Even with alerts about my Wish List, I think the new format will have me purchasing less from them in the long run. Not consciously, but... here's an example. If I go the grocery store I generally have a list and may need five things - bread, milk, eggs, cheese, and beer (I am from Wisconsin). I'm not going to leave the grocery store with just those items though. I'll grab some cookies or chips or something that's on sale, etc. I generally shop for roses the same way. I go with some specifics in mind, but end up with a few extras that were new or looked interesting. Not technically something on my Wish List, but were purchases of opportunity. So, Heirloom, even though they know they'll have a rose variety ready in spring when I want my order delivered because it is in production (but not ready and available when I place my order) loses out on my purchases of opportunity. They will then only get my purchases of targeted intent. Roses that are on my Wish List and varieties that are specific to them. I think Rogue Valley might be the master of purchases of opportunity - I may only specifically be shopping for three roses, but I'm sure as heck going to find a fourth to get the free rose. Maybe it is because Heirloom's new owner comes from an electronics background. Depending on what kind of electronics, those are very targeted purchases. I've never bought electronics or computers or phones without knowing what I want, researching it, and going an getting it at the best price. It is never an emotional or gut decision. Even though I try to be orderly and researched in my rose purchases, I never quite succeed. Roses and plants are very emotional decisions that can be from the gut. It is bloody cold out and my gut tells me to spend money on flowers for spring. Where will I now wander in search of them?

"It makes little sense to me as why people would take such a winding road of using drawings from one dealer to purchase a different brand of cabinets from other dealer." You'd think wouldn't ya? But it happens all the time. After all the design is free right? Over the years I've had, and seen other KDs have, clients walk off at the end taking plans to another dealer who now doesn't have to work much, solve details, etc. So discounts the job. Hence some dealers want retainer. The majority of dealers don't ask for a retainer. Many that do want it up front to do any work. Some don't want to scare clients but want to be covered so charge in stages, a small sum to start and establish price, then more for finals. It sounds like that is the model your place uses since 500 is only adequate for a really small simple job. Places that ask for a full retainer up front want much more. I realize you believe you have a finished design already. Based on average experience, the dealer may not. It is rare for someone to walk in with a plan that doesn't require a good bit of work and revisions. I can't tell without being there. Hollysprings says hi end shops charge retainers. While I do plenty of hi end I also do lots of little jobs. To me it is a matter of respecting what I do. I am convinced that it makes for a better relationship with the client. I do retainers, after the second design meeting. By then I've been to the site, a scheme is chosen and clear pricing is provided. Typically I have 12-20 hrs in by then. I get 10%, commit or shop. I always release drawings -drafts (and parts lists with itemized prices) from then on. There can be as many revisions as needed. This is not the typical model uused by anyone else though. Occasionally I will release a draft without a retainer: when it doesn't matter, not much work is put in, a referral from a pro, or I really trust the client. In your case I might but hard to say. Finals are more work, should be few if any revisions, and require a final site visit. They come at the end. (I've done plenty of jobs where the finals were 8-10 pages, 11 x 17) I get paid by when you buy cabinets, but I sell kitchens. Kitchens involve design, details and service - all included but not free. Someone suggested that renderings, design and such are provided in the hopes of selling the job. That is how many dealers work and I believe it accounts for some of the problems folks see with lackluster KDs. Not unlike- Your boss asks you to put in a week and half on a project, but won't let you know if your getting paid until your done. Edited to add: There is a legal liability attached to drawings. I know of one case where client took drawings from dealer A, bought cabinets from dealer B, had problems and sued BOTH dealers. And won the suit against both. Hence "drafts" This post was edited by jakuvall on Sun, May 26, 13 at 8:48

Agartta, thanks very much. I appreciate it. I have been doing exactly that: waiting it out. As I said before, time will tell. I have contacted my ISP regarding their Block List and whether or not Mr. Ko's email address and/or domain is on their block list. It's crazy how people don't believe that a seller's business could go south. I'm not saying that Mr. Ko's business has gone south... I'm sure it hasn't. But if it happens, it has to start with someone. It's not impossible. It seems that some don't want to know what is going on. I don't understand that. Almost all of the suppliers - of seeds and plants alike - have been scrutinized here in great detail! I've read the posts! Heck, even Rinoa had to reconsider a transaction from the recent past. Why wouldn't you want to know about this, especially if you regularly deal with Mr. Ko? I'm not asking anyone to defend him - I'm just passing along the information. (Hmmm, maybe that has been the problem all along. I should have posted from Day One: "No replies or defense necessary - just stating facts.") If I was in the market for buying seeds and read this, I would want to know and I wouldn't want others to squelch the info. That is so puzzling to me why some want to suppress valuable sharing of information. Not too long ago, a wise person said, "It's good to look out for each other. It's what makes us a community. Even if sometimes we butt heads over potting mixes, best training or grafting methods, styles, whatever. Adeniums brought us together." Thanks, again, Agartta. One more time: Time will tell! Carol

This isn't to be rude...but more educational: It's funny how people not in the business don't realize the complexities of kitchen ordering....and the time required to write up a clean, perfect order. . Yes, some orders are easy and just require the basics. But today, most kitchens are more complex (or customized) and go floor to ceiling. Expectations are so much higher. Every little detail must be spelled out. Knowledge of how things fit and clearances all go hand in hand with a kitchen order. Also, the box construction and overlay will determine how you order the cabinets. My order of a frameless kitchen will be completely different from an inset kitchen. Many times people are shocked when I tell them in can take me anywhere from 1-3 days to get an order faxed in. Things you have to check: hinging, finished ends, corner clearances, appliances specs, hardware fit or interference, ceiling heights and crown molding design, unlevel floors and ceilings....I could go on and on. Some orders require me to hand-draw a custom cabinet for the factory. And once you get it faxed in....then you wait for the acknowledgement and you have to check it and double check it again! THEN it goes in to production. My clients think they'll get the cabinets 6 wks from when they hand me the deposit. It doesn't work that way. Figure in another week for ordering write up, factory time in processing the order and time for me to double check everything again. Have said all of that, I'm sure there are some freelance KD's out there that could help you out. Maybe Barkers has a list? Do you expect them to take on any fit responsibility to your house? If yes, I would pass. Like Greendesigns said....$300 isn't worth the liability.