like multiple contrasting textures, at least in living rooms and bedrooms, so I will consider this aspect seriously. I'm not as big a fan of clutter though, but I am content with keeping it off the counter. I crave clear horizontal workspaces. But when I originally asked the question I was looking for all aspects, so I really appreciate your sharing. I still am interested in all aspects.

My 2 cents...

I have one kitchen with paneled appliances and one without.

In my experience, the cost between panel ready and stainless are pretty similar, actually our panel ready refrigerators were cheaper and dishwasher was more. We mostly didn't want to spend the extra money on the refrigerator so went with panel ready. This may not be the case for everyone as panels can vary widely in price.

In our paneled kitchen we needed integrated refrigerators for space reasons, essentially every inch of refrigerator depth in excess of cabinets was an inch of island width we lost. We ended up buying the stainless steel skins for our refrigerator doors also when they changed the model because they were cheap.

I am generally ambivalent on the aesthetic of paneled refrigerators but like paneled dishwashers (we also have paneled drawer refrigeration).

“I wish I had a friend with integrated kitchen appliances so I could check them out.”

Isn’t there an appliances store or kitchen and bath showroom that has some on display? Where will you buy this if you decide to go ahead? Who will make the panels - it needs to be done with some expertise. If you are the only one in your locale who will have a paneled integrated fridge, which means there is no one in your locale experienced with paneling an integrated refrigerator, I’d not do it.

“I had no idea a refrigerator could cost $10K.”

By the time you pay for the panels and installation they are way more than that.

I am not a fan of paneled appliances because I want my kitchen to look like a kitchen. I do not see a need to camouflage my appliances. That is my personal taste. Sometimes it is good to break up what would be an unbroken large wall of cabinetry with the metallic gleam of stainless steel. I also would simply rather spend that amount of money elsewhere. Again, it’s personal choice.

Where I grew up -- I just checked--the nearest Subzero showroom is 100 miles away, the nearest Gaggenau showroom 300 miles away. the nearest Liebherr showroom 100 miles away, just as a sample of integrated refrigerator brands.

When I was trying to help my dad find a replacement for an ordinary 27" double wall oven, the nearest appliance showroom was 36 miles away, and it was a big box store, not a showroom of any sort. And I bet even the people who Sell appliances 36 miles from me have never seen an integrated refrigerator and maybe don't know they exist.

And its is in the Northeast, not in the middle of Montana or something.

One of my friends had a Subzero in their kitchen. Before that, they had had one of those 1955 GW wall hung refrigerators and there was no place for them to put in a conventional freestanding refrigerator without an extensive remodel, so they squeezed in a 27" SZ built-in. This was prior to integrated.

Not only did they have trouble even getting someone to Deliver a single appliance from 100 miles away. The installers said "You'd better hope this never needs service, because I don't know who's going to come from hours away to fix it".

In contrast, I have a showroom less than four miles away, a dealer about 1 mile, and a dozen dealers within 10 miles. So the availability/accessibility is highly regional.

As for the panels, I don't think they are necessarily all that expensive if you use a simple door style. A standard cabinet door panel fit on my DW, and I don't remember the slabs for my fridge being all that expensive.

I went with integrated not to show off but because my kitchen is open to my living room. When you walk into the living room from the foyer, you look straight ahead and see the dining room alcove and the kitchen wall with the fridge, the coffee tall cabinet, the glass cabinets with all the glassware and fiestaware and the stained glass window. Having a hulking ss fridge would not work aesthetically.

I don't know of any integrated refrigerators that aren't extremely expensive. However, a Subzero lasts for quite a long time - my friend just replaced the one in her home which ran well for 30 years with a few service calls.

On the other hand, my very cheap refrigerator which I bought in 1985 lasted for 30 years as well. It wasn't elegant but it kept stuff cold 🤷🏼‍♀️ It used a horrendous amount of electricty though.

People don't buy integrated Subzero refrigerators because of the longevity in my opinion although they theoretically are better in keeping things refrigerated because of the configuration. If I had it to do over again I would have gotten a Subzero but I am not a typical home remodeler because my remodeling choices were not based on resale or return on investment at all and because I could spend as much as I wanted within reason. I didn't get one because when I started on my remodeling journey I just didn't think Subzero refrigerators were for my relatively modest middle class life style - but after going through the remodeling journey and writing checks for $6000 electrical panels and $1000 faucets, I realized that the Subzero was a relative bargain in the scheme of things. 🤷🏼‍♀️🤣🤣

My induction cook top is not "invisible" but is the Bosch model without stainless trim and since my granite is Black Galaxy it is about as invisible as one could achieve

I am not understanding an objection to paneled appliances based on there not being sufficient texture or visual interest. My cabinet doors are quarter sawn oak and of a unique design and quite beautiful - much more beautiful than a stainless panel. Also my kitchen is right by the door and so the first thing one would see is the refrigerator and I think the wood doors are a much nicer welcome when one enters. My doors were designed and configured because I loved them so looking at them pleases me more than a stainless sheet would. 🤷🏼‍♀️ But it really is a personal design choice. I am not trying to hide the fact that it is a kitchen because it is obviously a kitchen with a huge copper sink on that same wall. However since my kitchen is open and part of the overall design of my condo I also wanted it to be as aesthetic as possible to me and I like my cabinet doors more as a design element than stainless steel.

Middle class people will spend $53,000 on a Ford Expedition and I don't think the first thought that goes through other people's heads is that they are trying to show off, but put a $10K refrigerator in a middle class kitchen and somehow that's only there to impress people. Hmm.

I considered a built in, because it would give me more aisle room in a small space. Then I researched the price. 😬 The house needed a lot more things to be done to it with that 15K than keeping my celery fresh. I chose to go the European route, with a smaller overall fridge, and more frequent grocery shopping. That choice is easier than ever with online order and pickup.

@palimpsest I also don't understand the judgment regarding how people choose to spend their money.

At least in terms of my remodel I spent for choices that pleased me and the cost of many of my choices would not be obvious to anyone visiting me. They might like or dislike them but they wouldn't have a clue that Encore tiles are more expensive than other possible choices.

I certainly didn't make any choices based on "showing off" because if I wanted to show off I would be driving a Mercedes instead of a 2017 Lexus. I realize that it is relative since Lexus is somewhat of a luxury but so is Bosch as compared to Frigidaire.

As I wrote I somewhat regret not getting the Subzero when I remodeled - not because I wanted to show off but because it would have a definitely life span of more than 20 years so I wouldn't have to face the prospect of choosing a new refrigerator during my foreseeable life. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Miranda33, you are so very correct that I am embarrassed. I completely forgot that a person can GO shopping. I am just now aware that integrated appliances exist, but, now that I think of it, I remember when shopping in a real store pre-pandemic, and waiting for someone to make up his mind about which washer to buy, I noticed a far corner of the appliance store that there were cabinets. And I thought something like, "I didn't know they sold cabinets. Must not sell much, because it's a small corner." I wonder now if they sold integrated appliances. 

Thank you for breaking through the concrete in my head. Growing up it was always Sears appliances. In my first home Sears or Amana was all there was. Then I moved to the big city. I remember panicking the first time I walked into a grocery store. I am in an area with lots of options and should just get out and look. Still, you all are educating me in preparation for my real shopping trip. I know a bit more about what to ask about.

Johnson Brothers Contracting, I like your imagery...Rolls Royce in a tarpaper open shed....

Helen, quarter-sawn oak! I love an old buffet I got at an estate auction for the wood, and I think it could be quarter-sawn oak. If your cabinets are like that, I can definitely see they have enough texture and interest for any kitchen. And a copper sink! If it's not too much to ask, would you mind sharing some pictures showing these features? Sounds beautiful! And I'd like to see how you tie it all together.

Cpartist, thanks so much for sharing pictures of your home. They make your point very clearly. That refrigerator blends in very well and doesn't look awkward at all, because it looks like cabinetry. Excellent! Very lovely home by the way. And I love what appears to be stained glass over the sink.

It's just dawning on me that the two main kitchen appliances that get integrated to look like cabinetry are dishwashers and refrigerators. An oven or microwave won't be integrated because you have to see in...or maybe you don't, I don't know. Let me know, folks. So here is another question... For the dishwasher, do you have to settle for fewer options/buttons or seeing how many minutes are left in order to have smaller control panels to complete the camouflage? And if so, is this negligible? Sometimes I look at my own dishwasher and wonder what those other buttons are for, because I just push "on". Does anyone have advice on integrated dishwashers, especially regarding controls? 

Regarding refrigerators, I already saw one comment that you wouldn't want an ice/water dispenser in the door of an integrated refrigerator. That makes sense I guess (any opposition?). I just recently got a refrigerator with an ice maker after 30 years without. Mom loved her ice maker that crushed ice. I was always discouraged from getting one because I was told they break easily. But my hands started to ache, so I insisted finally and love it. But it's not in the door, so that's irrelevant, except maybe helps others understand why I know so little about integrated appliances.

Clarification: I love the quarter-sawn oak look of the buffet I bought. I realized after reading it someone might have thought I broke it apart like it was just any wood and maybe burned it or something. Eegads!

Usually panel ready DW are full-featured with more options than a midrange DW.

"Usually panel ready DW are full-featured with more options than a midrange DW."

I'm sure that's true, but they're not necessarily more full-featured than a high-range DW that isn't panel ready - in other words, you can get the same features with or without a panel, if you chose.

"An oven or microwave won't be integrated because you have to see in...or maybe you don't, I don't know. Let me know, folks."

That's more about heat transfer and air circulation, I expect. Since you can get drawer microwaves, I'm sure you can get integrated microwaves if you searched for them.

Yes, a paneled DW will usually have identical features to its closest stainless steel counterpart. But they don't typically have LESS features because the controls are hidden.

You can actually get cabinetry to conceal a conventional oven. It's UL listed and has an electric interlock of some sort so the doors can't be closed over the oven while it is on, and for a certain cooling period afterward.

This may seem like a complicated mechanism for no real purpose, but I have seen pictures of this in houses where they have a vintage range and want to conceal an occasionally-used modern oven, in a boardroom type meeting space where there is a fully concealed kitchen along one wall for catering purposes, and in a small New York apartment where the cooktop and a small microwave convection oven were in the kitchen and the full-size oven was in an entry hall outside the kitchen.

"You can actually get cabinetry to conceal a conventional oven. It's UL listed and has an electric interlock of some sort so the doors can't be closed over the oven while it is on, and for a certain cooling period afterward."

Huh! Cool (pun intended)

Another point I heard recently on a design podcast is that oftentimes, the first thing that looks dated in a kitchen are the appliances, and paneling extends the longevity of the design.

This is how I change up the look of my dishwasher

We had an integrated panel for our dishwasher when we renovated our kitchen. Then 6 years later the DW died. And we could not use that panel on a new DW. So we replaced it with a white DW and it looked fine. Not as good as the white paneled DW. But fine.

So just beware that appliances fail before the kitchen needs replacement! In fact we are now on our 3rd DW in this 14 year old kitchen. Yep. Oh and 2nd fridge. Something to consider!

Paneled DW to the right of the sink. Miele DW with controls on inside top edge of door.

These are not great photos - especially the one attempting to show the refrigerator because I have a narrow galley kitchen and there really isn't a way to get the right perspective - also I was in the middle of unpacking my groceries - hence the shopping cart.

Without cladding I would have had one wall which would have been a stainless steel refrigerator - a stainless dishwasher - the copper sink and a small set of drawers which I think would have looked terrible.

My kitchen is a part of my dining area and living area so my goal was to make it as aesthetic as possible while also increasing functionality. Nothing I have done decreases functionality and much of the stuff I did increases it including extending cabinets, having toe kick step stools and a Bosch side opening oven. As others have stated dishwashers that use paneling are generally full featured and the controls are on the top of the door. My prior Bosch dishwasher was stainless steel and also have controls on the top as I liked not having the controls visible AND I liked not have to clean around buttons on the exterior.

In terms of functionality - I do have an ice maker in the freezer section but I did not want either a water dispenser or ice dispenser on the door especially since I don't drink the water that comes out of my kitchen faucet as my building has very old plumbing pipes and terrible crap sometimes comes out of them after the building has had a water shut off.

This is a photo of my "clad" and paneled refrigerator - the door to the hall of my building is immediately to the right of the shopping cart so the very first thing one would see would be the refrigerator

This shows the drawers between the refrigerator and the sink

This is a terrible photo of the "wall" which illustrates why not having panels really would have destroyed the look of my kitchen. I don't think the paneled dishwasher and refrigerator lack texture and interest. I am not sure why having two stainless features would have improved the aesthetics in any way nor do I think that I am "disguising" that it is a kitchen - does it look like it isn't a kitchen?

This is the other side of my galley kitchen - The Bosch induction cooktop is pretty invisible. Just out of sight is a wall oven and microwaver drawer - not paneled but because of where they are the aesthetics are fine.

I extended the cabinets into the rear of my dining area for additional storage. One tall cabinet is a utility closet and the other houses a pantry with rollouts plus an appliance garage so I can easily access my Cuisinart and KA Mixer

This is a picture of the cabinets in the dining area with dining table and chairs in place.

Helen, thanks very much for sharing your kitchen photos. The detail in the cabinets definably provides lots of texture. What is the brand and name of that style? It reminds me of Frank Lloyd Wright style.

I love your color accents, orange from copper and the wood, plus deep teal are commentary. Love the heron. And I have long enjoyed the way black enhances the grain of oak. I chose black for my appliances when it was popular and was surprised at the effect on the oak. I agree stainless steel would not enhance your appliance wall; stainless steel works better in white or pastel cabinetry. You have convinced me that a black countertop should still be in the running for our future kitchen re-do.

I like the idea of having dishwasher controls in the top of the dishwasher, as I don't like having to squat down to read them when the washer is new and I haven't memorized the location of the "on" button. It's the main reason I don't use available options.

Really beautiful kitchen, Helen. And I love the extension into the dining area. You are right; it is not "disguised" as much as it is up to the standards of beauty of a formal living space. Maybe those aren't the right words either. 

Thanks again for sharing!

@KL - The cabinets were custom made by a local cabinet maker but they were indeed "inspired" by Frank Lloyd Wright's "Prairie" aesthetic. I had been looking for inspiration for my cabinet doors because I was a bit bored by Shaker and my favorite styles were Art Deco, Art Nouveau, Frank Lloyd Wright and Arts & Crafts.

I stumbled onto the Crown Point cabinet website and fell in love with the look of their "Prairie" style doors. I showed them to my designer and she used them for inspiration for her design of the doors which were executed by the local cabinet company who also did a lot of other custom stuff in my unit as I gutted the whole thing - a large desk/wall unit in the office; my "stripper pole" media center/room divider as well as my dining room table which was also based on a French Art Deco table I fell in love with when I saw a picture.

Crown Point Praire Style Cabinets

The copper feature behind the cooktop was based on an Art Nouveau statue of a crane which I inherited from my mother. It was designed by my designer and executed by Premiere Copper

It doesn't show up but the knobs and pulls in my kitchen are a Prairie inspired style fro Notting Hill

http://www.nottinghill-usa.com/pulls

Helen, those are my favorite styles too, plus British colonial. I will check out the websites provided. Thanks!

I wanted integrated in our last home because it fit the look of the desired kitchen style. We called it the pantry wall, but SZ freezer tower, fridge tower then three pantries lined the wall. Yes, they do cost more but worth it for me. Even though I told the cabinetmaker I wanted five doors, the first drawing showed the three pantries as six doors. I paid extra to have more substantial (thicker) doors to have the visual desired look. I am a visual person and those extra doors would have driven me crazy because I had been seeing "this" kitchen in my mind for a year.

Fridge cracked open. SZ has a built in water dispenser on the inside frame. Freezer tower had an icemaker but we did not use since we had a nuggest ice machine next to the DW - both integrated. My preference is to hide appliances.

SZ last for decades. My parents had one for 30+ years before replacing.

Ignore the clutter, this was taken early on. I do not like to see small appiances. so the last pantry was used for this purpose. The coffeemaker tray pulled out for convenience. In the house before this, they were in the walk-in pantry.

If you are still in the planning stages, consider a baking pan drawer. The cabinetmaker had seen or never done one before, but they always suggest one now. It is very convenient and easy to use.

Allison, I also like the idea of a pantry wall. I love yours! Thank you for sharing. And your photo of the refrigerator door is perfect in how it shows what it really looks like closed and open. I like the look!

And thanks for the baking pan suggestion. It looks very useful. I will definitely ask about it. My kitchen will be last on the list of make-overs, so there is time for these great suggestions. Thanks so much for all the details!