Thank you, @whistle_b , and here I thought my error was being lazy and not putting the accent on the a. À propos.

And schools aren't teaching cursive...

I'm sorry but I too thought that 5-2 was 3.

That bit about FIVE and IV ? I get it but really - that's just wacky silly.

And for the pix, 2 and 3 the hat is different.

As a retired teacher, I really have mixed feelings about the cursive debate. I realize youngsters aren't able to read old letters written in cursive, but where in today's world is reading/writing cursive necessary?

I always took notes in school in cursive as it's faster than printing...until I learned shorthand and then I took the notes that way. Also cursive is more secure as it's harder to forge than printing.

“And schools aren't teaching cursive...”

No, they’re not. One of my daughter’s teachers took it upon herself to teach her class. My son wasn’t as lucky. Pretty hysterical taking a 17 y.o. to DMV for his permit and watching him sign forms. His first name has ten letters!

So f-i-v-e, take off the f and e and you get IV which is 4 in roman numerals making it 4-2=2. That's how 5-2=2. I get it but I wouldn't have thought how to come to that. I don't like those kinds of "problems".

I think it would have been better written out. How do you take two from five and get four?

My children, 46 and 42, were both taught cursive. They both have terrible handwriting and sign their names with a mix of cursive and print! In fact, one had to miss recess many times to practice cursive. UGH!

Sorry, I'm drifting away from the original topic.

I don't get it at all!! Where is the logic behind that reasoning?? And if one takes murraysmom's hypothesis, once you have removed the 'f' and the 'e', you have already accounted for the minus 2. You don't/shouldn't get to take it off again!!

I can’t read old-time cursive. And I really can’t read the cursive from the relatives from Denmark born in the late 1800s, to the point that I have a hard time telling whether it is in Danish or English. So I’m not sure where I fall on the cursive debate. I do think that kids should have more typing class, their typing skills are pretty bad.

One thing cursive does do is hone fine motor skills, which all kids need.

They may not be teaching it in public schools, but plenty of kids are learning it anyway. I think it's just something today's curricula doesn't really have the time for, sadly.

And that original riddle is a brain teaser, not a math problem. It's good to practice thinking outside the box.

But I don't know if I'd ever have gotten the answer on my own, since I don't think about Roman numerals very often 😃

And that answer Annie posted shouldn't include 'in'.

I used to make A+ in handwriting in elementary school. I liked cursive because I thought it was pretty, and I started using fountain pens in the 5th grade.

When I learned German, I also learned German handwriting (which is not so pretty), and this allowed me to read letters than my great grandfather and his father had written, concerning real estate sales of their remaining property in Germany. No one else on that side of my family could read those.

When I learned Russian, I learned Cyrillic cursive, and that was much faster to write than the printed form. In fact, we never printed Cyrillic in my Russian classes - it was all cursive.

If people do not want to be able to read things, then they are missing out. Learning cursive is one of the easiest things to do, especially if you compare it to learning a foreign language.

The only time I went back to printing was in design classes, and I used a triangle and a parallel bar to draw the vertical lines of letters, which was required in those classes. It was quite slow, but it did give the architectural results that were necessary. I saw no reason to print anything else - my cursive handwriting (unlike my German ancestors) is extremely legible - providing the reader has a minimal experience with cursive.

If people do not want to write cursive, they should at least be able to read it. I use cursive when I address all of my envelopes, and they all get delivered.

Murraysmom, you said what I said above. One is an equation, the other is more of a riddle for lack of a better word. Or one is a ’math problem’ and the other is not. Silly.

"If people do not want to write cursive, they should at least be able to read it."

Why? According to whom?

Today's generation of learners, like several people have already said, aren't learning cursive. When people like you and I aren't around, and the younger people are ruling the world, will it be important or necessary that they should at least be able to read it?

I usually print, not use cursive as it's faster for me. On the rare once-a-year occasion where I need to sign my name, like on a check, I use cursive to sign my name. I print the rest of the information on the check. And I recently refinanced a mortgage. Didn't have to sign my name anywhere because it was all done virtually. Clicking the box with my mouse indicated my signature.

I'm a printer too - all caps, usually. Sometimes I write in a half cursive/half printing style. I'm pretty inconsistent.

And I think there will always be someone who can read cursive writing, just like there are people today who can read all sorts of archaic, ancient languages.

This is 15th c. English chancery hand. It requires special knowledge to read, and perhaps eventually our cursive will look like this to future generations.

I'm not sure cursive is going away any time soon. 21 states still require it as part of the elementary school curriculum and it is still taught and used throughout much of Europe. Even countries/languages with a non-Latin based alphabet have forms of cursive writing.

My aunt taught 3rd grade for 44 years and had the most perfect cursive writing which I emulated. I started college with that precise cursive style of writing and in mid-semester, I changed to the way I write today. My prof recognized the switch and remarked he thought it was two different people writing. It's half printing /half writing and it has not changed in all those decades. My daughter writes like me, my son like his dad.

One of my children always struggled with printing, but was so verbally expressive. When cursive was introduced in 3rd grade, suddenly written self-expression became so much easier and faster. Typing in late middle school even more so. Eventually the kid that missed out on the GT classes in elementary school ended up in GT in middle school and honors and AP in HS. Without cursive, that leap might not have happened. It was a needed tool. Not saying that everyone needs it, but some do. Me, I learned printing and Palmer Method, and like many people people,developed my own hybrid.

FWIW In the French school system, only cursive is taught. There are pre-writing fine motor skills activities, like drawing spirals and waves, in preK and K and then cursive in 1st. During the young years, all writing put in front if the child is written in both cursive and block letters for early literacy activities, like matching colors to their name. Red would be written in block and cursive, one under the other.

I don't know how germane this is to this conversation, but I sent mail to a friend living in Germany, addressed the envelope like I would in the US, with cursive. About 2 months later (!) it showed up in my mailbox, with no explanation. She then told me, via text, that Germany will not deliver any mail written in cursive! It has to be typed or printed.
I have a good friend who just moved to Japan. I wonder about sending mail to her. I certainly don't write in Japanese characters; but it's very ethnocentric to assume that I could write in English and have it delivered there.
I think there are more things to consider than what is going on in the US regarding writing/printing/cursive.

What is 'GT', please?

I read it as Gifted and Talented, @carolb_w_fl_coastal_9/10.

Shall we throw in reading analog clocks? How is it quarter past anything on a digital? Is it just memorized that "quarter past" means 15?

I think it's valuable for young kids to have a variety of activity, mental and physical. Cursive is one approach to developing fine motor skills -- finger control -- but then so is art, crafts, even video game controls.

Maybe kids should take an overview of both Cursive and Typing in elementary school, so they get an idea of how to write/capture info rapidly, using more than thumbs on smartphones.

I think it sounds like a fun logic puzzle. I am confident that the vast majority of people know how to do it as a math problem, but this way is more thinking outside of the box.

I'm pretty sure every generation finds fault with the next. Women wearing pants! Teenagers listening to that rock and roll music! I don't think people are less intelligent or educated, but more relaxed. People who were not born into the internet approached it with more formality in their communication than people born into the technology. I see it myself in the communication styles of 40 year olds vs. 20 year olds, all equally intelligent. Just one of many culture shifts.

Judging from the many spelling and grammar mistakes that I would have to correct in the research summaries of my BSN-MSN degreed coworkers, and the multiple grammar and (most particularly) homonym mistakes that I see every day in the newspaper and on-line articles, I would say that I certainly think that basic literacy education in the USA has faltered.

I think if the time spent teaching and practice of cursive were replaced by more spelling, grammar and "sound-alike" education then I would be fine with that.

However, I was and am still rather like bpath's child - if I had to compose a paper, report, essay etc, the task was much more easily accomplished by writing longhand, rather than trying to type (or print). Somehow the composition would just flow from my brain to paper. I think I would have not done as well if I had been doomed to type or print everything.

ETA: I recall in 4th & 5th grade, solving logic puzzles was part of our homework regularly, especially math logic (not like the one above, more like sequencing, pattern recognition, and so forth.) I've been wondering if including puzzles in the curriculum, even if just Sudoku types, would be valuable.

I believe the cause of so many typos in published items is due to lack of copy editing, not necessarily the fault of education. I understand copy editors are in very short supply now. Many were jettisoned by media companies as news profits declined, and perhaps newer companies didn't have them to begin with. It's more difficult to proofread one's own writing than that of others.

As for mistakes in personal and business communications, many people may not notice or care when there's a typo. I've lost count of how many times I didn't notice a typo until it was too late.

And how many people use talk to text? It's most definitely not foolproof!

I cannot write very well in cursive.

My writing is a mixture of printing and writing as well.

When I want thoughts to flow to the paper I record it on my phone. For my business paperwork I do spend time typing everyday on my PC as well.

I was held back for my lack of writing skills despite excellent grades in everything else. My eye hand coordination never did catch up.

In my opinion they were wrong to hold me back. So when my son had the same problem I said they could not hold him back. He as well had A or B grades in math science and even in English with his terrible handwriting. He had continued educational success and even better once he could type everything. Despite his even more pronounced disabilities he is a computer programmer.

I'm not sure what all this means except for that inherited disabilities in my family lends itself to imperfect eye hand coordination.

I'm often asked to sign my name in cursive and then print my name as well. Are younger people going to feel dumb when they don't know how to sign their name in cursive ? I certainly would, but being able able to read English in all forms is important to me.

I think my two older grandchildren know how to read and write cursive, but the youngest does not. She does know how to sign her name in cursive, thankfully.

I think we're doing a great disservice to children by not teaching then cursive, and their education is lacking something valuable.

Yeonassky, I went to French schools where in my day, penmanship was a huge deal. We wrote only in fountain pen starting in second grade (pencil only before.) My handwiting can be quite impressive when I apply myself, but failing a grade over penmanship is outraheous and that it could have happened to your children is incredible. Teachers who have no idea of what is worth teaching, yikes & yuk!

I learnt cursive and am able to print as well.. I adore cursive because I have a deep interest in callligraphy. I have been complemented on my handwriting and asked to do professional calligraphy. Another love of mine is the old fashioned pens.

Years ago, I worked in an academic library and was asked to translate old manuscripts in early French from the 1600's. i actually enjoyed doing this and have come to admire early handwriting. Reading old letters from my grandfather has been a real joy.

The draw a clockface test in medicine will need updating soon.

I'm with Lars; it's just more obvious but, at the same time, social media and the internet in general have provided more opportunities for folks to show their specific level of stupidity.

The Declaration of Independence was written in cursive, like many other historical documents. I think it would be sad if people could not read those in their original forms. I also think that it is a lot easier to be expressive in cursive. I realize that aesthetics is lost on a lot of people, however.

USPS shows how to address an envelope in cursive, and so it is perfectly acceptable for mail in this country. I'm sure that Germans working in the post office there would probably not be able to read German handwriting from the 19th and early 20th centuries, but then that has been discontinued for some time.

This is very similar to how my great grandfather wrote:

except that his was an older style than the Sütterlin shown here, which was introduced around 1915 and was what was considered the standard to be taught in schools in 1935. The older style from the 19th Century is a bit less legible.

Are younger people going to feel dumb when they don't know how to sign their name in cursive ? No, going by my DD's attitude they feel that we're the dumb ones for asking for such an outdated thing.

My eldest is getting his first real job and has a contract to sign, he went back and checked the signature on his passport to make sure it would sort of match. I was surprised he thought of that.

Congrats to him, you and your husband, Zalco. That's a big accomplishment and something to be very proud of.

Thank you so much, Elmer. We are tickled pink for him, and yes, a wee bit proud too.

Oh, I'm sure you're more than a wee bit proud. If you're not, you should be. His success is your success is his success.

Re mixing up homonyms, I think it has to do with the the muscle memory our fingers have. I've often typed up a post and saw nothing wrong with it. Then after posting I go back and see a wrong homonym. I had no conscious knowledge that I'd made that mistake at the time. But it was apparent on proofreading. Once I even typed "hour" instead of "our". I absolutely know the difference, but my auto-typing fingers apparently do not. There are certain words I seem to type that automatically get an "ing" added even though I have no conscious desire to put that on there. So I agree, it's probably more to do with proofreading and copy editing than anything else.

And as far as typos, so many programs underscore the misspellings, you'd think they'd be easier to catch than they are...but then again we're dealing with autocorrect which decides it knows better than you do.

Microsoft must be really dumb as their spellcheck routinely ignores very common misspellings. My most frequent one - entirely my fault - is transposing the letters in 'the'. Apparently 'teh' is an accepted spelling of something.........what, I have no idea.

"Handwriting" and cursive in particular were school subjects back in the days when many of us were in school and methods and curricula had not yet begun to change from the archaic traditions of the then preceding 100 years. Now they're a bit more relevant to the modern world. We're still behind many other countries in the effectiveness of our K-12 system but for this one simple example, if you want to prepare youngsters for the world they live in, give them a keyboarding class (used to be called typing) instead of wasting time on handwriting. Cursive is one form of manual writing, not the only form, and not an end in itself. No one really needs to know more than one way, and the way that others will understand when reading what one person has written would seem to be the best choice

I thought keyboarding was pretty standard now. My DD had it in primary school, back in the late 80s early 90s.

AnnieDeighnaugh, I had a terrible time with my brain substituting homonyms when I was ill with West Nile, for several months. I was the principal researcher on a project at the time, and had to spend a lot of time going carefully over what I had typed in my proposals, consent forms, IRB reports and so forth to catch them. Then had a coworker read them, also!

Like you, also, I have always had a tendency to attach an extra e to the ends of random words.

Proofreading is the answer - I guess it just doesn't happen in print publications as it used to by either the authors or the editors.

My irritation is between vs. among. Why doesn't anyone know which to use? Between you and me, mind you. Among those who frequent GW, most probably don't care. I do.

The students get a unit of keyboarding in middle school, but not one of them can touchtype.

I do see one issue with keyboards, and it is that they are no longer consistent, the letters may be in the same places as before, but the special characters have moved around, especially on virtual keyboards.

Some states are rejecting mail in ballots because of handwriting disputes between the signature on your voter registration and your mailed in ballot.

My name has a capital D in it and I randomly write it two quite different ways. And I have been doing power-of-attorney stuff for a friend and have the same issue with a letter in her name.

I am the "PROUD" owner of a Palmer Method certificate earned when I was in 6th grade. Anyone else have one?

Well, I just read an interesting article. A letter was found, with an illustration, in a script no one could read. Someone figured out that it was old German script, and it was in fact written in German. The letter is a Lakota leader’s first-hand account of the Battle at Little Big Horn.Why is it in German? Standing Bear’s wife was a native German speaker. He dictated in Lakota, and she wrote it in German, in the 1930s, so the old script.

Anyway, the researchers had to figure out the script and what language it was, then find someone who could read the script AND German, and translate to English.

Btw, the story of why Standing Bear met his wife is sad. He was travelling with Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show in Europe, and was in Vienna when he learned that his wife and baby daughter fhad been killed at the massacre at Wounded Knee. While in Vienna he met Louise, and they eventually got married.