Let's start by talking about just what 'gravel' is. The term seems to find a variety of definitions around the country, so before we talk about your issue, it might be useful to let you know what 'gravel' is around here in New England, then you can decide is what you have is similar. 'Gravel' is a well graded, hard, durable, and natural sand and gravel, containing no organic (loamy) soils. It's free draining, which means water will readily pass through it. And it has a natural moisture content that lends to it's ability to be compacted to a very dense and hard consistency. Now, if that's what your dealing with, what does that mean to you? It means that if what you excavated from the hole is more organic, loamy, or silty in nature, and not completely mineral soils (like gravel), then you need something else to use as a base, and dispose of that which you 'dug out'. If what you've purchased is similar to the description above, having no stones larger than an a half inch or so, then it will make an acceptable base for your patio. The caveat here is that whatever you use, it needs to be both free-draining, and it needs to be very well compacted, preferably using a vibratory plate compactor, so that when you walk on it, pretty much nothing moves. Sand, by itself, as a base material, does not lend itself to deep compacted layers. Look at the stuff closely, and you will see that the particles are rather rounded in nature, and even thought the particles are small, they will react to compaction much like marbles, and ultimately they can move. In the construction industry, gravel, while capable of being readily compacted to an acceptable base, isn't what the pros will lean towards due to the inclusion of stones up to and including an inch and a half or so, and they don't want to spend the time picking them out. So, what does the industry use? More often than not, and depending on location, paver and bluestone bases are contructed of either crushed gravel, or crushed stone, or what is called crusher-run. Crushed gravel is natural gravel that has been 'processed' to eliminate stones that are too large by crushing them, and yet not requiring a sieve to pick them out of the material. Crushed stone is just that, a by-product of a quarrying operation that is crushed and then processed through a series of sieves to separate the particles by size, eliminating any and all fine particles, and creating uniformly graded products from 1/4" crushed stone up to 6" crushed stone. Crusher-run is another by-product of a quarrying operation, where stone is crushed and processed only to insure that no particle is larger than about one inch or so, with everything after the crushing operation left in the mix. When crushed stone is used, it is on the smaller end, 1/2" or so. Beyond that, compaction isn't an option. Crushed gravel and crusher-run can be more densely compacted as the particles within are all pretty much angular, and will fill just about all available space within the layer when compacted by machine. Sand and stone dust are used as a setting bed, no more than 1" to 2" thick, compacted, and then screeded to level. Bluestone, flagstone, or pavers are set on top of that. The dust and the sand can be worked by hand within the area of each stone in order to achieve a level final paver or stone surface. In your case, if you already have the gravel, it's free of large stones, you can likely use it, compact it, and place a layer of sand or dust on top as the setting bed. The keys really are....free-draining, free of large stones, and very well compacted. The material choice to fit that bill has a number of choices.

In reading these posts, maybe I have errored in my design. It's early though and nothing is permanent so I have the flexability to alter it. Bed is at foundation of house with a huge 3 piece 8" window in the wall. I have planted two Don Juan climbers in the two corners and have planted on putting up an 9' high by 2' wide lattice wall coming out from the house wall at each end of the bed to allow the climbers support. With the talk of the laterals it sounds like the two feet will be insuffcient to support them and promote a healthy full bloom. I could stretch these wall out up to 6' but would need to staircase them down say 2' every 18-24 inches. I'd hate to build the walls out and then not have them utilized by the rose. What is a realistic and practical size? Thanks in advance for your help, john

I like our 2" thick 12x12 pavers edged in orange brick laid on a sand base. It was a lot more work than we 1st thought because our ground wasn't level. I wish we would have checked that before we started excavating the soil. If you're going to DIY instructions are available online for building a base. I highly recommend you follow the advice so that your patio has the correct slope for drainage & stays in place. It's hard work digging, leveling, tamping, carrying & spreading sand, moving pavers, etc. & you don't want to have to do it over. An evergreen climber on a trellis would screen views. If you want partial shade you might consider a pergola and grow grapes or other edibles on it. You mentioned a child & I've found that our younger visitors enjoy playing on the lawn, wood chip area under the cedar tree, or the wooden deck rather than the paver patio. You might consider a more forgiving surface while your child is young. I'm also more relaxed when our nephew is on the lawn or deck with resin furniture than on the patio near the iron furniture. When our kids were young we had a covered sand box that was enjoyed nearly year round then when they were done with it the sand went into the garden & we gave away the sand box. We kept the sand toys & trucks right in the sand box underneath the lid, so it was easy to remove the lid & play. In my area the cedar play chips are readily available & make a nice covering that stays dry during wet winters. Unplanted areas where our lawn wouldn't grow because of shade or where we walk a lot to the hose and to the chicken coops have been covered with the play chips and cedar arborist chips. I like the weathered look that is easy to maintain because it never need mowing, watering, or weeding! On occasion rake a bit & renew to keep the depth. If you think you might want to grow plants at some point in your backyard you may want to use chips now & let them decompose then when your child is older you could rake them aside & layer compost materials for growing vegetables & fruits. Hope that helps!

"Problem is finding a good paver "setter" who has a bit of creativity & vision." It's a mistake to think that paver installers are the ones that should be responsible for designing the project. Installers are primarily interested in installing the maximum square footage of patio that you will buy, and could probably care less about the layout, other than that they would prefer you provide a good one so they can walk away with pride and end up with a decent project for their portfolio. While they will design it by default, if you don't provide a design, the quality of their ideas will be on on you. If you don't have the design skills (alone or in conjunction with this forum) to design the patio, then you should be consulting with a LANDSCAPE DESIGNER, not a paver installer. Get the design done first, and then find an installer to place it. If you don't have a design (on paper) then you have nothing to bid on. In that case, every contractor you talk to will recommend different things and the pricing will be all over map. You'll have bids you can't compare with other bids because they'll all be for different things. As far as 12' vs. 14' depth, I would consider 12' the absolute minimum usable dimension. A designer would want to know the exact furniture that you're placing on the patio, and the contingencies for when you want to set up for the occasional larger group for special occasions, if that ever happens. Even if it never happens for you, it would be typical of most households. If resale (ever) is a concern, I wouldn't make the patio the absolute smallest a person can "get by" with. One that is of a size usable for a typical "family" with your size house in your type of neighborhood, would be a better choice. Rarely does anyone make a patio that they think is too large. Usually, they're wishing they had a little more space. I suggest figuring out your furniture and all uses and make the patio comfortably large enough to accommodate everything with a little extra room added. There's little point to building something new that you regret soon after you start using it. The difference in cost between barely-big-enough and comfortable is not that great. Buried utilities rarely limit a patio's placement. Water, sewer, gas, electricity are (should be) deep enough to be well below a patio. They might warrant some caution in excavation, but this is nothing to be fretting over. Irrigation lines might be shallow, but still probably won't be a problem. In the worst case scenario, if they are very shallow, they can easily be rerouted. (Some reconfiguration is likely anyway, since you don't want to be watering your patio.) Cable and telephone (if anyone has that any more) tends to the shallowest. These can both be rerouted to a lower placement or different route. Whether you abut or space it away from the structure, in order to make room for foundation beds, make the patio length (its longest dimension) be parallel to the home, not perpendicular to it. (Something said earlier made me think this was possibly going wrong.)