I agree, it looks rather like it could possibly be a calycanthus, either C. floridus or the western C. occidentalis. Does it have a scent to the leaves or the flower? does it set any kind of fruits or berries?

Ditto. Looks like calycanthus to me as well.

:)
Dee

And here I was just bemoaning the other week (on the fragrance thread) how I wanted one. Somehow, somewhere, I'm fitting one in.

Thank you! I knew someone on the Antique Roses forum would know! It is definitely Carolina Allspice, no doubt a cultivar which was in commerce a long time ago. I am laughing about the info on the internet, which says that it gets 5-8 feet tall. Mine, which is deep in a part of our lot which is wild, is at least 25 feet tall, and 12-15 feet wide (climbing up a tree). Why, oh why, does everything in my garden get 5/6 times larger than in other places?

Now I have a dilemma. It is in the part of our yard which is scheduled to be completely dug up (several much bigger and equally old woody shrubs full of dead wood removed, as part of our fire safe re-landscaping) and cleared. Then my DH is going to build a deer proof steel fence around that area (it is about 500 sq ft), and after I see what the new sun/shade patterns are, I hope to plant roses and other things there. This plant was in the area which is to be cleared, but now I am wondering if we cut it down to about 3 feet tall, if it could be saved. My DH likes it, as he remembers it from his childhood 65 years ago, when the house belonged to his grandparents.

To answer your question, slummgulion, the leaves (when crushed) smell like celery leaves, and the new flowers smell like some sort of unidentifiable sweet berry.

Most of the info I have found says it needs to be watered. Ha! It only rains here 4 months of the year, usually, and in the hot dry summer it does not rain at all for 5-6 months. This plant never gets water other than some rain in the winter. It never gets "fed", but of course as it is in an area dense with old shrubs & trees, it is getting natural food from all of the leaf litter, etc). It looks healthy and thriving, and planning on taking over the world. If I chop it back, it will be on its same no doubt huge root structure. I am guessing I will not have to irrigate it?

Any thoughts about how to manage it if I keep it (which I am realizing I will)? Even with the other way more enormous old shrubs removed, it will be in some high shade from a tall tree on one side, and a nearby house, and some other trees.

Thanks for your help, as usual.

Jackie

If the shrub is that old, it is far more likely to be the native species, Calycanthus occidentalus, western sweetshrub. It gets larger and requires much less water than the east coast species and is happy in quite a lot of shade.

Has it suckered at all, Jackie? Allspice spreads that way. Maybe you could whack back the mother plant and try to save it but also propagate some babies from suckers. You are the Queen of Heirloom Plant Propagation!

I think you could keep the plant smaller with regular pruning. It may still hit 20’ in 100 years, but after a century, you can hand off the job of managing the allspice to another generation. :-)

Carol

Thank you! I did look up the calycanthus occidentalus, and it looks exactly like it, so now I have a firm ID, and can proceed from there. I will look to see if it has any suckers, but right now it is sort of on the edge and a bit intermingled with what we call the "Barbarous Barberry" which as I am sure you know has vicious 2" long thorns which (when dry and as strong as steel) fall off and have 3 thorns set so that one of them is always pointing straight up, like the caltrop weapons they used to put on the ground to disable cavalry (my DH had to go to the doctor once to remove one from his foot - it went right through his shoe!). Our barberry is easily 10 ft high by 15 ft wide by 15 feet deep, although it looks like those innocent little ones they sometimes use in parking lots! It is definitely going away, and after it is gone I will be able to get closer to the base of the calycanthus to see what is going on. Thanks again everyone for your help - now I have another family heirloom plant to save.

Jackie

I have been looking for a Calycanthus for ages. Seems our local places never have it or else, I just haven't found it. Lucky you!

Jackie, good luck with your Barbarous Barberry removal. Maybe a backhoe is in order? You’ll surely breathe easier after that monster is gone! Those innocent ones in parking lots will likely grow to the size of your allspice if they are allowed to remain in place for a few decades. You can chuckle knowingly as you skirt past them in your car. Ha, ha! Please update us on your fireproofing garden project and the latest allspice news. I am sending CA wishes for a cooler, wetter summer this year!

Cyn, Bluestone mail order has Calyanthus ‘Venus’ in stock. I also see some online nurseries on your side of the country with the native one in stock.

Carol

Thanks, Carol. Yes, it will be good to get rid of the barberry. My DH prunes it because it is next to the driveway, and he needed to do that to keep it from attacking vehicles driving by. He would drive his pickup truck next to it, and get the long handled electric hedge clippers, wear gauntlets and heavy clothing, and drop the cuttings directly into the bed of his truck, so he could take them to the dump without handling them. He is really looking forward to not having to do that anymore!

I will be posting about our fire safe project on here as it goes along. Luckily the legal deadline in the law our town passed is April of 2022, so we have some time. The huge shrub removal will happen mid July, as that is when our local Audubon society says birds will be finished nesting in them.

Right now I am making a list of which of the 9 roses we have growing up our wood shingled house I want to try to transplant, and/or root, as all of them will have to be permanently removed from where they are currently growing, sigh.

Jackie

Today our usual gardener came, and he cut the Barberry away from the calycanthus occidentalis, which took him about an hour. Then he cut it down to about 8 ft tall, and he and my DH built a protective structure around it with sturdy wire cages, all of which is intended to protect it during the "giant shrub removal", which will remove the ginormous barberry and the huge abelia grandiflora next to it.

I don't think deer like the calycanthus - we have had a doe and her fawn living in our garden for several weeks, and the tunnel tunell under the barberry hey use to come and go makes them walk right past the calycanthus, and it looked untouched to me - no deer damage at all. This is good news, because it will be just outside of the fence of the new garden which is going in the place where the 2 huge shrubs are currently.

Jackie

What an interesting thread. I'm thinking about the intersection of your very old garden plant which predates the contemporary/current problems caused by climate change and long-standing poor forestry practices. I'm glad your heirloom calycanthus can stay....sort of a matriarch of your new garden.

My calycanthus "Hartlage Wine " (Bluestone at least 10 years ago) is at 15-20 feet tall in partial shade and covered with blooms. It's a undisciplined wild small tree- branches in all directions that want to grab your hair. It wanted more careful placement but it is too late for that.