here is the final mud pan

Why would someone bury it? Good question for the installer. It should not be buried. There should not be a liner under the mud since they are doing kerdi. The kerdi goes on top of the mud. By the way, that doesn't look like deck mud.

I've seen other YouTube folks mud over the drain. but I can ask. Also I think he was just saying to put a liner between the wood and the mud so water isn't Drawn from the mud.

As far as the 48 hour test the builder says he usually tiles before waterproofing the pan so they aren't standing on the membrane. So when is the best time to do the flood test?

Also what is deck mud and why doesn't that look like deck mud? see photos of what they used.

You mean he tiles the walls before doing the flood test? That's fine. Tile walls except for the lowest row or two, put kerdi membrane on floor and curb, do flood test, tile floor, then tile bottom row(s) of walls. I like to bring the membrane over the curb and down onto the floor outside the shower for a bit.

I still don't know what exactly you mean by a liner.

That looks way too wet for dry pack deck mud.

I did some research and it looks like this is the type of mud. And per the specs its not supposed to be installed on plywood like was done here.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/MAPEI-4-to-1-Mud-Bed-Mix-55-lb-Indoor-Outdoor-Floor-Patch/3115749?cm_mmc=shp--c--prd--flr--google--lia----groutmortarandsealers--3115749-_-0&store_code=1983&placeholder=null&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=CjwKCAiAis3vBRBdEiwAHXB29KkCuTJrgHykMy5Led9cKh6YwRRT7ccapAaRO6BG3QHfTXh9uo2ztxoCsA4QAvD_BwE

As stated above, you can use deck mud over plywood as long as you use a cleavage membrane (slip sheet) and wire mesh (lath). My concern is that they added too much water. And the problem with the drain. How are they going to make that waterproof now? The mud should be flush with the outside ring of the drain, leaving all of the fleece exposed. The kerdi then goes on top of the fleece.

Get the shower system installation handbook from schluter. Go to schluter.com, choose resources, then downloads, then under document type choose handbooks. There is a long list of handbooks. Choose shower system installation handbook, and on page 25 you can see how the drain is supposed to be installed in a mud floor (rather than using their foam tray).

The only YouTube tile pro I watch is Sal Diblasi. If you venture too far online, you’ll go down a rabbit hole of mis-information.

It’s good you’re being proactive, but it might be best to stop this work (show contractor why by citing the Schluter instructions). Then ask the GC to hire a real pro who has experience and will follow instructions.

I’m not a pro, but I did learn a lot from Sal Diblasi, the TCNA handbook, and by checking out some DIY books. One thing I learned is that the whole shower enclosure should be waterproof before the first tile goes up. In theory you could shower in it with no tile because the waterproofing part of the job is done. The tile and grout are not waterproof. They cannot do a valid flood test if they put tile down on the floor first. Well I guess they could, but that would be stupid.

So no matter what mud they use you need a liner? apparently they used this on the bottom. Sakrete.

It looks like you don't really know what they used to make the mud. The photo you showed above is not Sakrete. So where did the photo come from? The use of a liner is not dependent on how the mud is mixed, but rather on the method of the shower construction. Traditional shower construction uses a shower pan liner on top of a mortar bed preslope, and is then topped with another sloped mud bed. It uses a 2-piece clamping drain. Your shower is being constructed using kerdi, which is a surface-applied membrane. There is no preslope and no liner. The membrane is on top of the sloped mortar bed You must use a flanged (not 2-piece clamping) drain with this method.

" One thing I learned is that the whole shower enclosure should be waterproof before the first tile goes up" That is not true. It is perfectly acceptable, and I would argue actually preferable to tile the walls before installing the sloped mortar bed and membrane. However, it is true that with complete, proper waterproofing the shower would be waterproof without any tile. It's just that I don't complete the waterproofing until I've completed (including grout) most of the wall tiling.

"you can use deck mud over plywood as long as you use a cleavage membrane (slip sheet) and wire mesh (lath)."

That is one method.

A bonded bed method using a slurry coat of modified will allow for less of a minimum thickness requirement at the drain. 3/4"

OP needs to get off of YouTube and go to the manufacturer. Not taking away from the suggestion above to watch Sal DiBlasi's videos as he is friend of mine. The OP needs Shluters direct input to deal with the contractor.

catbuilder gave a perfect example of the OP stating what they had learned on youtube only to be corrected. Some folks prefer walls completed prior to base.

Good morning CTEC ! You are making me break out my TCNA bible and looking for that method number:):) I know we've spoke about that just recenty. Oh buddy

Sorry for the delay MInt. page 56 Detail F101-19, page 70 Detail F112-19 Look under Requirements. It will show the 3/4" minimum. It is often easier to go directly to page 457 which is the Method Locator by Application. At times it will be listed on manufacturers sites such as Laticrete. In the details it will list two min. thickness numbers. one for bonded & unbonded.

Hope this answered your question. As always feel free to contact me. Best

Scroll to diagrams at bottom of link.

https://www.masterwholesale.com/media/HBDLDS0350.pdf

If theres one thing I know, you cant debate w CTEC lifetime of mastery in the tile game. much respect CTEC :)

Thanks everyone for the input. My contractor said he would review the ANSI regulations to determine if it was done correctly. CTEC is there any place that I can view find the TCNA info online to show my contractor? Or do I have to buy it?

Also I have left a voicemail with the regional schluter rep as well so hopefully he will call today.

I see in that laticrete document that they quote bonded and unbonded over the plywood. Yet both have a membrane. I thought bonded meant it was bonded to floor, but I guess is that just the type of mud?

So the builder ended up removing the shower pan and we are going over all the key metrics before starting again. I am also looking at other installers as well. One I met with yesterday uses all Wedi products and therefore doesn't use a mortar base. Is this the safer way to go since it's probably easier than doing a custom mud bed? Also, how does Wedi compare to Schluter?

As far as specifying out what the current tile guy should do. I have a few questions. The shower is 6'x~3'. What mesh lathe should I use, do I need the larger material to get better bonding vs the fine grated mesh? Also, the builder states that the lathe should be cut 1" from the walls. Based on my knowledge I have no idea why lathe wouldn't be used at the thickest part of the mortar bed, is there a reason for cutting this short? (They set the original over an inch for the wall, I wonder if this is just them saying they did it correctly in the first place)

• slip membrane on floor only (not up the wall) (or is it better to leave out the slip membrane and choose an appropriate mud that will bond to plywood?)
• Bed thickness 1 1/4" at drain
• 2 - 2 1/2" thick at curb
• Curb height 3 1/4"
• There will be a flood test for 24-36 hours after a 24-48hr dry time.

Is there anything else I need to specifically call out?

Mint Tile. thanks for the info. I actually did talk to Schluter on multiple occasions. And they directed me to the local rep who was far from helpful. He didn't know a lot of the technical specs I was looking for.

Also, any thoughts on leaving a 1in gap of metal lathe at the edges of the pan?

So the lathe shouldn't touch the walls, but it would be close, right? Per this video it looks quite close sub 1/2". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaPHoYkU-U They also state that it should be stapled to the floor, is that okay?

Also, I think you lost me, I only see one lathe placed before the mud bed goes down. Where does the other wire mesh go?

Also, one more question for the floor outside the bathroom. When placing hardie board on top of subfloor for tile, do you have to thinset it, or is it okay to not thinset it?

'When placing hardie board on top of subfloor for tile, do you have to thinset it, or is it okay to not thinset it?'

What did Hardie state in their installation instructions which is easily available on their website??

Yes, they have it on there, and for some reason my GC didn't think that needed to be followed. We are going to pull everything out, of the shower, and carefully remove the hardieboard on the floor to redo it. We also are going to replace the tile installer with a new one, that we picked.

Just and update here are some photos of the new tiler. His work looks much more professional.

make sure they seal all the kerdi punctures when they remove the wood blocking. Also is the niche waterproofing done? It looks like there is membrane on the bottom but not on the sides/top and corners. Seems like you could do the flood test right now

Yes they have started patching the holes from the wood. And the photos with the green board showing aren’t finished around the niche. But there is a photo with the tile that shows it finished. They used a Kerdi niche, and it looks like you only need to membrane around the flange.

We are finally done, please see the finished product minus the glass

Not a fan of a few choices there, but I must say it has come together nicely and looks good!

Love it ...i wonder why people dont just use a shower tray ..so much simpler !

Choices design-wise? and You mean a fiberglass shower tray vs tile?

Yes ..mine has a very small step over ..never had a problem with them.. have had several..and a lot easier to clean that tile ...you can even get them now that they look like slate .

Looks great!

"The only YouTube tile pro I watch is Sal Diblasi.."

Meh. I saw a video where he just plunks the CBU down on top of the tub deck and installs it instead of leaving a small gap as you're supposed to.

He's clearly done this kind of work before but he's not detail-oriented. There are better videos on this out there on this from other people.

"There are better videos on this out there on this from other people."

Please provide other videos to look for. That would be helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NS6TPiHaN2Y

Also another guy with a Eastern European accent (can't locate the video right now).

DiBlasio is the last place I would go for a methodical, detail oriented explanation of how to do anything.

funny as Sal has the entire Pro tile industry behind him

@john watson. Thank you for the link. I did take the time to watch it. I came away with I would not let this person do any tile work. Let me explain the reasons. The first laughable statement was the Kerdi board is very rigid. Actually it is the weakest of all foam boards on the market. Why do you think there are washers. Because the screws will blow through it. Not saying it doesn't work as stated. Next he set the wall board on the top of the tile flange. The studs are to be shimmed so the board is in front of the flange. He stated himself the fiberglass tub flexes and he has just spanned a movement joint and bonded tile to both surfaces. He showed and stated the board on the valve wall is way out of plumb. That gets fixed before the board goes up. To late now. Said the Kerdi 5" band is 4". As for setting tile he does not even know the basics. Not once did he key in the mortar prior to using a gauging trowel. It specifies that requirement on every bag of thinset mortar sold. So much for a good bond. Mortar for band was spread with a taping / putty knife. No gauged trowel to assure the proper amount of mortar. No pipe seal or caulk around cut out at filler. Gauging trowel ridges needed to be perpendicular to the long edge of the tile so air escapes easier due to the shorter distance and ridges fully collapse when setting tile and shifting it side to side. Which was not done either. Basically all the tile he installed is poorly bonded. Great video through NTCA called "trowel and error". No need to take my word. Watch it. To top it all off when it came to caulking he clearly does not understand what caulking is used for and how it functions. Caulking changes in plane allows for movement. This guy grouted and caulked over the top!! Says he likes to have something solid behind the caulk which is the exact opposite of what is required. The joints should be fully open. Not even thinset mortar in them. Actually according to TCNA details there should be backer rod in those vertical corners so the sealant does NOT bond to anything In the back. Sealant bonds to two surfaces and stretches / flexes between them. Once you bond to a third point you have restricted the flexibility. The technique that was used to apply the sealant was also poor as it spreads sealant to the sides. Placing a neat bead, spraying and shaping eliminates widening caulk residue and leaves a perfect bead. Mixing mortar in a clients home with the new silica laws will get you sued big time. Mortar under glass is not ridges but smoothed so the ridges don't show through the glass or in the joints. There is more but I'm done typing. Probably be having a beer with Sal again someday soon.

Thanks for the link John. I appreciated the entertainment value:)

John I'm also trying to understand how yourself as a DIY'er who was asking for assistance 7 months ago on Houzz with the most basic of questions can criticize a Tile Setter with well over 30 years experience. You must have learned a lot on that 1 tub surround. Then again if you followed the guy you provided the link to you didn't learn anything about proper tile installations.

I forgot to mention above the guy didn't even install the tub level. Instead said the floor was out. Just comical.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5776217/tub-hardie-backer-spacing-problem

"funny as Sal has the entire Pro industry behind him"

Meh. You can have him then. I gave him a shot but after I saw this dubious video I was over him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOSxGaDFfuI

"John I'm also trying to understand how yourself as a DIY'er who was asking for assistance 7 months ago on Houzz with the most basic of questions can criticize a Tile Setter with well over 30 years experience. "

Actually I'm the intended target audience for these type of videos so I'm the perfect person to critique them. And the videos are poorly produced with bad sound quality and not enough instruction about what is actually going on. Fail.

And I don't have anything against the man but to me he's just one of many people out there making how to videos on the web -- not the demigod you fanboys have presented him to be.

you would have to have a grasp on ANSI, TCNA, and all CURRENT mfg limitations from about 15 major mfg of tile products and perhaps a decade or 3 hands on the tile tools to get it sir, i give you A pass for that:)

Perhaps consider the tradesman may know which you tube videos are more credible, I could care less if the sound is off or it's filmed in black & white. It's the content that matters. Yes you are correct. You are the target audience. The link you posted had great video quality and sound. Unfortunately it showed how NOT to install tile in a very detailed way. Yet it got you hook, line & sinker. We can clearly see how those priorities are working out for you. Remember anyone can make a video. How do you determine which ones are legitimate? Seriously.

I did not present Sal to be anything more than a highly experienced Tile Setter.

Keep in mind you commented on this thread specifically to speak out against Sal's videos. No other reason.

Then followed it up with one of your preferred links which provides completely bad information. That speaks to your credibility the danger of online forums and the you tube mine field that claimed another victim.

Read the youtube comments under the link I posted...PLENTY of people called him out on his incorrect statement that you MUST bring the backer board over the lip.

Here is the video from the youtuber I was trying to remember the other day.

THIS is how you make a great DIY video that people don't log off of after 15 seconds. Notice that he speaks slowly and enunciates clearly. And the camera only moves around when necessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OODB_RyxJm4

So you found another video doing things incorrectly. Just proving my point about youtube.

"his incorrect statement that you MUST bring the backer board over the lip. "

That is a factual statement. It is the only approved detail, TCNA (Tile Council of North America) #B413-19, B411-19,B440-19. B412-19, B419-19, B425-19,B430-19, What do you have to back up your point? The tub manufacturers diagram is not approved by TCNA.

I'm using facts that are verified in writing. You are believing misinformation on youtube.

Meh. I saw a video where he just plunks the CBU down on top of the tub deck and installs it instead of leaving a small gap as you're supposed to.

You provided above the link to the video you had issues with. First there is not a CBU in the video. CBU stands for cement backer unit. He is working with a foam board.

He talks about CBU's and states to leave a gap for sealant and also states sealant with the foam board. Don't care who calls him out.

I'll stick to facts. I'm trying to show you the bad information that's out there. Yet you insist on believing it. For one moment did you consider Sal, myself and TCNA are correct? The only point you have proven to me is you would prefer a high quality video with bad information over a poor quality video with correct details.

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5023963/cabinet-and-floor-problem

“Don’t let an almost 80 year old woman out man you. “ LOL!

From zero tools and skills to internet expert In 3 years or less! Courtesy of watching well shot video games instead of doing it.

The TCNA I have shows two approved methods: above the lip and over the lip. Sorry but Sal is not the last word on everything in the tile universe, and I don't understand why some people think he is. Most of the youtubers reemed him for his position the comments section. No one person is right 100% of the time.

Also if you watch the video I posted from TileMasterGA you'll see that he installs a CBU 1/8 inch above the tub lip, not furring it out past the tub lip.

The detail numbers are? Year of book and page # would be fine also.

If there is a approved detail I'm not familiar with I want to know. I have a open mind to learn.

No problem Page 398 B440-19

Yes that is one of the details I listed above which clearly shows the backer board in front of the flange 1/4" above the tube deck to allow for sealant as I have been saying all along. Again you have proved my point and shown you can't read diagrams. I reached out to the NTCA Director of Training to confirm that there is NO detail with board above flange just in case there was a change I was not aware of. He did confirm that there is not. So now you need to accept the FACTS that your new tub surround is not up to industry standards. The videos you recommend are NOT using approved methods and you falsely accused someone of not following proper methods when they were. I've tried to remain professional and stick to facts but I feel you have a serious disconnect from reality. I'm done with this thread. Apologies to the original poster Greg.

Wrong. Look at the diagram on that page. It does not say "shim as required" like the other ones. That means it's not shimmed out over the lip.

And regardless of what Sal seems to believe, you can do a proper transition between lip and CBU hanging above the lip. You just leave a little slack in the fabric to accommodate for any movement between the two different materials. Watching his videos I got the feeling that he didn't really understand how this is done.

"So now you need to accept the FACTS that your new tub surround is not up to industry standards."

Back up. I didn't do it this way. I had to bring mine over but that was only because I wanted to shorten the length of my tub valve for appearances sake, not because of anything in that video.

Regardless of how I did it both ways are fine if done right and I think you and he are doing a big disservice to people telling them otherwise. Bullnose is hard to find and gutting the whole room because it has been shimmed out so far that it won't work with the existing drywall is not an option for many. And in a small bathroom there is a space consideration if you're suddenly losing a whole inch or more of room space because of shimming.

Well I have to admit I have watched some more of Sal's videos and I misjudged him. He does know what he is doing. The speeded up style of the videos threw my off initially but I got used to it as I watched more of them.

I still disagree that you cannot end the CBU above the flange but I am willing to let that issue go for the sake of peace.