Really looking for help with the flow. Don't want to recreate the traffic jams of the existing kitchen.

I don't see a difference in window placement, and don't know what is existing. Although it doesn't seem moving that would be the only item that threw off the budget, unless you are adding a large beam for a sliding hinged window. Does removing the little wing wall between Dining require a new beam too? Other than those I don't see a lot of walls moving. Are you sure the overage isn't from the Covid-era, appliances/cabinets chosen, or moving plumbing/electrical that pushed the budget?

Would not trying to fit 10lbs of potatoes in a 5lb sack help your layout (do not know the how/whys of conception of this project)?

- Are upper cabinets shown along the window wall?

- Do you really need a separate rangetop and wall oven?

- Do you want cooking so close to seating and an island hood blocking view, or an expensive, sometimes problematic downdraft hood (island placement)?

- Ditto on placement of cooking in front of a window?

- Be aware of what appliances are placed in front of a sliding door frame. Limiited by in-wall clearance (usually only shallow electrical boxes) and possibly hanging a rangehood with specified mounting points.

- Do you have a need for a separate pantry cabinet combined with pantry/broom storage area? Or is counter/cabinet space more important?

- Do you need a laundry sink with no counter tucked into a closet corner? Don't worry about how close the W/D is to the bedroom hallway, you have a difference of like 2 physical strides anywhere along that wall. Note that W/D requires a minimum 32" clear depth to inside of a door and without door frame/stop interfering with sliding it in/out.

- Do you need another linen closet with custom door size across from an existing hall closet?

Thank you for the response!

Answering your questions:

1. No uppers on the wall window, but architect wants open shelves.

2. I have an existing wall oven (1 year old) and range top and they are moving into the kitchen.

3. Cooking will be induction cooktop. Either it goes in the island (if we choose the long island option) with a downdraft, against the wall with a cabinet hood, or against the window with a ceiling hood. I hate island hoods except in industrial lofts (this house is not an industrial loft.)

4. Cooking in front of the window allows the fridge to be on the short wall and out of the walkway. Understand the downsides of cooking in front of a window, but you do get a better work triangle.

5. There are no appliances in front of a sliding door frame.

6. I was planning on storing lots of baking supplies in the closet on narrow shelves if it stays a pantry, as well as lesser used appliances. My husband loves to bake and we grind our own grain and oats, so we have lots of stuff.

7. W/D does not need 32" clear per installation guide. W/D says it needs 2" clear on either side and the unit is 23.5" wide. The sink next to it is really for paint brushes and not laundry (it's a nice to have). We do not have a garage or basement and I don't want paint in my new kitchen sink (currently we use our kitchen sink for such stuff and I don't like it). In the current configuration I need to walk through the kitchen to do laundry and I'm constantly colliding with my husband (the cook) or scared that splatters will get on clean clothes, so that is why I want the laundry close to the bedrooms, which is also where it comes from and where it gets folded.

8. The second linen closet is in anticipation of demoing the existing linen and redoing my bathrooms. That will occur in the future. Don't need it now and have asked the architect to remove it.

Regarding budget, the total for the kitchen, entry, front room, and two bathrooms was more than I wanted to spend. I pulled out the bathrooms for now, but was thinking if minor edits could occur in the kitchen to also reduce costs, BUT I want a good flow. Current kitchen is all hallways and it drives me and my husband crazy.

Minor edits:

- Existing window is about 10' long with 15" of wall on either side. Architect wants to move it down so there is 0" on one side to allow 24" depth cabinets to hit the other side. Moving the window 15" means replacing exterior siding, which has to be custom milled. Is there a layout where I don't need to do this?

- The approximately 14" wing wall on the south side of the opening between the kitchen and dining contains 6 light switches. Architect wants to remove the wall to allow the island to be bigger. This means relocating 6 light switches, increasing electrical costs--there is no attic--this is a mid-century modern house. There is a crawl space. Is the extra electrical/reroofing worth it?

- Putting the W/D someplace other than the existing coat closet means some minor reframing of an existing bedroom closet. Not a big deal.

Long post to say that the layout of the key appliances--sink, fridge, cooktop--is driving me crazy. I'm obsessed and really need some input. I think once those elements settle, other stuff will fall in line.

Adding a picture of the space from when I tried blocking out the island. Now have bamboo outside the window, so much improved "view."

Great information provided!

Here's the gist of my initial comments. The basics of the flow and concept of the kitchen layout is done well. I like Option 1 for its appliance and zone layout (however I am not a KD!). But when I look at the plan from "1000 feet," I see lots of minutiae detailing and negative effects from your wish list. If this were a small studio apartment or a tiny house, this train of thought coincides appropriately. But you have a simple, clean, elemental MCM California house. Rather than keeping the same "level of feel" consistent, IMO the Office/Kitchen remodel is very "noisy."

For instance in Option 1:

- Stand at the Mudroom and look towards Dining. You see the linen bumpout, whatever #3 is, an opening (barn door?), 2 doors for laundry (wide cabinet doors), a counter inset (coffee), then 2 more doors (slim cabinet doors). Add to that the island, and are those 3 skylights above? Continue to the Dining/Living, and it's very simple and elemental there.

- The forced items from the wish list seem over-detailed to make them work. Is having an 18" sink, that will splash up onto the sides of the millwork cabinets and has no counter space to set anything, worth the detailing? Is using the stud spaces in the Pantry (a great idea for tiny houses) worth the cost and detailing of a finished backside of the wall material and custom cut shelving? Is the W/D, which has its own smells, humidity, and lintiness, worth it to be near baking supplies or compete with coffee smells? The linen needing a custom millwork door size?

So how to fix these examples? Can laundry be moved to the future bath remodel? Can paint brushes be washed outside or later in another laundry area? Can the entire wall be a simple, uniform cabinet face with storage (both appliance and pantry) and hidden coffee shelf? Then can this tradeoff of these fixes pay dividends by not needing shelving blocking the windows? It doesn't always work, but KISS might provide relief in other ways.

Other thoughts:

- Tough call on moving the window. I am trying to zoom the photo if the operable side can be eliminated up to the center picture window (if mulled together) instead of moving the whole unit. But it seems the payoff of moving the exact same window over 15" isn't worth it.

- Wing wall: surprised there is not a roof post there in addition to the 6 switches.

- Washer depth 32" is front to back - common 26" deep + 4" duct

- Option 2 has a range hood on the Office pocket door (mounting + vibration)

- There are ways to do things that might ease a bit of the costs, for instance moving/reducing the window: with the siding, you can bring in another color/material/pattern and possibly continue the design language similar to this concept:

Of the three, Option 2 is the most functional layout for the Kitchen. It does have a few issues, but it has the fewest. Option 1 is a non-starter.

Most architects, GCs, & Builders are not very good at Kitchen design (especially production builders!) Architects excel at structure, architectural interest, overall home flow, etc., but they generally fail at designing Kitchens. When it comes to Kitchens, their focus is usually on "looks" or gadget-appeal, not function (and they don't really understand Kitchen function/design anyway). The best know their limitations and have a true Kitchen Designer on staff (or at least available).

Regarding the Laundry - is there no place to put it where the bedrooms are? The vast majority of laundry comes from and goes back to the bedrooms, so the most logical location is near the bedrooms -- not where you have to traipse up/down stairs and/or walk to/from one end of the house to the other with baskets full of laundry.

(Even better is near the Master Bedroom's closet since most likely the owners will be in the home longer than the children! If you plan to "age in place", it's the best location b/c by then the vast majority of the laundry will be coming from & returning to the MBR closet.)

I think I see the bedrooms behind the Kitchen...if that's the case, then it may be an OK location. Are all the bedrooms there? (A full-floor sketch is missing, so I cannot tell.) In Option 2, I would consider turning the Laundry Closet around so it faces the Living Room. Install a nice door and it won't be an aesthetical issue (unless you like to keep the doors open all the time).

Edited to add: I missed that you already know about laundry! It would be nice if you could figure out a way to turn it so it opens into the bedroom hallway instead so you don't have to worry about splattering food on clean clothes or lug baskets around. What's that square with a "3" in it? Could it be merged with the Linen Closet to make a Laundry Closet? Is the desk in the Office a built-in? Could it be moved or reduced in size to merge with the Laundry Room -- you might have room for both a washer/dryer and a sink in that space. Something to think about.

.

One of the issues I see is the aisle widths. The aisles appear a bit narrow. From the looks of the layouts, the aisles are being measured to/from the cabinets. If that's true, then they are at least 3" narrower than the labels.

Aisle widths are determined by measuring to/from the items sticking out into the aisle the farthest -- usually counter edges, appliance doors/handles, and, in the case of a tall pantry or utility cabinet, knobs/pulls.

• Aisles are not measured cabinet-to-cabinet. Cabinet depths (usually 24" for base cabs) only include the boxes, not the doors/drawer fronts, knobs/pulls, or counter overhangs.
• Counter overhangs are usually 1.5" past cabinet boxes.
• Doors on a tall pantry or utility cabinet extend approx. 1" beyond the cabinet boxes (not counting knobs/pulls)
• For appliance doors & handles, check the specs of your chosen appliance. Don't forget to include clearance behind the appliance, if needed – in particular, refrigerators and freezers.

The width of a work aisle should be at least:

• 42" for a one-person work aisle
• Note: If a DW is on the aisle, then I recommend the aisle be at least 45" wide to allow someone to pass between an open DW door and the item across from the DW
• 48" for more than one person working on the aisle

Will there be seating at the island? (Option 1 has seating but the others do not. There's really not enough room for seating at the island as the aisle behind the seats should be 54" or so b/c of all that's going on there as well as it being a very busy traffic path.)

With a baker in the family, a larger workspace is a must -- baking usually takes up a bit of room! A clear island would be perfect for that. You could store baking supplies in drawers in the island and even if you prefer the other storage you described, items wouldn't be too far away.

These threads may help (taken from the "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!" thread):

• Ice.Water.Stone.Fire, a humorous discussion of Kitchen design: https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2699918/looking-for-layout-help-memorize-this-first
• Work Zones, What Are They?: https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500762/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they
• Aisles Widths, Seating Overhangs, etc.: https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500771/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc
• Storage Planning: https://www.gardenweb.com/discussions/5500787/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

If you'd like other layout ideas, I suggest posting a fully-measured layout of the space and a sketch of the entire floor the Kitchen is on.

Also from the Read Me thread:

By "fully-measured", we mean a layout with the widths of each wall/window/door/doorway and the distances between each wall/window/door/doorway labeled. See a sample below. If something cannot be moved or changed, label it precisely on your layout (see post in sample) and tell us why it cannot be moved/changed -- we may have some ideas for you.

The sketch of the entire floor lets us see how the Kitchen relates to the rest of the home. It doesn't have to be to-scale, but it should accurately show how the rooms relate to each other and should include all interior & exterior doors. In addition, it will help us see how traffic flows in, around, and through the Kitchen. Label the front entry and family entry. The family entry is usually a garage or side entry, but it might not be. It's helpful to know which door you use to bring in groceries.

Regardless of how you draw it up (by hand, computer, etc.), please be sure all measurements are labeled. (Note: Computer generated layouts often lack key measurements and, sometimes, measure to/from things like the middle of a wall or the middle of a window. Neither are useful. Measure each item and the distances between each item.)

Other questions...

• Tell us about you and your family and how you plan to use your Kitchen. All-adults? Empty Nesters? Children (now or in the future)?
• What appliances (& their sizes) do you plan to have?
• Where are you flexible? Can walls/windows/doors/doorways change (move, change size, add, delete)?
• Do you have a basement under the Kitchen or are you on a slab?

@Buehl I rese...mble those remarks!

Since the main Office/Bedroom thoroughfare is through this kitchen aisle, OP being a baker I would think Option 1 with no crossover into the aisle is slightly weighted in terms of livability. Even though the rangetop is in the island and prep space is greatly reduced.

How does something like this look?

Island is shifted to make 48" aisles. It may need to be adjusted a bit b/w the sink & island so you can have a 48" aisle behind the island since it will be a busy path. The aisle b/w the sink and island could be shortened a bit to 42" since the angle would make the aisle b/w the island & DW wider than b/w the sink & island.

I took the Pantry from Option 1 and put in shelves no more than 12" deep -- that's the "sweet spot" for Pantry shelf depth -- all but the most oversized small appliances will fit on 12"D shelves (including a KA stand mixer, breadmaker, waffle iron, toaster, blender, food processor, etc.). That depth is deep enough for cereal boxes and cans 2 or 3 deep but not so deep that things get lost in the depths. I'm not sure of the width of the pantry, so I don't know if 12"D shelves will fit along the right wall and still allow you to have at least 30" or so of walkway.

Thank you all! I will respond to questions in the morning. Really appreciate your questions to me and advice!

@3onthetree

I won't have time for adding more dimensions to drawings until a few days from now, but I can quickly answer your questions/address assumptions:

- "Stand at the Mudroom and look towards Dining."

There is no mudroom. I'm assuming you are referring to my current kitchen, which will be a sitting room/office. The impetus for this remodel is that the house has terrible flow! The door closest to the street and near the carport is the existing kitchen door. This means everyone (me, visitors, etc.) enter into the kitchen. The original house designer put the "front" door in the back, which doesn't work for many reasons. So, the current kitchen will get a spiffed up exterior entry landing, and be converted into an entry area and sitting room/office. The dining room turns into the kitchen. The dining room table moves into the living room and the living room furniture moves a bit. Flow issues mainly solved.

- "You see the linen bumpout, whatever #3 is, an opening (barn door?), 2 doors for laundry (wide cabinet doors), a counter inset (coffee), then 2 more doors (slim cabinet doors). Add to that the island, and are those 3 skylights above?"

The "linen bumpout" would be flush with my desk and the coat closet, so it should read as a smooth wall. The architect thinks there is a post somewhere near #3--I don't think there is, but there is a bump out, although it sounds hollow. There are 4 planned skylights--two in the entry/office/sitting room and two in the kitchen. They correspond with the new "walkway" through the house.

The architect has not accommodated my requests to make a series of doors all the same width along the laundry/pantry/coffee alcove wall. But I measured it out and it can be done. The result would look something like this image of cabinets below:

The door is a pocket door, not a barn door. Need to be able to keep the cats out of the "office" when I work.

"Continue to the Dining/Living, and it's very simple and elemental there.

- The forced items from the wish list seem over-detailed to make them work. Is having an 18" sink, that will splash up onto the sides of the millwork cabinets and has no counter space to set anything, worth the detailing?"

No. Agree that it's not worth it.

"Is using the stud spaces in the Pantry (a great idea for tiny houses) worth the cost and detailing of a finished backside of the wall material and custom cut shelving?"

Yes, because the closet is only about 30" wide, so to get side shelves, you need to go into the studs. My husband likely will make those shelves.

"Is the W/D, which has its own smells, humidity, and lintiness, worth it to be near baking supplies or compete with coffee smells?"

There is no good place for the laundry. Currently, the laundry is in the kitchen. I played with moving the machines everywhere you can image--all locations are compromises. Laundry generally occurs on Wednesdays and Saturdays, so it's not an all the time thing. I do between 2 and 4 loads per week (with WFH, more like 4, but when I go back to the office, it will be 2 with my work clothes going to the dry cleaner).

"The linen needing a custom millwork door size?"

All the cabinets will be custom. I want to put my money into the carpentry because I think the return will be great.

"So how to fix these examples? Can laundry be moved to the future bath remodel?"

The bathrooms are tight. Laundry cannot go in the bathrooms.

"Can paint brushes be washed outside or later in another laundry area?"

I could add a sink outside. Agree with this suggestion.

"Can the entire wall be a simple, uniform cabinet face with storage (both appliance and pantry) and hidden coffee shelf?"

Yes! That is what is planned!

"Then can this tradeoff of these fixes pay dividends by not needing shelving blocking the windows? It doesn't always work, but KISS might provide relief in other ways."

I'm not a huge fan of the shelf in front of the window and don't plan to store anything I need to move on a regular basis on it (I live in earthquake country). I did think it would be nice for my small potted succulents; I can use museum wax to make sure they don't fall off and pots add color to what is otherwise planned to be a wood and white kitchen.

"Other thoughts:

- Tough call on moving the window. I am trying to zoom the photo if the operable side can be eliminated up to the center picture window (if mulled together) instead of moving the whole unit."

I'm getting new windows :). So mulling can be as needed to match cabinetry lines, sink placement, etc.

"But it seems the payoff of moving the exact same window over 15" isn't worth it."

Agree.

"- Wing wall: surprised there is not a roof post there in addition to the 6 switches."

There is a post, but at the far end of the wing wall.

"- Washer depth 32" is front to back - common 26" deep + 4" duct"

The dryer is ductless and the washing pipes can go in the stud wall. I need 29.5" of depth at a minimum.

"- Option 2 has a range hood on the Office pocket door (mounting + vibration)"

True. Hadn't thought about this.

- There are ways to do things that might ease a bit of the costs, for instance moving/reducing the window: with the siding, you can bring in another color/material/pattern and possibly continue the design language similar to this concept:

Ok, here's a markup to better explain.

Mudroom is just a generic term for the daily occupant entrance, the informal door where you usually enter or can access outside for daily tasks. Throw your shoes and have a drop zone. As opposed to the Main entry for guests and visitors, which looks like is over by the Dining Room.

"The original house designer put the "front" door in the back"

This is common, especially when there are views to hills or a lake. The Living areas are placed with the views, which means guests meander outside past the backhouse to get to the front door.

- ORANGE/RED/PINK: This is a person's viewpoint, ORANGE from the "Mudroom" and PINK sitting at the Dining table. The RED outlines are the "noise" I was referring to. It's not the fact that a portion of a specific wall is flat (e.g. the backside of the linen closet); it is the undulation of the wall and all the sharp corners breaking up the sight line that the eye sees in the shadows on the walls, floors, and ceilings. It can be purposeful and beneficial, but here the rhythmic pattern is too messy compared to the house design style.

- LIME: Skylights as proposed, but I do not see any relationship of placement to the spaces. The sunlight should be utilized to draw your eye towards something, or indicate you have arrived at a spot.

- GREEN: If a post is in that wingwall, then leave the wingwall. If you are getting new windows, why move the existing kitchen window header? Just make it smaller.

- BLUE: Barn door to hall? Maybe that should be a hidden cabinet door in the kitchen. Plant shelf in front of window? Then where is the bulk of your storage (dishware etc) - very few base cabinets. Pantry wall material is what I am referring to. Same as rest of Living Room?

- Washer/Dryer: See what I did there? 26"+4"=30"deep, round up to 32" for baseboard, door stop, whatever. It is always best to allow enough space flexibility for appliances that vary in selection. If you are using ventless or a combo, make sure that is what you want. If you do laundry in one day, a ventless will be running the entire day = humidity in that specific area. Again, a studio ADU or tiny house deal with it, in a baker's kitchen with more house available, better to move the laundry area.

- "make a series of doors all the same width along the laundry/pantry/coffee alcove wall" - Exactly what I would recommend, your inspo picture is perfectly illustrative!

- "I want to put my money into the carpentry because I think the return will be great" Your ROI is in location, flow, usability, flexibility, location, views, standard design instead of custom for non-standard lifestyles, location, and finally location. As an analogy to the cabinetry with a nod to your budget concerns, you have two beautiful watches where both work precisely. One has 1000 unique gears hidden from view, the other has 100 that share with other watches and costs less because of it. Which do you buy if you still have to buy shoes, a belt, and a purse?

P.S. your architect should be looking in the crawlspace, on the roof, and have some tools available to understand the structure. It affects the design too much to assume.

I'll write more later, but the "mud room" entrance is being turned into our main entrance because it is closest to the sidewalk. No one uses the door by the dining room table (my husband and I have lived here for 10 years--seriously no one finds that door). With the remodel, it will serve as a kitchen door to access our compost bin.

The skylights will lead you from the entrance to the back of the house, where our nicest room (family room) is and our only "view," which is a backyard sitting area, garden, and bamboo privacy wall. The skylights also will add back some of the light I lost when my neighbors to the south built a second story addition.

The house has no side views--it is on a small, 3,300 square foot urban lot surrounded by other homes. The house on the south side of my house is 5' away in some places, which one reason an entry in the back doesn't work and we are changing it. Most other houses on the street were built in the 40s (small craftsman homes) with doors that face the street. My house is also small (1480 square feet--2 beds/2 baths, all one floor). But fine for empty nesters like me and my husband. We also have no nearby family, so mainly this is a house for 2 adults. For resale, this house could accommodate two adults and one child, but that is about it.

That pesky barn door is not supposed to be there. I told the architect it is not needed and doesn't work for the house.

I plan to store dishes in the drawers in the island. I have one set of dishes with setting for 12.

The living room wall already is wood--mahogany paneling to be exact. We have some extra rescued from an Eichler renovation in Sunnyvale that we plan to use in our remodel to blend the new with the old.

The post for the wing wall is closer to the corner. I could cut off 7" of that wall and be OK.

The "coffee alcove" would be behind a cabinet so that red line break would not be there.

FYI...In my mockup, I eliminated the pocket door and converted it to a standard door that can be opened (and left open) against the "top" wall. The open door will not be in the way if left open most of the time b/c it will open against a wall. (It will also keep the cats out when closed!)

Pocket doors do limit you with regards to what you can do with a wall so, while they can be useful in spaces that are tiny and don't have room for a door swing or if an open standard door will be in the way, they can also cause issues -- as you're finding out.

This scheme I have 3 skylights, all same tall cabinets in Entry and Kitchen, W/D moved, smaller window in same structure, wing wall stays so smaller island, and yes a 30" induction range instead of a rangetop+wall oven.

As I said I think it is well laid out and some great elements. The key goals in my mind is cleaning up the long pathway, ceiling, and simplifying the kitchen design along with bringing more traditional storage. If you are willing to spend on millwork or match a siding profile, then buying a new double oven induction range for $5000 helps the goal in many ways.

Architects have to be true to the holistic picture, not zeroing in on one specific room and the nitty gritty of that - if so the main focus will be overshadowed. It is a process (with input from Kitchen, Interior, and Structural Designers) with incremental steps, where sometimes that requires sacrifices in certain designs. Residents in Frank Lloyd Wright, MCM, bauhaus and minimalist designs happily accept tradeoffs for a design experience they seek. In fact, I do not like the ref where I show it (works for prep island, but competes with the rhythmic wall face), but that is a tradeoff because more open counter space elsewhere lends better to the overall house design.

@3onthetree I looked at the w/d in that location, but I don't want to move the closet doors in the bedroom because they are centered under a clerestory window--moving the doors breaks the logic of the placement of the clerestory. I also don't like the fridge in the location you show for the obvious reasons (walkways through essential kitchen items) and that is is what sent me to Houzz with questions. The fridge will be cabinet depth and paneled to match the cabinets.

@Buehl thank you! It appears you don’t think its an issue to have the fridge across the main walkway in the house from the sink/cooktop. I’m concerned about that.

Unfortunately, the walkway cannot be 48” if the laundry goes where you put it due to the depth of the laundry and width of the house. Sigh—this process makes me want to sell this house and start over. Always hated the house’s lack of flow and space. But I live in the Bay Area where 1.5 million gets you a starter home.

Wondering why 1 is a non-starter.

Love zoning (that is part of my day job).