I twice visited the area on day trips from two different visits to Philadelphia. The first time I saw three instances of terrible abuse of horses pulling wagon/carts (or whatever the right term is for a 4 wheeled vehicle used for transportation of humans) that I found shocking. I'm not sure what made me want to do it a second time, perhaps having forgotten what I saw the first time, but I saw it again twice on the second visit.

My impression, whether it's reasonable or not - these people seem to belong to a cult of religious extremists (is that an oxymoron?) that accepts and perhaps even spreads practices of abuse and disrespect of animals. A local who was a friend of the person we visited, from the Lancaster area, told us after the second time that what we saw was not out of character or unusual conduct.

They can spend 8 hours a day of praying for their twisted beliefs all they want and go replace fallen fences for neighbors after storms all they want, they seem to be evil people The world today and in the past has and has had plenty of people who consider themselves religious and yet use those beliefs to hurt others and do evil things. I can't support, patronize, or even want to understand heartless and hypocritical people like that in any way, shape or form. If you're passing through, stop before you get there or keep driving until you're in a community of normal people.

Shady Maple doesn't have great food. It's a smorgasboard w/ PA dutch food.

If you want fine dining or quality food, there are plenty of those places in and around Lancaster as well. But Shady Maple is quite famous (I think it was featured on the travel channel) and people travel for hours to go there. We go maybe once every three years or so, usually when people come to town who want to go. We have been once since the pandemic and they require you to wear gloves each time you go up to the buffet, which you then throw out and get a new pair. And masks, of course.

I am also surprised at the generalizations. Not every Amish person operates a puppy mill any more than every Muslim is a terrorist or every Jewish person is good with money.

I am a HUGE animal lover and I would be the first to report a puppy mill, but we have had numerous encounters with Amish and mennonite people who would be appalled at animal cruelty.

Thank you Mtn and Beagles!

I get out to Lancaster County often in the spring to go to the garden centers, especially Black Creek. I drive by lovely well kept farms and enjoy the sight of the farmers plowing the fields behind their horse teams. Love to see a buggy on the road. I pass an Amish school and the kids look happy and healthy.

As has been said, the puppy mills are horrendous. And has also been said, not all the Amish run them, in fact very few.

Theland is becoming more expensive and the men (mostly) have turned to other skills besides farming. They are expert wood framers, barn builders and woodworkers.

Avoid the tourist traps, enjoy the countryside. Don’t buy a puppy. It’s an interesting place to visit.

https://lancasteronline.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-a-disturbing-animal-cruelty-trend-in-lancaster-county/article_4670b55e-60c9-11e6-a52f-db51441e6c36.html

If a newspaper in the area feels free to generalize, then I'm not feeling too much sympathy for the generalizations here either. The consensus is that the Amish view animals as a tool to be used and abused. While I am sure there are "very nice people" amoung them, it seems to be widely accepted that they will literally work animals to death. And not care. That bothers me.

I can't access the article but I always chuckle at the phrase "the gentle sect". They are not. The men rule, the women are subservient, and the children are severely disciplined. I remember buying bees from one family. I tried to talk to a little girl about four. I said I'll bet you're the baby and she said ...oh no, and proceed to name four younger than her. I think there were ten with the oldest about 12. There were no pets of any kind, no dogs, cats, and an empty bunny cage. I know because I asked her. The 12-year-old boy was dressed as a man with a man's hat on and men's clothing. He wrote out the receipt and carried the bees to our car. Every child has a chore from the age they can perform it.

We have family in the Lancaster area, we visit every couple of years. Usually we combine our visit with a trip to one of the nearby cities such as Washington DC, NYC or Philadelphia.

Most often we visit restaurants that family recommend or do something local, like a firehouse fundraiser dinner. However, we have enjoyed the Sturgis pretzel factory in Lititz and usually visit the Central Market. We also like Roots Country Market and the touristy Kitchen Kettle Village. Restaurants that we have enjoyed include Lancaster Brewery, Log Cabin and Good and Plenty.

If you find anything you really like on your trip please share, we will likely be making another visit there next year.

Forgot to mention we have visited two Amish farms owned by neighbors of our relatives. Neither farm had a puppy mill and the animals all looked to be well cared for. In both cases the neighbor invited us to visit and neither were selling anything. It was interesting.

Most of us prefer factory farms to abuse animals on our behalf, and Asian factories to abuse workers. The pursuit of cheap goods has consequences.

OMG, Sturgis! When i was a kid we did the tour and all made pretzels, LOL.

Zalco, Exactly. I thought i'd let this die down a bit, but ...

To be fair, I certainly "use animals as a tool." I eat all sorts of animal products that i buy from grocers, and I do not know specifically how they are treated, but I expect not nicely. I wear leather. I keep a dog in captivity for my amusement.

Few of us are genuinely against mistreatment of animals - we actively support it with our spending. We are against mistreatment of certain animals.

Bookwoman, I'm in NEPA but we took our kids to Dutch Wonderland when they were young. I don't remember how we knew about it, but the kids loved it.

A close friend bought a puppy from an Amish breeder a few years ago. I asked her what it was, and she was surprised I hadn't recognized that it was a Labrador Retriever. "He looks a little different," I said. She assured me that because the breeder was Amish, this was a finely bred Lab. He grew up to look like no purebred Lab I've ever seen.

One of our dogs (Rudy) was purchased by a rescuer from an Amish dog auction for five dollars thirteen years ago and was then put up for adoption by a rescue group. (I’ve been told that the unpurchased dogs were killed.) We adopted him immediately and have loved him dearly. He is without a doubt the most neurotic dog we’ve ever had. He follows me from room to room; DH calls him my shadow. Even though the worst things he has experienced with us are baths and vet trips a few times a year, Rudy always seems to be suspicious that something bad is about to happen to him. This isn’t projection on our part. When he’s following me, if I suddenly turn and walk toward him, he runs. He’s not good at eye contact. Right now he’s asleep at my feet, where he always is.

I was done here but in light of some of the responses, let me be clear.

While I had heard various stories as some have related, I went for a visit to the area, then a second, with no preconceived ideas. What I saw not once, not twice, but multiple times (you do the math) were animal abuse incidents SO HORRIFYING that they remain in my mind's eye to this day. I'm not going to describe what I saw, it was beyond disgusting and shocking.

So I take that, I take the tales I've heard of animal and child abuse and I say - these people have major problems. While they may want to live their 18th-19th century existences with practices and values that have long since been prohibited and left behind, they should not be beyond reach of our society's modern laws. Barbaric practices aren't protected simply by alleging they're done in pursuit of their religion. And whatever that happens to be, I don't care. I'd say the same about religious extremists of any kind, no one and no group is above the law and free to do as they wish when expectations and laws to enforce modern human and humane behavior are violated.

Some people seem to have a habit of disputing views that differ from what they know or understand, even if what they know or understand little or nothing about a topic.

I described in overview what I saw, I described my reactions, and that's that. If someone wants to suggest I didn't see what I saw and suggest because of that my reactions are unjustified and these poor people need to be tolerated and better understood, well, it's you who are wrong but you can have your opinions as I can have mine.

The largest Amish settlement in Ohio runs through Coshocton, Wayne, Holmes, Tuscarawas , Licking and Knox counties. Just sayin............

Thank you for not describing your experiences there, Elmer. I have a hard time forgetting what I've heard about animal horrors. I've been to the Lancaster area once for a family reunion nearby, and just took a leisurely drive through the countryside (beautiful,) with a few stops at farm stands. I was mortified when I realized my cousin was taking a picture of the buggy ahead of his car, and chastised him.

Bless you Elmer. I was trying to think of what to say - and you did it for me.

We visited the area many years ago while visiting family in Philadelphia. We went to Hershey Park, Lancaster and stayed at a working dairy farm near Lititz. Our kids really loved the farm.

It is a beautiful area, and we didn’t see evidence of animal abuse by the Amish. I guess I am out of the loop because until this thread I had never heard of them abusing animals. Just because you are visiting the area does not mean you are supporting animal abuse.

Because the Amish operate as a community I am sorry to have to say that if someone in that community is operating a puppy mill then the entire community is on board with what is happening there. They have a group of men who make decisions about how everyone in the community lives. Each community does have differences in those decisions. But everything anyone does is voted on and approved. There are no individual decisions. That is something to consider. As a way to live it has for me some serious issues. They are patriarchal communities. The male is the connection to God. Only some men are wise enough to represent accurately that connection. Kind of Catholic really.

In the years I lived there, i never saw the animal abuse others say they saw on limited trips. I don't distrust them but i don't know how to explain that i never saw it (other than puppy mills which I have already addressed). I have more thoughts on this but frankly, like Mtn, I don't have a dog in this fight...

But again-- the area has so much more to offer visitors than the Amish. As I said above, there are a large number of art galleries, funky shops, museums, breweries. Lancaster has a number of colleges, an art school, growing number of software companies and other businesses that attract professionals. The Amish do not "own" Lancaster and if you choose to avoid them or their businesses, you do not have to work hard.

@Elmer J Fudd I hope I didn't come across as disbelieving what anyone here said they actually saw. I'm sorry Elmer that you had to see something so horrible, that has obviously stayed with you. But I will say, just as you saw what you saw, we never saw any of that. We never even saw unhealthy looking animals. I think it is just as many groups are, one bad apple does not make the whole bunch bad. I said earlier the Amish fascinate me. What we saw did. The hardworkers, the beautiful gardens, the keeping to themselves, the primitive vehicles, etc. But if there are puppy mills, abuse of animals, abuse of women and/or children, I most certainly do not agree or condone that. The few Amish that we spoke with were kind and although a bit reticent, friendly. But I most certainly believe you when you tell us your experience. However, I still agree with this statement: I am uncomfortable about any sweeping, de-humanizing judgments and I think we all need to think long and hard before we do that to any group. I also agree with Funky, that Lancaster is more than the Amish community. It's a beautiful area and I enjoyed our visit. The Amish were but a part of that visit.

If you go to the area, my recommendation is to visit Hershey, PA and have fun seeing all of the chocolate-related attractions, such as street lights in the shape of Hershey's kisses. HERSHEY is, in my opinion, a fun place to visit. Again, in my opinion, The Amish are a facade and harbor abuses of all kinds, and I choose to avoid it. But there are other beautiful and enjoyable things in the area. Give Shoofly Pie a taste in a variety of spots. It's always different and can be delicious. And Hershey Park, as I said above, can be fun. These are fantasy things. The Amish and their atrocities are very real.

2pups4me, there are only 9 puppy mills in OH, not hundreds.

https://www.cleveland19.com/2020/05/12/horrible-hundred-list-ohio-has-nd-most-puppy-mills-us-per-humane-society-report/

"However, I still agree with this statement: I am uncomfortable about any sweeping, de-humanizing judgments"

I've visited Third World countries and have never seen anything so vile. There's no judgement involved. Do you want to hear details of what I witnessed?

The Amish and their atrocities ARE very real. As I said both sides of my ancestors came to Lancaster County in the first decade of the 1700s and most of the family never left the area. I was born and raised here and it's a beautiful part of the state. My ancestors came from Germany and Switzerland(which was confirmed by my 23 and ME kit but I already knew) and this part of PA reminded them of their home countries.

>>A few years ago two Amish brothers who knew they were being investigated by the state for their puppy mills took 79 dogs out and shot them before the visit. Too many people saw the movie Witness with Harrison Ford and flocked here. I actually literally ran into Ford at an antique show in a small booth and didn't know who he was till after he left.

Visiting Lancaster county, I would recommend Lititz. I have spent many days there shopping in the delightful downtown. And Hershey isn't in Lancaster county, it's in Dauphin County. I've been there so many times I couldn't count, starting when I was five and my grandfather took me on the Comet, a cool wooden rollercoaster that I always loved. It's still there. And Hershey had a starlight ballroom back in the day where we'd go to dances. The ballroom ceiling opened up and they got the popular artists of the times.

Summersrhythm, not true. The article is only addressing the “horrible hundred” mills inspected/known for operation. There are plenty that are “under the radar.” I happen to live in a county in NE Ohio, neighboring an Amish community. Trust me, they DO run mills. They may be smaller operations, but they do exist. Our county dog shelter sometimes gets “throw-aways” from backyard breeders, if the dog is lucky enough not to be shot. Sad, but true.

@Elmer J Fudd no, i don’t want details.

To declare a group of people "vile" and "twisted" is a de facto sweeping judgement.

I'm not doubting what you saw, and it does not matter to me what you saw. Not a single person here is in *favor* of what you saw, and I imagine we all support enforcement of animal welfare laws, period. You are correct that religious freedoms should not and do not extend to breaking such laws.

I take issue with sweeping judgements about groups; particularly around race, religion, or ethnicity. Always.

I agree with mtnrdredux 100%, again. (Also with Tina_Marie, no details please, not necessary, I believe Elmer when he says the behavior was vile.)

Here is an example of a reply that attempts to be fair and not demonize and entire religion.

"One thing you may want to be aware of is that there have been many reports of disturbing behavior in Amish communities. In particular, many of the infamous "puppy mills" are reportedly owned by Amish. As farmers, their culture tends to have a less sentimental view of animals, and, in the extreme, there have been multiple charges of abuse of both farm animals and in these puppy mills. The (subservient) role of women in Amish society has also been controversial, as in many organized religions. As with any travel aimed at learning about a different culture, there is good and bad to be aware of, as well as the touristy, ersatz "cultural" sights versus the more genuine."

Individuals are responsible for individual behavior, and individuals who directly condone that behavior are also partly to be blame and deserving of judgement (e.g. if you know your neighbor is running a puppy mill and you do nothing, I've got an issue with you).

HOWEVER, there are many instances across all different religions and other groups where people do vile things, from abusing puppies to flying planes into buildings That doesn't mean the entire community should be condemned.

I feel like in other contexts, most people would be appalled by this type of collective judgement. Would those defending the "don't visit the Amish, they are all horrible animal abusers" be comfortable with someone giving the advice: "Don't visit Mexico, they're all drug dealers and MS-13 gang members." Or, "Don't do business with Muslims, they treat women horribly and use their religion to justify terrorism in the name of Allah."

If those sentences appall you (as they should) why are you OK making a sweeping judgement about the Amish?

Mtn -

A - I adore you, so please don't feel like I'm picking a fight with you...

and

B - how is what you posted any different? The piece you posted just uses more fluffy words and dances around it - but virtually says almost the exact same thing.

Women are treated as inferior to men, AND animals are not treated as sentient beings with inherent rights to not be tortured.

I can not be a part of sanctioning, promoting, or spending any money in support of any Amish business or practice. I also largely agree with what Elmer and a few others wrote about their religion and the way they conduct their communities.

I am in no way saying don't visit Lancaster - it's beautiful there. I am saying the Amish are - in general and no matter where they live (Pennsylvania, Ohio, Upstate NY, etc.) - perfectly fine with very literally torturing animals to death, and they believe women must be subservient to men. Both of those are big fat NO's with me.

I feel like in other contexts, most people would be appalled by this type of collective judgement.

This is exactly what surprises me, too, Beagles.

Since they are a small sect of people who unanimously live by these beliefs, it crazy to compare them with billions of Muslims or Mexicans. They unilaterally treat animals horrifically, men are superior, women are Stepford wives, and the kids are given adult jobs and severely treated if they don't perform. Across the board. What other society compares?

how is what [mtnrdredux] posted any different? -- did you really want an answer? I could be quite detailed, but it would be tiresome to read so "Let's not, and say we did", to quote an old friend. (Sorry to butt in!)

unanimously?

unilaterally?

Who knew we had an expert in-house.

Sorry to the OP who just wanted travel tips!

LOL Patrice, thank you that is so sweet. I just saw your post. I'm not mad at anybody. I don't think I can explain why these posts upset me any more clearly than I have already. I have nothing to add. And I actually kind of admire how fiercely people feel about mistreating animals, i can feel the passion about the topic and I think that is very good. But de-humanizing a group is a practice i find very dangerous as a rule.

If I were Amish, I'd rather see what I wrote above than someone just saying my community was vile and twisted. YMMV

I didn’t want to chime in again but...

I am personally in business with an Amish family so I am not just throwing out terms like Stepford wives etc. I have inside knowledge of many of these families and I am not sure where some people are getting their information from. Someone above seemed to think there was a problem with a large amount of children in a family. I don’t believe anyone should be told what amount of children they can have. Do children have chores to do? Yes and so did mine growing up. If I had farm animals you can bet my children would be tending to them. Children are severely disciplined? Have you seen the Amish people beating their children? Women are subservient? Their religion believes the man is the head of the household. They are MANY religions that believe that and it doesn’t mean the husband beats his wife and never let’s her out of the house. Yes I know Elmer saw an incident of animal abuse. How does this act condemn a whole group of people?The families I work with are hard working people who love their families. I usually try not to get involved with conversations like this on this site but I went there.

"Yes I know Elmer saw an incident of animal abuse."

No, I saw multiple incidents of a similar nature, all consistent with what a local (a friend of a friend, someone from the area) had warned me often happens. All vile. Would YOU like me to describe what I saw, multiple times, that was so outrageous and disgusting?

Your comment is another instance of what I mentioned before, as if saying - " I don't have the same information you have or haven't experienced what you did, so you're wrong".

.

So then all Amish are guilty? Unfortunately plenty of non Amish abuse animals. Dogs raised to fight. Roosters used in fighting rings. I didn’t say anything about the information you had nor did I say you were wrong.

Were we talking about a church where the women have no say and children are abused? Oh. sorry, I was thinking of another religion.

- " I don't have the same information you have or haven't experienced what you did, so you're wrong". -- you do realize this works both ways, don't you?

No one doubts your experience Elmer.

But generalizing what you saw to ALL Amish people isn't a whole lot different than saying that you personally saw a criminal of a certain race shoot someone twice and your friend told you it happens all the time by those people, so obviously everyone of that race is 100% definitely a gang banging murderer....

There are around 344,670 Amish people in the United States. There are an estimated 10,000 puppy mills in the U.S. If every puppy mill is run by an Amish person, that would mean around 3% of Amish people are operating a puppy mill.

I saw too many horses at below zero temperatures in early December where you could see their ribs to just state it is just a few. Even if the horses only grazed they should not have been in that condition at that time of the year. I would like people to look at the condition of their horses and how they are being treated. Do not do what I initially did and looked then mentally said nice horses. It was only when I actually looked did I see the condition they were in. I do wonder if some are confusing the other Anabaptist groups with the Amish. There are other groups who do use and do some of the things that the Amish do but without the disregard for the care of animals, wives and children. Amish also group themselves under 'house' and 'church' some using modern convivences where necessary.

One of those interesting things about Amish made stuff is that in certain areas the factory may have an Amish label on it but most of the workers are not.

"Unfortunately plenty of non Amish abuse animals."

That makes what they do and what I saw okay then?

No and no one said that. Why didn’t you report the abuse to the police?

Oh, so I'm to blame if it continues?

Adding up what you've said, it's okay because plenty of non-Amish abuse animals and I didn't call the police.

How do either of those two things matter at all? Are you serious?

Elmer visited here. I have lived here my whole life and ten generations of my family have. I have attended auctions many, many times with the Amish and have seen the abuse when the children act like kids. I have seen little kids have their arms almost pulled out of joint by a parent if they dared step two feet away from the parent attending the auction. I have seen horses tied so tightly to a post in below-freezing conditions with no water, food, or covering in very inclement weather. Animals are like their machinery. They have zero empathy.

That said, my heart goes out to the sweet Linda Stolfous whose body was discovered yesterday. It's been in the news for ten months, and we all knew she was dead because some deadbeat is in prison for her disappearance. Innocent, young 18-year-old walking home from church in her long dress and bonnet, and this cretin raped and murdered her. Hoping for the death penalty.

And remember the Nickel Mines tragedy.

lily316, your mention of the starlight ballroom made me smile. My mom grew up in Harrisburg and my delightful grandfather would describe the place to me. When I asked what happened when it raine, he said the ladies would mop up the rain with their dresses. I believed this! :)

I'm only vaguely familiar with the Amish, but after researching a bit further, my heart goes out to the Amish youth struggling with their sexual identity if it doesn't fit within the rigid parameters the Amish prescribe families.