Bedroom #2 is big enough to place a closet (pax) just about anywhere. That's why I did not draw any.

I imagined a 3'x4' shower pan in there. The layout itself is what improves most, no more bumping into things.

The sky is the limit when it comes to ideas. I'm a DIY type of person, so I'm not afraid to tear out non-bearing walls and floors. Some studs and drywall and there's a new wall. But it's good to set limits and know limitations.

If the walls and Ceiling were not plaster, I would definitely be suggesting a bigger remodel for the entire hallway area, but it is not easy to patch the holes in the plaster ceiling where the walls were and make it look good without covering the whole ceiling with sheetrock.

we are NOT DIY types - all of this will have to be done by others. We can paint and that is about it! Sad but true.

Contractors coming over tomorrow to look, discuss, price. Will propose a few options to them and get feedback from on-site.

Trying to decide if I need an architect for this. Totally wish I had endless budget as I would hire an architect for a master-plan but might have to wing it. (don't hate me).

maxdc, we are in a very similar situation. Our master bath is a measly Lshaped 6x3x6x3. Budget and resale was the deciding factor. We gutted the space and added lots of lighting, reflective glass tiles and a frameless shower door. Although we could not increase the size of the space, carefully choosing the right materials truly makes the space seem larger and at least luxurious. Heated floors help too with upping the luxury factor. Can't wait to see what you come up with!

In this particular case, I think a good contractor can help you as much as anybody. It is more about finding out what you actually have to work with in this case, rather than great design ability.

@Amy Cali - do you have any photos? Sounds so nice!

I still wonder why 'a housing market' prefers two small bathrooms over one luxurious family bathroom (and perhaps a vanity in each room).

@rinqreation - I love not sharing a bathroom with my entire family! Bad enough that I have to share with my husband!! ;-). And I am glad not to have to share my bathroom w overnight guests (they use kids bath).

I lived in Europe for many years and many people strived for multiple bathrooms - even windowless just to fit a second one in. But I guess it is different where you are.

We had a beautiful family bath once - worked when kids were tiny, would not work now with Tweens.

Rinqreation - it does seem that we north american have some very set ideas about what makes a proper house and bathroom:

We must have 2 full bathrooms for the bedrooms. Two sinks, because we don't want to spit into the same sink as our sibling or spouse. Master bath should have a separate 'water closet' because seeing the toilet is a no-no. And my favourite are walk-in closets that are as big as - or even bigger - than the kids' rooms.

There's probably more that we see all the time that we "must have", but that seems to be the worst, imo . And I'm probably as guilty as everyone else in the race to 'keep up with the Jones's'!

Sorry - in case you can't hear my ironic tone of voice, I really just mean that our baseline for comfort - or what we think is standard - is changing more quickly than ever.

sorry maxdc it is still a work in progress but I can share with you the mid reno pics and some of the already purchased items

shower door

Thought I'd throw this out there: any possibility of relocating the master bath to the lower right in the master bedroom, incorporating that closet and corner? If you could run a main drain right down the outside wall, it might be possible. What do you think Fred? Have a look.

Here I am again. I guess I am done with Houssz!
I cannot believe how much free consultation you have gotten on what I still think is a poor investment.
You cannot make a great master bath from no space.
If I were you, I would sell, and bulld exactly what I wanted, wherever, or, if you can afford it, remodel the house entirely, as you seem to love the área. From what you have said before, you could get another loan and do that.
If you do not love it and want to keep it. Be reasonable with yourself and just do it! Move!

In the Netherlands you can have a prefab box hung to your house to enlarge your bathroom. Idea maybe? Because I do agree with JustYourStyle that investing in renewing such small space probably won't give the result you are hoping for.

I have 2 small bathrooms too. Was looking at toilet ideas and found veil toilets that are 21 inches from back to front instead of 28 to 31 inches. They are wall mounted with hidden tank and are eco friendly.

I was also looking at a murphy bed for my small guest room. They make them with storage on either side. M ight be an option for your master bedroom

In a discussion like this one, the poster has the opportunity to consider various options for the change they're considering. Many times it's paint color or backsplash type; often it's whether to paint the oak cabinets that are in so many kitchens. Frequently it's improvements to curb appeal, or like this post, how to improve the layout of a dated kitchen or bath.
Ideas can and should flow freely; some posters already have a set idea of what they want to do, and are looking for affirmation, and some are looking for ideas. The responders are a mix of professional, semi-professional, and non-housing-professionals, with varying levels of both experience and talent.
In any case, information and ideas are always a good thing.

@Just Your Style
Moving is not an option and a very extreme response to my situation, I dare say! Why don't YOU tell my kids that we will be leaving their home because some person on the internet doesn't think I should remodel my old, cruddy bathroom!

Houses need to be updated - this bathroom hasn't been touched since the 1980's. Does everyone with an old bathroom just up and move?

I am not interested in carrying debt for a massive remodel nor should I be expected to.

I am sorry that my remodel has got you so worked up! I will be sure to post photos of the finished product.

and "build exactly what you want" - is such unreasonable advice given the copious information I have supplied about my situation in this thread - I am not in the market for a "forever house" nor am I interested in the year or multiyear proposition of designing and building a house (and certainly do not have the budget to do so in this area).

You scoff at what you perceive to be inappropriate, misguided advice given to me on this thread and yet yours is just as absurd!

I did not intend to hurt your feelings, and I am far from scoffing at the advice.
I have seen this exact escenario so many times here in California, where owners worked very hard at getting improvements to a home which is not equal to the área, only to have the house eventually appraise at pretty much what it would have without the attempt to bring it up to area standards.
And perhaps what I should have suggested instead of what you feel is an insult, is to spend $300. or so before you tear your master apart and have an appraiser give you a good idea of what you will accomplish by doing this, based on your drawings and plans.
I am NOT trying to make this harder for you - I have been there when the bad news came so many times, that I just gave up listing those properties.
I surely do not mean to suggest that you leave your home if you love it.

What if maxdc knows better than they do what the market is in her neighborhood?

All sellers know more than the appraiser. However, appraisal is a pretty exact number.
The very first thing I did after getting a license to sell, was to take the entire course of appraisal, just as if I were going to be an appraiser. It seemed logical to me that if I were to tell buyers and sellers what a property was worth, I should know what it would appraise for.
I never had a surprise in over 20 years in two states and different counties in those states. But my sellers did, which is why I stopped taking listings from sellers who had an exaggerated idea of what their home would sell for.
Appraisers work in neighborhoods and áreas. They are liable to a great number of agencies in the process of buying and selling homes.
I am not one, never will be one, but I could be one.
Homeowners cannot possibly know what is going to be called on an appraisal unless they hire one and learn what the criteria for the dollar amount is going to be, and that will call for among other things, total sq. ft., no. of rooms, no. of baths., etc..
That is why I suggest spending a small amount, to learn what the selling price would be arrived at.
And, they may very well find a buyer who would pay whatever they wanted for the property, but even a cash buyer would be very stupid to not insist on an appraisal.
I am only pursuing this whole thing because I see an elephant running over the whole circus. I will say again, I HAVE BEEN THERE, WATCHED IT, TRIED TO FIX IT, AND COULD NOT.

Anyone who applies for a mortgage has to have their house appraised... as we all know. What's your point? Houses sell at market, as you should know. Why do you assume you know more than the rest of us, when you don't know who we are?

Why do you say that? It is true that if they apply for a mortgage they have to have an appraisal.
If a cash buyer comes in and falls in love with it, they would be very stupid not to get an appraisal, but they wouldn't need to have one. And then, you could have fun in the courts.

My entire point is to try to keep this mistake from occurring, and there have been several other posts suggesting the very same thing, which have been ignored.

If these homeowners want to inflate the cost of their necessary repair by trying to make a 1935 home equal in any way to the million dollar plus homes surrounding them, I surely cannot stop them.

As to not knowing who you are, I do know that you are not trained in real estate or appraisal,or you would not encourage this expenditure.

I have done many, many homes and always included my real estate, appraisal experience in advising my clients. They have done very well, and are extremely happy that I would advise them against moving ahead with something which would cost them money they could not possibly recoup in a sale.

No one knows when they may have to sell. I have been trying to assist the client by advising them that what they propose is not likely to bring them any increase in the value of the home. I have seen several other posts advising the same thing, all ignored.

Actually, you ignored the poster, on her own post. You're right about one thing: I am not a real estate salesperson. And oh by the way, I have not encouraged any expenditure. I respect the poster's intelligence; she will spend what's advisable within her budget. And she will decide what that is, not you and not me.
And now some advice: offer helpful options, not condemnations. Be positive, not negative. Don't assume things, particularly if someone is telling you otherwise.

It appears that @just you style only has one thing to contribute to this forum. The last post 7 months ago pretty much said the same thing. That he/she is done with houzz because people give out free advice. So please stay done.

Hi Fred! ;-)

Oh yeah... I was on that thread. This is the "I can't afford to work for nothing" person.

Hi sstarr and maxdc
Here is another post this person was involved in so don't take it personal.

Just Your Style
Well,this is interesting.

This person needs to redesign a kitchen.

From what I'm reading, there is probably at least 1K in design advice, and most of it seems useable.

And, one of the "designers" suggests not hiring a designer at all.

By now, this "client" doesn't need one! Several have been offered for nothing.


I will be signing off t his site -I can't afford to work for nothing.


The last suggestion, fyi, looks just like a garage!


Just Your Style by Georgia

People being concerned whether the choices you make will be wise ones, can sound blunt if you have dreams and goals that still need some adjustments, right? Good intentions don't always have a postitive effect. And truth is not a fixed thing, to each his/her own. And when asking for help on a forum, you will attrack pros and cons.

"Please be careful" and "Don't be a fool" comes from the same source, no?

Moving on:
Met with a few contractors and discussed options. Will get prices and then decide how to proceed.

Sstar's idea(s) appear totally possible in the space, as does a more modest option of creating a slightly larger shower enclosure in frameless glass (2 sides at right angles) and just upgrading the toilet/vanity in same positions.

The closet issue was discussed and I agreed with the contractor that while it would be possible to gain closet space by reallocating closets in all 3 bedrooms it would mean touching walls, floors, paint in every room upstairs and that will drive costs too high.

Amy Cali's photos have got me inspired that this can be done in a small space and with good results.

Contractor agreed no double vanity.

Ballpark numbers are $10-$15k

Great!

Hi maxdc, I thought of you when I came across this article.
http://houzz.com/ideabooks/16361520
There are some very clever solutions here. Good luck.

None of this redo will need you to add on to the roof right? Because redoing a few rooms is one thing, getting roof repair or additions is a completely different ball game.

yes, try to take some time... slow down and consider even going to the library.

in addition to some cool ideabooks here - and at "this old house.com" there are plenty of books on small spaces out there.

Now we are trying to decide how it is going to feel to have a wall right as we enter the bedroom. I put a huge piece of cardboard up as a mock up. Trying to see if I will get used to the bathroom protruding into the bedroom more. Change is tricky...

Yep, that is a good way to go about it.

I was worried about the same thing when we did our reno's and now it's hard to even imagine what it used to be like.

just my 2 cts: when you do any reno that involves plumbing would you not need a permit? Will the new layouts that are suggested meet the code? Moving walls might move loadpoints and/or bearing walls.Consider moving existing plumbing stacks, electrical, etc.
I definitely would spend some $ for an architect to see what he says before starting any reno, then confirm it with the local building department

@simsala - doing the work with a GC who will pull all permits. So far nothing that we are planning violates any codes, in fact, the changes will bring some aspects into compliance finally! Basically we are undoing a renovation from 1980's and doing it over slightly differently, hopefully better!

Fred has some very good ideas. Like you our master bathroom is quite small. Ours is 4 x 10.5. I like Fred's design where you walk-in, between the toilet and sink and have the shower at the rear. This gives you the advantage of making the shower be the focal point when one walks in. If you spend just a bit more you can really make it POP and the bathroom will have fantastic IMPACT. And won't get in the way down the road when you will eventually sell.

I can only hope that the floor joists make re-plumbing things do-able for you. This may not be the case. If you go this route, the tricky part will be moving the toilet, as you'll need a 3" PVC connecting to wherever it needs to go.

Another way to go is to take a European concept where the entire bathroom floor can get wet and have something more like a central drain.

You may wish to consider natural stone for that shower. I assure you that it VERY do-able to get this stuff for a reasonable price. Travertine Group Imports out of Tampa has excellent prices and if you can wait, you might even get your shipment piggy-backed with a much larger one and pay little or nothing in freight. The sales manager Sean has taken very good care of us and we have ordered a lot of product from him.

If you don't wish to ever deal with sealing stone, then check out "the tile shop", if they have one near you - they have good prices and a fantastic selection. They actually have some of the best "fake stone" that we have ever seen - pretty dramatic stuff, I'll admit.

Just please PLAN, PLAN and PLAN. And then be prepared for what might happen when you tear up that floor - adjustments might need to be made.

Honestly, it would be well worth it to tear up the floor and see exactly what you are dealing with, and then plan accordingly. And do that before committing or contracting with anyone. You can get an AMAZING STUNNING bathroom for $7-10K. We've done this twice now, with lots of gorgeous natural stone.

Good luck to you!

This is Jeff again. Please note that there are pretty stringent code restrictions on creating holes through joists - they must be in the center third of the joist, also within a certain distance of the side support, not in the middle. The hole also can't normally exceed a certain amount of overall height against the overall height of that joist. Unless you have 12" high floor joists, code may restrict you from boring 3.5" holes through the existing joists where you would like to. But ... if those joists are sistered or even double-sistered - then this can change the dynamic and it might then pass. Only an engineer or architect can calculate the applicable load - and then you would still want the inspector to review the plans to see if he would have an issue with it. Usually, as long as an engineer or architect signs off on it, they are also ok with it.

What you MIGHT find, depending how they run is that what you would like to do, might not be viable for a current design. For the bathroom that we just added on our main floor, this was the case, and we found an entirely different route to drop the 3" sanitary waste pipe from the new bathroom to the basement - to then tie into the sewer main. You might need to consider doing something similar - and creating a new vertical waste pipe that then gets soffited in on the floor beneath.

Again ... if it were me, and I also had one other shower to use in the meantime, I'd start with gutting the existing space and then adjust your plans accordingly. You'll then have a complete picture of what you are dealing with, strategies for how to plumb it accordingly, and how to tie it into the vent pipes (essential).

I've included a few pics of our small master bathroom. And one shot of our new bathroom, from when it was still a work in progress - the final shots aren't in this PC. I hope that you like them. The master is 8x8 travertines on the walls and 12x12 honed/filled on the floor. The new bathroom is 6x24 polished travertines in a random pattern on the walls. You can actually get tiles like these for $3 - 3.5 per square foot. Both showers have linear drains so that we can use large format tile inside the shower (it is a single pitch - any size can be used).

Good luck!!!

If you use the closet to expand the shower won't the entrance to the shower remain the same? You'll be stuck with a longer, dark, narrow shower?

Hi everyone! I stumbled upon this discussion 10 months after the last comment. Very interesting stuff going on, I am so impressed with all the inputs. Now, what happened to that bathroom reno? I am so very curious to find out and see some photos if possible.
Thank you!

I would turn the toilet and put it on the same wall as the vanity, or I would replace that weird shallow depth portion of the counter with a floor to ceiling cabinet for towel storage and such. That vanity top will be much less functional in real life than it looks on paper.

Hi there - we have completed the renovation but as soon as it was done we were posted overseas so now our tenants are enjoying the two new bathrooms! I used them for about 2 weeks before we left and the improvement is amazing. I don't have any good photos at the moment but what we did was to build out into the master bedroom and we added a pocket door on the bedroom side of the new bathroom. Now, you enter the bathroom through the pocket door and there is a frameless glass shower enclosure on the right (we gutted the old shower and made a 90degree glass enclosure). The new pedestal sink and new toilet are in the same location as they were previously but with updated fixtures everything seems larger and brighter. We installed a chrome recessed medicine cabinet with a light fixture above. The walls are painted a pale gray, the floors are carrara basketweave (gray with gray dots so monochromatic) with the same tile continuing into the shower floor. The fixtures are Kohler Memoirs. We also managed to build in a shallow cabinet opposite the shower enclosure with a full length mirrored door. It is not recognizable as the same bathroom anymore.

We played around with all of the ideas generated in this thread and for a series of reasons (mostly economic) keeping everything in the same location was our best bet. The new finishes really make a huge difference.

In the adjacent bathroom we again left everything in the same position but we moved the shower plumbing off of the exterior wall and reversed the tub. To do so, we built a partition wall between the vanity and the tub to contain the shower plumbing. We added wainscoting and a recessed medicine cabinet with a white wood frame.

Unfortunately our contractor was a bit of cheapskate (his estimate was way under everyone else, we should have known better) and so he tried to cut a lot of corners. Many of his shortcuts I was able to stop and have done right but others slipped by and will plague me. For example, he did not gut the plaster and lathe all the way up the wall, only what was behind the old tile wainscot so he then drywalled over the old plaster so I lost 1" of space which is really significant in such a small bathroom. I could have gained 1" if he had gutted everything to the studs. He also installed the fan on day one and then used that as an excuse to not demo the old plaster ceiling so that when he got to tile and the ceiling was not level we had to get creative. Not the end of the world but I learned that in future I will probably hire demo guys to do all the demo and then hire guys to do the rest. I am capable enough to be my own GC so will not bother with a "contractor" next time - will just hire out the trades as I need them. It will take longer but I think I will get more of what I want in the end.

Thanks again for all of your input into this project!

Forgot to say that budget wise, we spent $25K combined for the two bathrooms. That includes:
2 toilets
1 tub
1 pedestal sink
1 vanity with sink/counter top
white subway tile in both showers
natural stone basketweave floor in master bath
1" hex tile (Home Depot) black/white pattern in kids' bath
3 light fixtures
1 recessed can
2x shower faucets, valves (Kohler, American Standard)
tub filler/diverter/valves
hand shower/diverter/valves
2x sink faucets (Kohler, American Standard)
wainscot, baseboards, new door trim
2 Runtal radiators (labor and materials)
paint
demo
2 recessed medicine cabinets
glass shower enclosure (34x34 approx) with one fixed side, one door
all new plumbing under the floor, in the walls
all new electric in both bathrooms
2 panasonic exhaust fans
Gatco towel bars, towel rings, paper holders (2 sets)
5 hours of professional design advice from a local professional

The expenses were pretty much 50% labor, 50% materials.
Natural stone was a splurge but we got it from an online vendor so was less than local shops ($16/sf plus shipping = $18 sf)
And we splurged on Kohler Memoirs faucets in the master and the Americast tub in the kids bathroom was more than the basic tub at HD.

We shopped around a lot and tried to do things as cheaply as possibly but got stymied numerous times: cheapest subway tile at HD did not have the bullnose pieces we needed so had to go with a more expensive subway at Lowes (American Olean but special order). We needed a lot of bullnose pieces so that drove the tile expense way up. The $390 (on sale, with a coupon) vanity we bought at Lowes didn't fit at the last minute so had to return and quickly repurchase another one that was $600. I insisted on BM paint and painter pointed out I would have spent half as much with SW.

I did a lot of the leg work, bought most of the fixtures on faucets.com and amazon (we have prime).

We are happy with the result and the expenditure. Other GCs came to quote were estimating $40K for the job so we feel we got a good deal. Our area is very expensive for renovations.

Thank you so much for your comments. Nice to hear that all worked out in the end, more or less, and that you are pleased with what you achieved.
I am amazed at the level of input I read here in the discussion, Houzz has just started for me.....
I wish you and your family an enjoyable time at your posting,
Thanks again!