I like Damasks and their near relatives, too, but grow them in conditions probably significantly different from yours, especially with regard to summer humidity. With that in mind, I have a high opinion of 'Enfant de France' and 'Reine des Violettes', which appears to be in the group. They're both supposed to repeat, I believe, but I honestly can't remember whether they do for me, as I don't water in summer, so that repeat depends on the weather, and my noticing it on whether I get out in that part of the garden at that time. Enfant in particular is stupendous, but apparently iffy in many conditions, and you might want to read the comments on it in HMF. Also the HP-Moss-Hybrid-Damask I got (twice) as 'Gloire des Mousseux' but which is probably 'Mme. Louis Leveque'. This gets some mildew but shrugs it off. Very vigorous and strong; upright; suckers; the "high-shouldered" flower is noticeable. Also there's 'Salet', which is stuck off in a corner. That one should repeat. Nice to meet another enthusiast of this group.

P.S. How could I forget 'Rose du Roi'? Very Damask-y and satisfactory; once again, I can't vouch for reblooming: you'd have to check with others. And, the elephant in my garden, at least--it's huge--'Blanc de Vibert', hard enough to get to bloom once, let alone twice, but I couldn't not mention it.

Damask crud. It is probably a form of blackspot, but maybe not. The leaves get large black patches, but don't drop off. They just hang out looking manky.

What else can you say about a group of roses that has its own disease vocabulary?

I really enjoy 'Indigo'. I have it in a pretty shady spot and it remains free of disease and definitely repeats. My only complaint is the flowers fry very quickly for me. Perhaps I need to water it more.

-Chris

I have Rose de Rescht and Ispahan and Reine des Violettes. RdR and RdV repeat.

I had in mind a small group of true Damask Perpetuals--ie roses without discernable China ancestry that repeat their bloom, not Portland hybrids or Hybrid Perpetuals.

In addition to Autumn Damask, QSBM, and the Portland rose, this group includes (per Phillip Robinson):

Rose du Roi original (not the rose in commerce)

Panachee de Lyon

Catherine Ghislaine

Pickering's Royal Four Seasons

Indigo

Duchesse de Rohan

Marbree

Delambre

Marie de St. Jean

Rose de Recht--not sure how it should be classified--I've seen it listed as an HP; blackspot is a problem with this rose as it is with HPs.

I had not heard of Benny Lopez, but it looks interesting--surely a strong Damask influence with those elongated hips.

I'm glad to hear a good report of Marbree. I understand it is a good seed producer and I like to raise Damask and Gallica seedlings.

Does anyone here have any of the others on the list above? How spotty is their foliage? I don't spray. I expect my roses to take care of themselves.

Mad Gallica--were you referring to any of the roses on my list or to some of the Damask hybrids that have obvious China ancestry?

Lindsey

Nancy Lindsay herself called Rose de Rescht a Hybrid Perpetual, and Phillip Robinson also pretty much says it's an early HP. (Interestingly, I'd always assumed Rescht had a dry climate, but I recently found out it's hot and humid there and classed as subtropical or Mediterranean.) Robinson's article is the second place I've read a mention that Rose de Rescht was here in the US historically--but I haven't found any more detail about that. Where was it found here? Who found it? What year did it arrive here? (I have one on the way to me at the moment.)

Marbree is a very tough plant. I found out almost too late that some stray cat was using it's admittedly too large pot as a litter box when I saw it half dug up one morning. It looked pretty pathetic. I put it in a smaller pot and it made a quick recovery and was putting out new growth when I stupidly decided it needed to be in a different pot. I accidentally ripped off roots transferring it, but now it seems to be making another good recovery--so yes--a tough plant. In addition to the unusual spotted flowers, the leaves give off a pine scent when you rub them.

I also have Autumn Damask, The Portland Rose (Duchess of Portland), and Pickering Four Seasons. They're all new.

I tried these in the past no-spray, and they were all a disaster of crud and blackspot. I'm trying them again with fungicide, but still don't spray. Since they're all in pots (to expose them to as much winter chill as possible) I add the fungicide to their water once a week. It seems to be working. So they're an experiment right now. The next big test is going to be how they handle the intense sun and heat of my summers. Even if the foliage is clean, it may still burn. We'll see.

It sounds like you might be looking at breeding new Damask Perpetuals that have no China influence? A great idea, and I'd love to see your results. It seems to me, though, without DNA it's just not possible to be sure. In the group you list above, I THINK there were only two known repeaters before the arrival of the Chinas: Autumn Damask and The Portland Rose. I don't have the climate, space, or ambition to do it, but IF I DID, the safest thing to me would be to cross those two umpteen times and work with their seedlings. But I'm no hybridizer, so that may be a crazy idea.

If we classify Rose de Resht and Marchesa Boccella as HPs, then they are the best in that class for me because they grow and repeat well. Reine des Violettes did very little and died a year or two after I moved it. Paul Neyron (a grafted, bagged rose I saw one day at Walmart) did nothing and died, La Reine blooms occasionally, is never more than a foot high, and has blackspot most of the time. Eugene Furst (given to me by a friend is quite small, hasn't bloomed this year, but looks healthy and is usually much cleaner than La Reine. I am trying to do better with it because its velvety red blooms are so beautiful--much prettier than any of the others except MB.

I would like to raise a new Damask Perpetual from seed, and you are probably right that the only way to exclude China influence is to work with AD, QSBM, or Portland whose ancestry is not only known but confirmed by DNA testing.

Lindsey

No, I haven't grown any on your non-China list. Portland from Glendora was total disaster. I don't know how Salet survives without ever having leaves. Rose de Rescht has been our official dividing line for many years. Anything that looks worse than it is automatically asked to leave. While it is in a fairly bad place, we've also had trouble with Mme Hardy, FWIW.

Brent Dickerson theorized that RdR was originally a European rose that wandered off in many directions.

Thank you--I have mixed feelings about RdR, too. It is on the recommended list of the Richmond Rose Society and I have heard Andre VIette recommend it several times. April and May have been cool and damp here and Blackspot has been worse than usual this year--we lost many buds to cold nights, too. Even so, it's been a good year because of the cool weather.

My worst roses are a couple of found China hybrids or once-blooming early Bourbons--one might be Malton, I don't know. It blooms early and flowers are large and beautiful, but some of the leaves turn completely black. One cane drooped onto a nearby Apothecary and spilled blackspot onto its leaves.

I don't think I want to get rid of that rose but I do plan to move it in the fall or winter--can't let it infect clean roses.

I am considering Damask perpetuals because teas haven't done very well and blackspot is a problem for Old Blush, Blush Noisette, etc.

Lindsey

Lindsey, I suspect your garden is quickly becoming a trial garden for your area. If you have the inclination, I encourage you to grow any Damasks/Damask Perpetuals that seem promising and enjoyable and then record your seasonal experiences. With climate change being what it is, roses that were successful 10 years ago may be disease prone now, and roses which failed to thrive 10 years ago may very well make excellent garden plants today.

I am gardening on the other side of the continent but would still recommend giving Indigo a shot for a few years. If it is happy in your garden, it will reward you with kaleidoscope bloom, intense fragrance and some remontancy (blooms on and off all summer).

If I lived in your area, I'd try Rose de Rescht, too. My RdR doesn't blackspot much at all here Blackspot Central, and even though our regional fungi may differ from yours, I believe that RdR is worth a few years of trial. The fragrance alone is completely seductive but RdR offers so much more. It is very floriferous during its late spring flush, the individual blooms are pure charm and I get smatterings of bloom all summer. The plant is mannerly.

I don't know how much China rose influence resides in the genes of Marchesa Boccela/Jacques Cartier, but I have heard good things about this rose from your side of the US, and I think it might add something wonderful to your breeding program and your garden. In my garden, MB/JC is a winner, one of my favorite OGRs! I believe that I may have a climbing version in addition to the shrub. I received my slender, 10'-12' tall, non remontant MB/JC look alike as a mislabeled rose. There is some confusion about whether or not the MBs and JCs in commerce are the same rose cultivar or two very similar roses with different disease resistances, bloom performances, etc. Somewhere on the forum, there are threads discussing the question of ID, and these might be worth excavating.

I am ordering Benny Lopez from Burlington Roses and would love to hear about your experiences if you decide to grow him. Jeri's many posts have convinced me that I need to enjoy and preserve this historical beauty!

Carol

Lindsey, I apologize that I just caught the line of your text where you said you already grow Jacques/Marchesa and Rose de Rescht! (Rolling my eyes at myself.) I sure turned on the big sell for someone who already grows and appreciates them. Anyway, I was just revisiting your post to compare your damask/perpetual list with the list of roses in Monticello's Rose Border. I noticed that Amanda Patenotte (which is probably Portland from Glendora?) is growing at Monticello,. Mad Gallica obviously had a painful experience with PfG, but it might be worth a shot for you if it's growing well at Monticello. Baronne Prevost is apparently planted there, too. I wonder if they are no-spray healthy at Monticello. None of the above helps with your non China ancestry quest, but if you end up including more China ancestry in your breeding lines than you originally intended, maybe it will be useful to know that these two remontants are growing in your general area. Carol

Hmm, Monticello may be drier than we are, but not much. Baronne Prevost was considered ungrowable here without a serious spray program. I tried, and was told by several other people it wouldn't work. Comte de Chambord wasn't much better. So my expectation is that either Monticello is still in the old world of 'roses must be sprayed', or they lost Baronne Prevost many years ago.

Carol--I appreciate your reference to Monticello--I bought my first two roses there. I looked at the list and discovered that I have several of the varieties grown in the rose border, including Belle Isis, Tuscany, Prairie Rose, and perhaps R. plena virginiana which looks rather like the rose I have been calling Banshee. It came from an old plantation in my county and is in bloom right now--a beautiful rose.

My once-bloomers are my best roses, even the three China hybrids which I tolerate because of their pretty blooms. I should add a word in praise of Indica Major, too, which is spectacular on a trellis despite too much blackspot this year.

Charlottesville is about 70 miles from Richmond--slightly colder and perhaps slightly less humid, but summers are hot. I spent some years there as a graduate student. When winter temperatures are marginal, the rain/snow line usually falls somewhere between Charlottesville and Richmond. One year we had snow overnight in early October before the leaves had fallen--what a mess .

Temperatures in Richmond can reach extremes from -12 to 107, although both may be once in a lifetime events. Humidity in summer is not rare and can make a day of 85 to 90 degrees almost unbearable. At times in the 17th century death rates reached 80% for new arrivals from England. The ordeal of surviving the first year in Virginia was called "seasoning."

Mad Gallica--I seem to recall you are close to the coast and have frequently mentioned high humidity in your area, so I am inclined to think that any rose which gets blackspot for you would do the same for me, although I see that Baronne Prevost is on the Richmond Rose Society's recommended like with a rating of 8.6 v. 9.0 for MB. Since my experience with HPs hasn't been good, I would be reluctant to try another from that group. More inclined to take a chance on a Damask Perpatual like Indigo or Marbree.

Lindsey

I'm about 100 miles up the Albany Post Road from NYC. So I don't think of us as coastal, even though the Hudson River is tidal this far north (watching the ice flow 'upstream' can be quite disconcerting). When we were actively buying roses, I'd see which ones the Virginians who didn't spray recommended for disease resistance, and the ones the Minnesotans recommended for hardiness. Roses that were on both lists were the ones I learned to buy. And yes, I'd agree that our blackspot issues are similar, though there are roses that will work better for you because they don't handle our winters well.

Lindsey, What a great thread this is! Of course, it has one foot planted in my favorite class of roses, Gallicas! I have not failed to notice that two of our forum reps are here, Belle Gallica and Mad Gallica. :-)

How wonderful that your first two roses came from Monticello's historical garden! I see that 2 on your first rose list are Tuscany and Belle Isis. "My once-bloomers are my best roses, even the three China hybrids which I tolerate because of their pretty blooms." Since once-bloomers like these gorgeous old Gallicas grow well for you, if I were you, I might be inclined to move in that direction. Perhaps checking out Paul Barden's roses and reading his blogs online could inform your breeding program. Although Paul is no longer creating new roses, much of his work was all about developing new Gallicas. Every one of his Gallicas I've tried in my garden has been very disease resistant, not to mention absolutely gorgeous. I am probably committing rosarian heresy when I admit that Allegra is lovelier than its parent, Duchesse de Montebello. Marianne is breathtaking. His purples are some of the most beautiful roses in commerce,

Barden Gallicas are non remontant, but remontancy might be something you could work toward if desired? Someday, I'm going to jump on the breeding wagon, but my next step is getting my small and very modest preservation area set up.

Carol

Mad Gallica--I haven't been as far north on the Post Road as you are, but when I was teaching at SHU, I enjoyed visiting Rockland and Westchester counties. Croton-on-Hudson and Tarrytown are lovely places. I don't recall going much further north than Ossining because I didn't want to get caught in afternoon traffic on the Parkway.

I like your approach to selecting roses. I was more intent on collecting the oldest varieties in each class or those recommended for their beauty, but have learned to value "clean" after seeing how much blackspot some of these varieties get in my climate.

Carol--I have enjoyed this discussion, too. It's always a pleasure to find others who love my favorite roses. A remontant Gallica would be quite a treasure, but I would be happy to find some with longer bloom cycles. I do have one found rose which I would characterize as a Gallica hybrid, with perhaps multiflora ancestry (it has hairy stipules and clusters of buds)--it blooms for almost the entire length of the spring season in my area.

Similar, I think, to Belle de Crecy, so perhaps a seedling.

Lindsey

I wish I could be a representative for the Gallicas. My climate is too hot and humid, and winters too mild to grow them well.

I chose that screen name long ago when I was just getting into old roses. I had stumbled across pictures of Belle Isis which led me here, and I would originally have chosen that as my screen name, but it was already taken. So I subbed "Gallica" for "Isis" since it was a Gallica rose, though I had no idea what that meant at the time. I just thought it was very pretty and wanted it.

BUT, based on a couple of people saying that Rosa Mundi does well even in warmer climates, I got that one this year as an experiment with the DPs I mentioned above. So I do have a Gallica. But it's a small thing in a 4 inch pot. Maybe I'll see some flowers next spring? I also want to get Belle Isis, the one that attracted me first. But no one has it at the moment.

If neither of those work, I might try the Hybrid China/Gallicas like Belle de Crecy or Duchess of Montebello. When I retire I want to move northward so that I can grow any of them :-)

Since we're on the subject, my Indigo has starting opening up. Definately darker in person but will turn more purple as it ages.

Bellegallica, I have a young Duchesse De Montebello.

Belle Gallica, how do Austins do for you? Paul's 'Marianne' and 'Allegra' are listed as zones 6b-9b and 4b-10b...probably due to Austin parents? 'Marianne' is from 'Abe Darby' and 'Allegra' is from 'St.Swithin'. Also, 'Etienne' (4a and warmer) is from 'Chianti'. I know from experience that they rival the old classics and look every bit OGR/Gallica, although I'd say 'Marianne" looks like 'Gloire de Dijon' and 'Charles de Mills' had productive sex. I grew 'Etienne' but gave it away to dear friends who had never seen such decadent, beetroot blooms. The 'Allegra' growing in Paul's garden is speech-defyingly exquisite and my current obsession. I grow a young 'Marianne' since I kept purchasing her, growing her, digging her up and passing her along to people who fell in love. I'm RVR waitlisted again for the other two and WILL NOT dig up and gift my current 'Marianne.' I hope you have wonderful luck with 'Rosa Mundi'. She's lovely!

Lindsey, maybe there should be a thread asking everyone to guesstimate the bloom period of their Gallicas, including Paul Barden's? I know, in general, his do bloom for quite a stretch in my garden, but I've never calculated how long, and mine are all rather young because I keep giving them away to friends or acquaintances that are both unfamiliar with them and bewitched by their old rose beauty. Since they are easy keepers here in Portland, I know they will flourish in their new homes unlike blackspot-on-a-stick HTs. I tell everyone that they are like camellias and rhododendrons. Who wouldn't grow a camellia just because it only blooms once a year?

Sheila, love the Duchesse!

Chris and Lindsey, I'll try to find a shot of my Indigo, too. I have one somewhere. To me, 'Indigo' looks and acts like a (moderately spreading) Gallica, smells like a Damask and repeats like a HP/Portland. It's very healthy here. No "damask crud" noted. How's its health for you, Chris?

Carol

Indigo

Also, I think I may have the climbing version of Jacques Cartier. I have been trying to figure out this rose for years! It was sent to me mislabeled. When it bloomed, I thought it was JC. But it shot up to 10' and has been non remontant in my garden. If I hard prune it, it becomes bloom stingy and then proceeds to shoot back up to its preferred height. HMF saysClimbing JC is remontant, but I have found that climbing sports are often less so than their shrub counterparts. Maybe someday, my "Probably Climbing JC" will begin to gift me a few post flush blooms over the summer. (My shrub JCs have always been remontant.) I just wanted to mention this rose on your thread, Lindsay, in case it interests you. Until I started researching my unusual, mislabeled Portland Damask, I had no idea a JC climber even existed. Carol