As you know, I like cats and have been feeding feral cats

4 years ago

I did not intend to have a feral colony, but started with a mother and her two larger kittens who came around and seemed hungry. It grew to eight who found my feeding station. I managed to trap and spade Henrietta, a very pretty combo calico/tortoise. I trapped Spatter and she escaped and went on to have four kittens on the front porch in a cushy bed I had placed there for the ferals.

After four days, she moved them, then a few days later she moved them to the back deck, Today, we captured the kittens and enticed Spatter into the cage with the kittens. We intend to tame the kittens and find homes for them and to spay Spatter after she weans them. I feed nine cases of Friskies every four weeks and a lot of chicken and roasted turkey. They are seem very healthy, and several of them will eat from my hand. The biggest male, Horton, loves to be petted. See...Crazy cat lady. Tha's me.

kay

Featured Answer

Sam CO z5

4 years ago

Back when I lived in Arizona we had a huge problem with Ferals. In one place I lived, there was a colony of polydactyl cats. There was one male that kept spraying my porch so I decided to try to catch him and get him neutered. Every time I saw him, I’d toss little tidbits of food to him. Gradually over about 2 months he got less scared of me. Then one day I was sitting outside getting ready to toss food to him, and he jumped on my lap and wrapped his big polydactyl paws around my neck and head butted me. It was like he suddenly needed to say thank you. And so he was neutered and became my favorite house cat I’ve ever had. He never sprayed again, and never wanted to go back outside. He was just a big friendly housecat born into the wrong life.

Thanks for taking care of the cats and getting them altered to keep the populations down. You’re an angel!

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Comments (49)

Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
4 years ago
You know you are doing God's work taking care of those that can't take care of themselves AND most importantly trying to keep them from reproducing....... I watch a cat rescue site in Canada called Tinykittens, where they have just taken in a feral blind cat and his one eyed companion among many others. These two are being socialized and receiving medical attention and then will be put up for adoption.............. All of you who do TNR have a special place in my heart............. BTW: I love the name Spatter................Maryl
celeste/NH
4 years ago
You are my hero! I applaud you for helping out the cats in this world where so many people don't care about much more than themselves. I'm also a cat lover (4 inside cats, all rescues) so your story warms my heart. We don't have feral populations where I live, thankfully. But one year, an emaciated and parasite infested kitten was hiding in my husband's equipment at his business. He was found in the middle of winter here, partially frozen. The temps were below zero that day. DH wrapped the kitten up and brought him inside the store. He made a bed with clean rags and gave him some food, which the starving kitten ate greedily as if he hadn't had a meal in days. DH then discovered that the poor baby had devastating injuries. His bowels were protruding out of his bum, from all the worms inside his body. It was the weekend and the only vet open was the emergency vet. We rushed the kitten there (a long ride away) only to be told the kitten could not survive. Our hearts were breaking but we knew we had to help end his suffering so we paid to have him euthanized. We cried in the waiting room as if it were a treasured family member. We were so devastated to know that his short life was only filled with suffering. Judging by his condition, he was a stray and living out in the elements his entire 4 month life. The image of him still haunts me. All of this is to say that my heart feels a lot better knowing that you are helping the ferals and that somewhere, some kitties are getting the help they need and none will have to suffer the same horrible fate. Thank you, Kay.
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organic_kitten
Original Author
4 years ago
I know a lot of us are animal lovers. We just can't stand to have hungry animals, and I cannot imagine doing nothing to prevent more cats being born into a hard life. We will neuter the females first, and then the males.

We captured Henrietta (originally called Hungry Henrietta...she had a temendous need to eat at first) by putting pieces of turkey into a cat carrier and closing the door. after she ran inside. We brought her home and kept her in a rabbit cage (pretty large space) and she would meow and get bits of chicken or turkey when she did. After five days we had an accident with the cage and had to toss a blanket over her to set her free. WE didn't think she would be back to eat for days. she was away 30 minutes and hardly ever leaves now.

I had captured Spatter and we were set to take her to vet when she escaped the carrier my spouse was taking to the car; hence the four little kittens; white, black, tortie and grey with beautiful white markings.

Maryl, the Spatter name is due to her tortoise/calico appearance; she looks as if a paintbrush spattered generous bits of orange all over along with some white.

Celeste, our neighbor has had a feeding station for years but fell down on getting them neutered. They also did not manage to get enough food to be satisfied. Of course, they get a lot here, and, apparently, tell their friends.

Spatter moves herself and, at times, her kittens into the litter box. I will doubtlessly have to do a bit of clean-up. I will enjoy taming the kittens though. She has not appeared to be disturbed by our handling them which is good.

kay
Nancy 6b
4 years ago
I really admire anyone who takes care of the ferals. Not just the food, they are so prone to parasites and disease as Celeste mentioned. I am so thankful that around here I don't see as many strays as I once did. At one time my cats found and adopted me, but I had to go to the humane society to get my last 2 cats. Although a stray has attached himself to me since, and maybe another very recently. It can be very expensive to properly take care of many cats. I think when a cat has been without a lot of meals, they prepare to go without by gorging, and can quickly get overweight. Such a great thing you do!
signet_gw(6b)
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
I can't have cats as my schnauzers would kill them but it doesn't mean I don't love cats ( and they always seem to love me ) always in my lap at friend's house. So I do appreciate those of you who rescue feral cats ( there are way too many of them .......shame on humans for that ) but those of you who care for them deserve a special spot in Heaven for caring for them . It can be very expensive , to provide vet care so anything that can help that costs little can be very helpful . Here is a video from a vet about clearing worms from dogs and cats wholistically . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRG_TZlgiVo . Also probably better for them rather than the nasty chemicals often prescribed for this purpose. It is a good bit of information to have in ones arsenal while caring for animals.

Edit: I thought I should mention I have used the pumpkin seeds with my dogs and they had no bad reaction to them .
organic_kitten
Original Author
4 years ago
Nancy, we have talked about the cats several times, so you know what a ninny I am. I do know a ggod many of us are cat lovers.Hannah, my Chihuahua loves to plany with the cats and she abuses one who won't fight back by pulling him around....He is a lot bigger than she is and could cause her misery but he loves her for some reason. Most of my feral cats have tamed a lot since I have been feeding them I toss them chcken and turkey pieces by calling the names I have given each of them. They are all good except the youngest, Tinke and they all allow him to grab morsels and don't punish him for it or for growling at them.They all are much healthier in appearance than when they came. Only the male who fights has anything wrong with his eyes. I enjoy feeding them and the husband is as big a sucker as I am so it works.

kay
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
4 years ago
From watching Tinykittens these last couple of years I've learned things about ferals I never really knew before. I thought I pretty much knew about cats and that feral was feral and couldn't be tamed. While that is the case in about 80% of fully adult ferals (born in the wild and never around humans as opposed to abandoned by humans and living wild), I've seen some miracle cases where an older feral cat came in from the cold so to speak and as they say "turned in his/her feral card"..........Celeste: That's a very touching story. So nice of you to help the kitty cross the bridge. I understand your pain......Kay: just as a point in fact, out of my last batch of 4 rescues (they always showed up in batches of 4 for some reason), 3 were allergic to turkey. Not chicken, but turkey. Won't go into the drama of how I found this out, but it cost thousands of dollars and much pain and anguish to determine by tests that turkey was one of the main allergens that was causing the severe symptoms. So many of the Fancy Feast food products have turkey (and wheat) in them, that I am down to just 2 flavors that one of my remaining allergy cats can/will eat. In my case, the allergy didn't develop until they were around 9-10 years old. It's just something to be on the watch for. People don't think about food allergies for cats, but they are very susceptible, particularly with this "modern" canned food where the ingredients are from God knows where ...............Maryl
Julia WV (6b)
4 years ago
Your a very special person Kay. Not many give of themselves to help. I hope you can find good homes for the kittens. Love the names you've given the cats.

Julia
shive
4 years ago
Good luck taming your feral kittens! I still have two of our four who after 10 years that are pretty wild. ( I can't believe they're all still here after that long.) It sounds like you're having better luck than I did.

Debra
sherrygirl zone5 N il
4 years ago
There are no feral cats around here. That’s probably good because we have cat allergies in the family. I have four shih tzus, you guys understand, another animal needed a home, didn’t plan on having so many. Two of the dogs came from a friend, one was rescued as a puppy and the oldest we got from a breeder when she was 6 months old. She was supposed to be a breed dog and was kept in a crate almost 24/7. No way for a puppy to live. She’s a happy 14 yo dog now.

Sherry
organic_kitten
Original Author
4 years ago
Well Debra, I am handling them every day and cuddling them, Debra. their eyes have just opened and their mama does not seem at all concerned that I pick them up. Since he is right there, I think she would display any unhappiness. We have tamed a litter and adopted them out before, but they do have to be handled a lot to tame them which is why we arranged to move them into the age in my sewing room. When she weans them, we will neuter her and they will be freed more in the house. When they are old enoug, and friendly enough, we will attempt to adopt them out. We already have someone who wants one of them. Sherry, we both have allergies to cats, but not horrendous ones (sniffles, and I can't hold a cat I am not around all the time or my eyes will swell..) Most of the cats I feed are willing to be petted some of the time. I think it is the turkey and chicken they love so. Good grief, Celeste! Allergic to turkey! What a bad allergy for a cat.

kay
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
4 years ago
Kay: I hope you tell us how all these kittens work out for you. You are absolutely right about cuddling the little kittens. Give one an extra cuddle from your friends on the forum..............Maryl
organic_kitten
Original Author
4 years ago
Sam, that is the neatest story. what did you name your big boy? They all love the chicken and turkey I toss them after hey eat their little Friskies. You would not expect ferals to be picky, but they do not like the fish-based foods and other than chicken and tuna, leave part of it if there is fish in it. My spouse and I have been vegetarian for years, but I boil chicken breasts and toast turkey breasts for the cats. One of the younger males has separated himself from the rest of the colony and stays on the back deck mainly. Unfortunately, he meows loudly at 5:00 A.M. and we aren't ready to get up that early most of the time since we are retired. I obviously am enjoying the cats even though they prevent me from going anywhere since I feed them twice daily.

kay
shive
4 years ago
Kay - You're lucky you have access to the kittens when they are so young. It is much easier to tame them that way. I didn't start working with my four until they were five or six weeks old. And even then, only two would let me pet them while they were eating. Tuxie, the mother cat, didn't mind me petting them. But apparently she had taught them to fear humans before they came here. Give them a cuddle from me!

Debra
Sam CO z5
4 years ago
That’s funny how they are picky eaters. Cats are so goofy. My cat was Tantor. He was a great companion for me and loved my young kids. Even though I have more cats since, none can compare to him.
Brad KY 6b
4 years ago
I live on a dead end street at the very edge of town. We are a dumping spot for people who want to get rid of cats and don't want to drive far, though we've been spared recently. Most of them are half-starved, scared and mean. I caught some a number of years ago and I got quite shredded up by them. They all had to go to the animal shelter as they were so ferocious. The people at the animal shelter were quite afraid of them they were so bad. Most disappear, probably caught by coyotes or raccoons.

It is a shame as the animal shelter is not that far away.
Nancy 6b
4 years ago
Sam, I love Tantor. Hard to imagine that beauty homeless. He looks like he has personality. Really a good, heartwarming thread
signet_gw(6b)
4 years ago
Love the extra toes on your Tantor.! Dont often see polydactal cats Did he have them on all feet or just the front paws?
Sam CO z5
4 years ago
Hey had them on all 4. He had 8 on each front, and 5 and 6 on his back paws. Nail trims we’re fun!
celeste/NH
4 years ago
I love polydactal cats! In fact, I have one (Zeus) and a grandkitten Juliet. Zeus only has extras in front but Juliet has all fours polydactal. Tantor looks like a sweetie and I can understand why you loved him so.
organic_kitten
Original Author
4 years ago
You are so right, Debra! We really worked to catch them so we could tame the kittens, and knew that they would have to be inside for that to happen... Spatter had spent a good bit of time on the deck in the weeks before she had the kittens. she would climb up on a chaise next to our office window and meow. I would then give her treats or feed her, so she was comfortable on the deck. With all the rain, several cardboard boxes were being held there for burning, and she moved the kittens under the boxes. So, we were able to catch them all.

Sam, Tantor was a beauty and I love his paws. How long were you able to enjoy him?

Celeste, it is neat that you also have a polydactyl cat. One of ours was also, but only one paw. Is your gray beauty still with you?

Brad that is so sad. The cats would have had a chance if they were delivered to the shelter before they went wild. People are lazy and shamed at giving up an animal, so they tell themselves that cats can live on their own, never thinking about the birds that would be killed if that were true and the thinness of the cats shows the lie of that thinking.

kay
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
4 years ago
last modified: 4 years ago
What a beautiful cat Tantor is. I've had a lot of fur babies over my life, but Tabby's have been some of my best (note my Avatar, Yardley). Just love them........Maryl
celeste/NH
4 years ago
Kay, YES.....I still have Zeus. He turned 12 this month and is starting to get cranky with the other cats and is very needy with me now. He has to sit on my lap the second I sit down, even now as I am at my computer! Here's a pic of his double paws:
Sam CO z5
4 years ago
Zeus has such cute feet! Maryl, I love tabbies too. They’re such sweet souls. Kay, sounds like you’ve got you’re hands full with those babies! How fun. I miss having kittens around. My current two are 3 years old now, and while sweet, are pretty lazy. I had my Tantor about 10 years. He passed away suddenly after getting a dental cleaning. I was so devastated, but was just happy to have him for the time I did.
organic_kitten
Original Author
4 years ago
Celeste, Zeus is a beauty, and I miss my gey beauties! I had two that were Korets, Smoky ana Sylvester and who had so much personality. One of these kittens is grey and it is so tempting to keep her (at least I think it is a her). I am supposed to have homes for two of them already, so just one to go. Same, I am looking forward to the playfulness when the kittens are just a bit bigger. Eyes are fully open now, and Spatter (mom) doesn't seem very upset even if I take one out of the room. I think she is trusting me. And when you lose a much-loved furbaby, it is incredibly hard. so I feel for your loss of Tantor.

kay
djacob Z6a SE WI
4 years ago
Wow! Am I happy to have found this thread! Maybe there should be a cat forum! Haha...I have also done TNR for about 20 years now. Have rescued, trapped and neutered over 50 cats at least. It started in my own yard, but then people in the neighborhood heard I was helping cats and so I helped many, many other people over time. Most recent rescue was last fall during a pouring rain....there was a tiny kitten at a neighbors house. Myself, the neighbor and another neighbor literally ran around two houses,slipping and falling in the mud in the gardens and getting scratched up by bushes and low hanging branches. We almost gave up, but all of a sudden she lodged herself between the back porch and an outdoor cathouse (of all things) we threw a towel over her and were able to swaddle her up in it. We got her back to my house thinking she would be hissing and spitting, but we’re we surprised! As soon as we touched her she purred and melted in our arms! One of the neighbors adopted her and named her “Khalo.”

My own group at my house have it good. They have been with me for 16, 15, 14, and the newest 2 years. They have an enclosed heated porch with heated beds in the winter. Two of them receive regular vet care and vaccinations. Mom, at 16 is tough to get. I can pet her brush her play with her and she even jumps up on the couch to get head scratches. But—-I have trouble just getting flea meds on her. At 16, she‘s very healthy. I will get her to a vet when or if needed. I recently had to cross my oldest male, Braveheart due to hyperthyroidism. He could not be given medication due to his shyness. It was an extremely difficult loss. The cats I have now all have house privileges. One of the girls sleeps with me.

Braveheart

Jingle

Snow, the mother

Kibble

Seurat, the 2 year old
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
4 years ago
Enjoy hearing stories like this. If only people could be educated into spaying or neutering their cats so that more don't need to be rescued.............Maryl
celeste/NH
4 years ago
djacob….Beautiful, well-cared for cats and God bless you for your kindness! I am sorry for your loss of Braveheart. What a handsome guy he was! Take comfort in the knowledge that you gave him a great life. Without your intervention, who knows what struggles he would have endured. Your cats look amazing at their ages so you are clearly giving them lots of TLC. I am so glad you joined in and shared with us!

We have another forum friend who helps the ferals and does TNR....Samhain (Alex). I hope she sees this and joins in. I love that so many of us are not only devoted to our daylilies and gardens, but to helping our furry friends:)
Sam CO z5
4 years ago
djacob, what beautiful cats! That’s so wonderful what you’ve done for the cats in your area. Thank you!
organic_kitten
Original Author
4 years ago
djacob, You have some beautiful cats.Braveheart was a lovely bo and I am sure you miss him. , Jingle is gorgeous; Snow and Kibble are beautiful B&Ws and remind me of my Bosky and Horton who are apparently father and son and have the same beautiful B&W coloring. Seurat has pretty markings. I feel so sad for the cats that are discarded or who are born without a home.

kay
HU-556768069
2 years ago
I am not a cat lover or hater, but you should not feed feral cats. I have a problem with my neighbor doing that. She feeds them and they tear up my yard by crapping in it. I am continually chasing them away. Right now She has 8 and two kittens.I wonder how many of your neighbors are tired of you keeping them around. It is so frustrating to go out in the morning and smell cat poo.
organic_kitten
Original Author
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
I am sorry you do not like cats. As it happens, I live in a neighborhood where there are several people who feed cats and we have no problems with them. My feral females are all neutered which eliminates many problems and a lot of noise. I have no intention of not feeding these cats despite your advice. It does not apply here. You might notice that your opinion is quite different than the others posted here.

kay
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
I lost my last furry baby in July. We've never been without a herd of "children" so it has been a sad time for us. A friend of mine said that God will send me what He will send me even though we know we are too old to adopt. Sure enough a week ago a feral young cat (5-8 months) showed up living under our shed. It hasn't left. All my cats have been rescues, but none have been totally feral, so now we must figure out how to trap it and make sure it's spayed or neutered. We haven't got a clue how to do this but in the mean time, we are feeding "BOB" (the cat)........ I must say in all our worries about this poor animals situation with winter coming on, the state of our grass and dirt did not occur to us........................Maryl
organic_kitten
Original Author
2 years ago
Feed him regularly and call him by the name you have given him. Nearly all of my feral cats like the food (they get chicken for treats) and I have beds for them which it is becoming cool enough to be even more popular. After feeding a bit, and hearing their names, they start winding around your legs and rolling to be petted. Then you can trap them or scoop them into a carrier and to the vet. Many of my feral cats are now house cats. Good luck Maryl.

kay
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
2 years ago
Thanks Kay. I know how kind some of our group is about rescuing animals that stray onto their property. Bob is at least coming up on the back porch now to eat and we have a live trap in the vicinity for him to get used to so we can eventually get Bob (or Bobette) to the vet to be spayed or neutered. Fingers crossed..............Maryl
Nancy 6b
2 years ago
I did not know our area had feral colonies for a long time. Then I found out there was one near a heavily traveled road in a heavily thicketed area.. some people regularly fed them and they actually looked pretty healthy. I was surprised to find the area bulldozed and preparing for a new pharmacy. I hope they trapped the cats first, but could not find out.
shive
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Maryl - I got my feral kittens spayed and neutered by leaving a carrier on the back porch and putting cat treats inside for them for a couple of weeks before my vet appointment. I was only trying to get two of the females trapped first, but Zuzu went right in there with them and the vet agreed to neuter him at the same time the girls were getting spayed. Good luck with Bob!

Debra
organic_kitten
Original Author
2 years ago
I put pieces of turkey in my carrier and caught them that way.
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
2 years ago
Bob is still streaking across the back yard whenever he senses humans. Yardley (my avatar) and many others I've picked up off the streets had been obviously dumped by their owners so they had had human contact of some kind. This being totally wild is new to us. The live cage we had wasn't big enough so we are waiting for a new one to arrive from Amazon. Then we will start with the tidbits as you all suggested to lure Bob in. In the meantime Bob could decide to go elsewhere of course. I'll keep everyone posted on Bob's progress, and appreciate the encouragement.................Maryl
organic_kitten
Original Author
2 years ago
Good luck with your venture, It is surprising how even very skittish feral cats can be tamesd by good treats.

kay
Nancy 6b
2 years ago
It can be done. I had a feral cat turn up with a broken front leg. I had no luck trapping him and his leg below the break fell off. I fed him, dosing him with antibiotics. It took months for him to let me touch him, and more months before he would let me pick him up. I had just made an appointment to get him neutered. I saw him staring off in the distance and that was the last I saw of him. Still kicking myself for not getting him fixed earlier. He still pretended he did not like me to touch him, but once you scratched his chin he would start purring.
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
2 years ago
What a story Nancy. You did a heroic job of dosing a wild cat with antibiotics. Even if he got away in the end, you did your part on helping one of God's creatures. We will leave the future of that cat to Him, but many "attaboys" for helping him in the here and now so to speak..................Maryl
organic_kitten
Original Author
2 years ago
Ah Nancy! I hate that this boy didn't come back. It is so hard when that happens. I fed Higgins, a stray at the same time I was feeding Bella who is now one of the house cats. Originally just tossing turkey in their direction terrified them. eventually I would put turkey in the carrier and when one went in, take it to the vet. Higgins also hurt his leg so we trapped him and took him to the vet. First she allowed him to escape and we had to chase the poor cat around Then she kept him out too long and he died. Heartbreak. She was sweet but n good vet.

kay
Nancy 6b
2 years ago
Kay, I had talked to 2 different vets about bringing in a feral. I wondered if maybe they did not like dealing with ferals. Both discouraged me from bringing him in, that ferals did not handle being caged and often died of stress. But as mentioned before, ferals are often trapped to be neutered and released. That is one reason I did not try harder to trap him. From a cat I have that has seizures, I can tell that vets are not experienced with handling that problem. One vet told me cats do not have seizures.
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Cats CAN have seizures from stress. Even non feral ones. My 13 year old big boy began to seize up in the car coming back from his annuals at the Vet. Turned out he was going deaf and his inner ear balance was off. No more car rides or vets for him. He lived to be almost 18 without going back............ It is something that causes me concern with Bob. He ventured into the large kennel today and my DH shut the door on him. He went bonkers even in this large space. Never calmed down. We've contacted a vet that does ferals, so maybe there is hope later on..........Maryl
organic_kitten
Original Author
2 years ago
In my experience with feral cats, If you crate a feral, (or even a domestic cat) they do much better if you cover the crate with a large towel or blanket. especially when transporting. I suppose I am fortunate to have a vet that has no problem neutering feral cats. (There is hope for Bob, Maryl) I have several formerly feral cats that are now inside cats...more notably Bella, Gus, and Bosky. Bosky sneaked out once after we brought him inside (he was injured by older dominate males and badly needed treatment). He then sneaked back inside that same day and has never attempted to leave again. We had him neutered while he was being treated for the leg wound, of course.

I couldn't stand for the very feral but beautiful Bella to live as a feral cat and Bella has been an indoor cat for several years now. As it turns out, she would probably be dead otherwise since she had a tumor in her ear that was infected last year and she would have died without surgery.. The previously feral cats are very loving and seem to be happy as house cats.

Of course then there is Gus. He was attacked by a pack of dogs and we took him to the vet where he was shaved and treated for his many wounds. DH said he wasn't going back outside after the rather expensive surgery, and Gus has never tried to escape the house.

One other thing, after neutering, we put the feral cats in a large dog crate for recovery (put a little mulch or dirt on top of a small litter box and they will use it). We have water in the crate, of course, and feed them in it a couple times a day. After recovery, we free them and they have always stayed around as if nothing had happened. We kept Spatter in the crate until she weaned her kittens, then had her neutered, she had time to heal then was released. She stays around here still and eats here almost 2 years later.

I must admit that I earn the Crazy Cat Lady title.

kay
djacob Z6a SE WI
2 years ago
HU, I have discussed the the cats with many neighbors and they are all supportive of the “trap-neuter-return” method. I offer to clean any areas in their yards if my cats soil there. I wonder how you feel about community/abandoned/ stray dogs??? Peoples positions seem to always change when it comes to dogs. It’s not ok for them to be outside, roaming, looking for food and shelter and yet when it comes to cats, it seems to be ok. Wonder why that is????

debra
Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
2 years ago
last modified: 2 years ago
Sorry djacobz that the homeless cats are such a problem for you. "In a perfect world every cat would have a home and every home would have a cat".........As to the difference between a feral dog roaming the streets and a feral cat, you really can't figure out that difference?................Maryl