Yes, I agree Diane. I've been threatening to move him. He gets some afternoon sun but I dont think it's enough.

Ashley, the leaves look perfectly healthy to me however the top growth looks spindly maybe because of aphids sucking on it or like Diane said not enough sun.

Diane, how big is your Abraham Darby now? What kind of zone are you in?

erasmus_gw, that picture is amazing! That's the kind of photo I've seen online that persuaded me to try this beautiful, reported fragrant rose. What did they spray with? To be fair, our soil is a bit heavy in clay and I may have not added enough compost so I might try that first at least on one of them.

I stopped using fungicides on the Austins (and other moderns) in 2010. All of the Austins died within 5 years, their expiration driven by chronic Blackspot infection. 'Abraham Darby' was very quick to die, being leafless for much of the year. Good riddance. Here, in a climate where disease pressure is quite intense, I would never attempt to grow it again. At its best, it never exceeded 2.5 feet tall, but I blame our heavy clay soil for limiting its size. Some things do very well in this soil, but many moderns are limited by it.

I still have a few of the older Hybrid Teas, and by comparison, 'Tiffany' is a tower of strength and good health. I think its the greatest mistake in the Austin breeding program - that much more emphasis wasn't placed on breeding varieties with far better Blackspot resistance. I find that odd, given the climate these were raised in. The Austins could have been so much better than they are.

I have many newer Austins in my garden and it's just their second year so maybe I need more time to observe. Over all, most of them are doing well and i don't spray. I have a few with some blackspot this year where they didn't last year. This year has been a nonstop wet year, quite a test. Lots of botrytis on blooms (OGR, Austins, other moderns) because it's been so wet. Even so, the little blackspot is nowhere near what is described here. Maybe the newer Austins have better disease resistance?

I've specifically stayed away from roses with a reputation as blackspot magnets, including Abraham Darby and Zephirine Drouhin.

Kit, I think there are some threads on here where Straw Chicago and others talk about organic soil amendments that can help roses be more resistant to disease. I haven't tried any but if you're looking at long-term health and avoiding spraying it might be worth a look.

Erasmus, your beautiful Abe Darby looks like my Augusta Luise. Now if my Abe looked like that, I would find him a more respectful nickname.

Kit, my Abe is about 2.5X3 feet. I garden in zone 7, semi arid desert, hence no fungal diseases. Diane

Augusta Luise

Augusta seems more bs resistant than Abe in my garden. A grafted Abe might do better for you, Diane.

I know. What I wanted was a grafted Abe, and the five gallon Abes at Edwards, my favorite local nursery, were sold out early that year. So, I thought I really needed Abe (don't know why) and ordered an own root, the only kind available online then, from a well respected seller. The rose was not bare root, but the leaves had been stripped off and it was soil free. I think this was in compliance with Idaho's strict rules about importing plant material. Abe never seemed to get over this indignity. I decided then and there I disliked own root roses. This was reinforced by the performance of an own root Julia Child, who is fine, but can't compare to my grafted Julias. The irony of this tale is that a woman had purchased every one of the Abes at Edwards, and after I got my OR Abe, this person returned all the grafted Abes to the nursery. I was quite irritated. An understatement. Diane

I don't get BS in my garden so that point is irrelevant for me, but not a lot of others. Diane

The fact is that - just like most of the entities that have bred new roses in the 20th (and 21st) century - Austin UK relies on grafting to a strong understock to evaluate their new selections. So they are giving a skewed performance evaluation of their selections that does not fully take into account how those selections perform on their own roots.

You can be sure than 95% of roses bred in the past 100 years will under-perform on their own roots when compared to the same cultivar grown on a strong rootstock. Its just a fact. Many of the Austins (in my experience) are very modest (weak?) growers even when budded onto 'Dr. Huey' (or equivalent), so you can be sure those types will really, truly suck when growing on their own roots. I grew 'The Prince' budded onto R. multiflora (Pickering) for a decade and it never exceeded 24" tall, at best, always struggling to grow at all. I don't dare imagine what a crappy plant that would be on its own roots.

I have 2 Abraham Darby (2nd-year own-root). Both are in partial shade, 3 to 4 hrs. of sun. The Abraham Darby that I spent 2 hours digging out ALL THE cement clay & rocks at a depth of past 2.5 feet is 100% healthy, no rose-slugs nor blackspots. That spot is so fast draining, that a 3-gallon bucket of water drains INSTANTLY at a depth of 2 feet.

But the Abraham Darby near the rain-spout get a touch of blackspots during 2 inch. of rain per day. I also spent 2 hours digging that hole down past 2 feet, and test for drainage by dumping a 3-gallon of bucket, it drains in less than 3 min, but NOT FAST enough for my heavy rain climate.

CONCLUSION: Own-root Abraham Darby needs fast drainage to stay healthy, and best in loamy soil rather than poor drainage clay. I grew mine in pots first before transferring into my dense & black gumbo clay. I drilled zillion of holes in my pots (even on the sides), in a fast draining potting soil, and 2 Abraham Darby were 100% healthy in pots, except I had to water these fast draining pots twice a day, plus lots of sulfate of potash.

Below is my Abraham Darby's 1st bloom in pots. Note the glossy leaves (require more potassium to stay healthy), My alkaline clay is high in potassium & lots of dandelions, all my 34 own-root Austin roses are healthy IF DUG DEEP ENOUGH for drainage.

Austins with climber-genetics (Abraham Darby, Evelyn) need a deeper planting hole so their deep roots won't be water-logged during heavy rain.

Most Austin roses have deep & chunky & woody roots (like trees) and need good drainage past 2 feet. In contrast, Blue Mist (miniflora) has shallow cluster root and can stay healthy even in poor drainage clay.

Below are Khalid's young own-roots Austin (Golden Celebration, The Prince, Geoff Hamilton) in his FAST DRAINING and LOAMY soil. His Pakistan has a monsoon season (raining the entire month), but his soil is fast draining & deep and loamy so Austin roses are 100% healthy as own-roots:

Paul Barden,

That is interesting. I never thought about it like that. It makes sense about own root.

Strawchicago, Thank you for this information! I think I am still in denial about how hard like cement my clay soil is and didn't do all that digging and amending you did for these poor Abe's. I feel guilty that I could be unfairly casting shade on this rose simply because I'm not providing it the proper ideal conditions. I think I need to get some more compost and fix the situation. The photo of your Abe in a pot is beautiful and that photo of Pakistan is so colorful and beautiful!

I know you don't get bs, Diane. I can see how you'd be irked with that woman. I like Abe's rebloom, the vigor of the plant ( again, grafted), the warm colors, and especially the fragrance. It's also hardy here and can take the heat.

Some of my Austins do well own root and some are better grafted. Here's my own root Golden Celebration. I grew it from a 3" cutting which I planted directly in the ground a long time ago.

So a grafted one may well be bigger . But this is big enough for me.

The best plant of The Prince that I have is in a large pot, and it's rooted through the hole. It is only about 4x4' but is well-branched and has great rebloom. It's bs prone. Tiny rooted plants of it lack vigor and take forever to get to a decent size. But it can become a decent plant. It may take awhile. It's just a faithful bloomer. Plenty of my own root Austins have perfectly adequate vigor .

I have had plants get healthy as they matured including Austins and own root. So much depends on the weather too. I put alfalfa pellets under Cadenza and Rosarium Uetersen one Spring and got immediate BS on the leaves. I guess that was too acidic.

I must say I absolutely LOVE Abe Darby. We have about 16 rose vaeriries in our garden and for me this my second favourite after Chandos Beauty. It does suffer from black spot but I grow mine up a tree so that they pop out and flower in front of the tree therefore the foilage is hidden. The blooms are just stunning. I even love the buds with their marbled burnt orange and flame colouring. They smell incredible. The blackspot is indeed annoying but the blooms and smell of this rose definitely outweigh its shortfalls for me.

These are all photos from within the last few weeks.

I must say I absolutely LOVE Abe Darby. We have about 16 rose vaeriries in our garden and for me this my second favourite after Chandos Beauty. It does suffer from black spot but I grow mine up a tree so that they pop out and flower in front of the tree therefore the foilage is hidden. The blooms are just stunning. I even love the buds with their marbled burnt orange and flame colouring. They smell incredible. The blackspot is indeed annoying but the blooms and smell of this rose definitely outweigh its shortfalls for me.

These are all photos from within the last few weeks.

Sorry for repeat post - internet is so laggy today!

I don't have any 'Own Root' Abes. I do know that both of my Fortuniana grafted Abes have way less blackspot & bloom more than my Doc Huey grafted Abes.

I'm happy to see my Abe is putting on some fresh growth.

@Ashley Smith zone 5a - looks excellent! very strong and healthy growth.

@strawchicago z5,

Since you've posted that comment about drainage I took your advice and worked on the sites again as well as some others. I got 2 cubic yards of loamy soil...

I dug around and below all three Abraham Darby roses except for one direction so I didn't disturb the roots too much and replaced the hard parts of clay with loamy soil. I also did this with a Crown Princess Margaret rose. I think I already see an improvement. It's still early of course and I might have to do more in the future. I was so exhausted in this heat but I think it will help. Thank you!

@Alfie,

Beautiful pictures.

@Ashley Smith zone 5a, It's looking really good. Please share an update in future. I enjoy seeing this rose in bloom.

Abe sent out several more blooms and I have to say I love them. And another redeeming thing about Abe is that the JBs seem to ignore him.

@FWF Zone 6 how's it working out so far? I just took Abraham darby out of its spot in the ground (garden soil mixed with clay) and put it in a 20in tall pot full of fresh potting mix. I'd like to use air pots that size but they're sold out right now. My hope is that since the pot I'm using is taller, there will be better drainage, and old Abe will come alive before first frost. That will give me a little hope for next season.

@DLEverette_NC_Zone7b Abe is doing much better after improving the drainage situation like Straw said. I feel bad for calling this rose a disease magnet. The blooms are so good and depending on the weather so is the fragrance. I love the color. I removed Olivia Austin because the color was almost white. Now Ancient Mariner is looking white too. But not Abraham Darby. There are only two canes but they pump out flushes--well, basically two roses at a time with short breaks in between. I'm hoping to see a new cane or more next year. I like your idea of growing it in a pot at least in the beginning maybe only because I read so many experiences that it eventually gets quite leggy. That's why I planted next to a gazebo.

FWF Zone 6 Your Abe looks great: nice color and very healthy.

@Flowerescent NJ Zone 6 That's really good to know it's working out for you in the ground now! When mine was in the ground, it barely grew because I didn't make the soil loamy enough. It's in a raised garden bed, but not high enough to not include the native clay soil. So, I'll have to dig much deeper the next time I plant something there.

As a side note, I planted The Generous Gardener in the same spot Abe was in a couple of years ago. It only took one season before it grew like a weed. I suppose certain roses don't mind a clay soil. I just hate having to figure all of that out, so I'll just use loamy soil from now on when planting roses in the ground. I bet that would cut out a lot of problems for roses in my humid zone 7b.

Back to Abraham Darby though, I had to cut it back a bit because of drooping leaves after relocating it. The poor guy is pretty much bare now, but at least it has a decent branch structure haha. Still, I'm hoping to get at least something from it this year, if nothing but the shiny leaves and attractive bush shape to let me know it's healthy. Abe seems to like blooming so maybe I'll get a nice flush too. Fingers crossed!

Thanks for the update and thanks @strawchicago z5 for your (always helpful) tips on digging deep in clay soil. This might be a game changer for me!

DLEverette_NC_Zone7b Countless own-root roses, including many trees died in my zone 5a winter thanks to my NOT checking for drainage, such as digging down to 2 feet, then pour a 3-gallon bucket of water.

If a bucket of water doesn't drain in less than 5 min. at the bottom of the hole, roses will blackspot or else die during freezing rain in winter.

In my garden below, 4 out of 8 trees below died, thanks to freezing rain in poor drainage clay. These trees were over 20 years old.

If I had known to dig out rocks at 2 feet level with the below long spade, I could have saved money in roses dying through zone 5a winter:

Yesterday the bottom of hole was hard like cement, my long spade could not break through, so husband used a Pickaxe to break up rocks in the hole. Even for tiny own-root roses, I dig a hole 3 feet wide x 2 feet deep so I can climb inside to dig out the rocks at the bottom. I'm 60, and husband is 63, so we dig big holes now before we get too old.

The 20x20in air rooting pots I've been waiting on came back in stock, so I ordered some last week and they came in yesterday. I went ahead and re-repotted Abraham Darby in one of them. Gonna get a caddy to put it on so it doesn't make my deck more messy than it already is haha. I could tell it's already responding to the potting soil, as I saw new root growth at the ends of one of the tap roots when I planted it this time. That looks promising. We'll see how it goes!

That looks great !! My 12 gallon air-pot is quite heavy. Husband used a lift to transport the pot, but he had to put boards at bottom of the lift to support the wide base. The lift is handy and it can wheel over 100 lb.

DLEverette_NC_Zone7b I would love to see your future pics. !! It's fun to see the progress of the bare-root.

Thank you @strawchicago z5! I'll definitely keep you posted. I just use a dolly to move my pots most times (not sure if that's the same thing). I've even been known to "walk" them short distances sometimes too haha.

I am reaching out to you all. I had the most glorious Abraham Darby rose. When I sold my house, I left it there figuring I would buy another. However, I cannot find a potted or even bare root anywhere in the US. I went back to my old home hoping to get a cutting and they had redone the garden, getting rid of all my roses. I was heartbroken. Does anyone know where I might find this variety in the US?

😭😭😭

I know! I have grown a kabillion David Austin roses and it is my all time favorite!

@katekelle - I can’t believe they got rid of these roses!! They should make that pubishable by law! Hope you find a cutting! If you lived in London I would give you a cutting.

Those air rooting pots are awesome! I am going order some..I have some ideas for them but they have nothing to do with roses lol.

@katekelle that stinks they dug it up like that. I believe David Austin Roses has discontinued this in the US, but the patent has long since expired, so anyone can legally duplicate this rose and give it away or sell it under the non-trademarked name (AusCot). Here are a few nurseries that sell it, but their websites are either down or they're out of stock at the moment, but it's worth checking back with them:

Long Ago Roses

Hummingbird Roses

Regan Nursery

@Alfie I know, it is a tragedy but I find that some people think dealing with roses is too difficult. Thank you for your sweet offer—I wish I was in London!

@DLEverette_NC_Zone7b Thank you. I will follow up with those places!

They also took out my 80 year old elm tree. It was beautiful 😥

Kate what's left? A bunch of grass?

Abraham Darby is my favorite rose so far but I'm new to roses. It only has a "Good" rating on Helpmefind. I guess it all depends on environment and patience. The scent was amazing. The only thing I've smelled more deliciously fragrant was a more mature rose Bonita Renaissance whose flowers seem to drive the bees crazy to get pollen. I'm currently trying to grow cuttings of it under lights.

"I went back to my old home hoping to get a cutting and they had redone the garden, getting rid of all my roses. I was heartbroken. Does anyone know where I might find this variety in the US? "

@katekelle That's disappointing. Did you have a label on it? I wonder if that would help anyone hesitate before removing it. Not everyone is familiar with plants and if it wasn't in bloom it might have looked like a weed to some. Regarding sources, Long Ago Roses carries some David Austins under non-tradmarked names but I don't see Auscot, the non-trademarked name for Abraham Darby, there right now. Cattail Creek Gardens was selling it last year and might have available in spring again. Kind of expensive but at least it's an option.

FWF, the code name for Abraham Darby is AUScot, as DLEverette said above. AUSbrother is Lady Emma Hamilton.

You should remove Regan as a possible source, since they are a re-seller of (mostly grafted) roses from the large suppliers, and don't propagate their own. You need to stick with the small own-root nurseries for the chance to score a rooted cutting of an off-patent rose, like Hummingbird, who is actively propagating them. And even some of those, like Roses Unlimited, have completely ditched their DAs.

Thank you @susan9santabarbara. I will fix my post. I meant to say Auscot instead of Ausbrother which is Lady Emma Hamilton, another currently unavailable rose. I don't know if its my eyes that missed the post about Long Ago Roses or if Houzz is playing hide and seek again. I've read Lady Emma Hamilton has incredible scent too. In any case, I'm really looking forward to seeing how Abe does in the coming spring with the newly amended soil.

I just noticed Abe Darby listed on the Reverence for Roses website under the name Auscot. It says out of stock but you can sign up to be notified via email. Just thought I would add this on to the above list of places to get Abe. I love this nursery. Now, only if, more places would carry Evelyn and the other hard to get older Austins!

I am planning to start propagating the off patents and old roses myself in order to save them. Once I get my greenhouses/ high tunnels in here and will be starting an online nursery. When we looked for property, I made sure we got one zoned for commercial agriculture with retention ponds and other ponds (back up water sources), a natural spring, field wells, and graded for a nursery with many acres to grow on. I will probably have a little of everything except citrus because its such a PIA here and cant be shipped out of the state.

@sultry_jasmine_nights (Florida-9a-ish) Are all of your grafted Abraham Darby roses planted in the ground? My own root Abe has struggled this year. It's grown a little bit, but not much. It has bloomed pretty well too, but is lacking the strong fragrance and is full of blackspot. My own root Golden Celebration has the same problem. Honestly, nearly all of my own root roses are underperforming and they're all in pots.

I wish I could try Abraham Darby on Dr Huey in a pot to see how it does, but I can't find it anywhere.

@strawchicago z5 I saw that you added sulfate of potash to your own root Abraham Darby. Doesn't that lower the ph of the soil? I ask because our rain tends to be acidic and the tap water on drip irrigation is alkaline. I wonder if that will cause problems.

DLEverette_NC_Zone7b sulfate of potash is slightly acidic and I use such a small amount so it doesn't matter with my collected acidic rain-water .. I put ALAKLINE pea-gravel and ALKALINE red lava rock in my rain-water barrels .. that neutralize the acidic rain.

@DLEverette_NC_Zone7b I've grown 'Abraham Darby' in several climates, and it was absolutely crippled by Blackspot unless sprayed with an unending regimen of fungicides. Own root, grafted, Huey or multiflora - the result was always the same. Its a beautiful bloom, but I have no patience for Blackspot Martyrs (as David himself used to say).

For what it's worth my Abraham Darby was beautiful and did very well until, for some strange reason, I moved him to a more shady area. He developed blackspot and declined, and blackspot was extremely rare in my garden.

@strawchicago z5 Thanks! I think I'll try it or some other high potassium fertilizer. I have some Miracle gro organics fertilizer lying around. It's 5-7-10 compared to the Tomato Tone I currently use, which is 3-4-6. I may try it next time and see what happens.

@Paul Barden I'm very much headed in that direction. The only thing keeping Abraham Darby and Golden Celebration in my garden is the allure of their large blooms and fragrance. GC looks amazing as a plant...until it blooms. Then it's covered in blackspot. I just don't like looking at unhealthy plants. If I can't give them what they need, then they need to be elsewhere.

'Bring Me Sunshine' looks to be a promising replacement for Golden Celebration. Looking at Evelyn or Emily Bronte to replace Abraham Darby if I can't get it to act right.

@ingrid_vc zone 10 San Diego County Interesting but it makes sense I suppose, since it's easier in the shade for moisture to develop. Is yours own root or grafted?

Why does Golden Celebration need to be replaced, anyway? It's one of my favorite roses, a huge almost continuous bloomer. I love Bring Me Sunshine, but it has lots of orange in it, which is great, but it doesn't look like Golden Celebration. Over a year ago, I contacted Austin about getting Bring Me Sunshine to the US, and they're snotty replay to me was to say it was too soon to know if they would release this rose in the US. Diane

Recent photos of Golden Celebration.

It looks beautiful. Golden Celebration is a great rose, but just like Abraham Darby, it struggles with blackspot after it blooms. Bring me Sunshine would replace Golden Celebration only in my garden....or maybe just join it. I still haven't decided :)